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Q: Ancient China, is it really 5000 years old?
I have asked loads of chinese people when i first came here but I haven't recieved an answer. (That makes a modicum of sense)
we have all heard it and most likely moan at the mention of it but why do they believe their civilization is 5000 years old, I know all about the warring periods, spring, ya da ya da ya da.
I have tried to explain that people in those periods did not refer to themselves as 中国人 so how is chinese history 5000 years old, sure they are related but is it not akin to calling the US a greek colony?
Let's start with fairly state-of-the art history & archeology about various civilizations
If we put the start of a given civilization at "went beyond Neolithic era and started to grow food, build villages and write", well, things are happening in what is China nowadays, with Asian-looking people, 5000 years ago. Fact.
Is it unique ? Hardly, true for any place with humans and fit for basic agriculture. Are we talking of interrupted continuity ? Then how you define when things stops to be continuous and not ? But that's too much thinking, no way, repeat "5000 years", smile, and be done with it. The teacher said it, it gives me a good feel, that's good like that.
ScotsAlan:
Good post. But this is year zero for sinobears Yangism. All hail Sinobear. All hail Yang. My future is secure. I have seen the light. Sinobear and Yang have illuminated my live..... now feck them... I believe :)
RiriRiri:
You can ignore the Xia and Shang dynasties.
They are legends, not supported by any hard evidence whatsoever but somehow scholars accepted them, proving if anything the effectiveness of the Coue method. No serious historian would have ever considered taking them into account seriously if not of course for political agenda.
- The only proofs of their supposed existence are old history books, mainly from the historian Sima Qian, who lived around 2000 years AFTER the facts. Oh and did I mention those stories were full of magic and superpowers?
So now, knowing how any story can turn to bullshit in an hours time even in modern China, I just don't want to know on what standards and research procedures those "records" were written. So look, here goes, Scandinavia is 10000 years old because Thor came to power and rid the earth of the trolls and Italy was shaped by Zeus as a comfortable legging (I'll leave to your imagination where my lore puts Switzerland) in about forever BC because I say so, who cares I'm just writing what the history could be a thousand years from now if we adopt Chinese methods.
DrMonkey:
@Riririri Shang Dynasty left a clear archeological trail, it's not just writings of an Antiquity-era historian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty
Xia Dynasty, however, is controversial : there's only a paper trail, no clear, unambiguous archeological trail (ie. a set of artifact with estimated date and a consistent style, manufacturing methods, etc.). There were people building stuffs in what is China nowadays back then, but we know close to nothing about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia%E2%80%93Shang%E2%80%93Zhou_Chronology_Project
Whats more to the point, If the first 4901 years were so great, why did the Yangists go to the trouble of having a revolution? (edited)
fada:
Even with the advent of yangism around 500bc that still leaves 2500 years of people sharing the same identity that are missing, I'm sure they will turn up behind the sofa or something when they move house.
5000 years and darn near got the spitting 'n yelling perfected. colour me impressed !!!
Let's start with fairly state-of-the art history & archeology about various civilizations
If we put the start of a given civilization at "went beyond Neolithic era and started to grow food, build villages and write", well, things are happening in what is China nowadays, with Asian-looking people, 5000 years ago. Fact.
Is it unique ? Hardly, true for any place with humans and fit for basic agriculture. Are we talking of interrupted continuity ? Then how you define when things stops to be continuous and not ? But that's too much thinking, no way, repeat "5000 years", smile, and be done with it. The teacher said it, it gives me a good feel, that's good like that.
ScotsAlan:
Good post. But this is year zero for sinobears Yangism. All hail Sinobear. All hail Yang. My future is secure. I have seen the light. Sinobear and Yang have illuminated my live..... now feck them... I believe :)
RiriRiri:
You can ignore the Xia and Shang dynasties.
They are legends, not supported by any hard evidence whatsoever but somehow scholars accepted them, proving if anything the effectiveness of the Coue method. No serious historian would have ever considered taking them into account seriously if not of course for political agenda.
- The only proofs of their supposed existence are old history books, mainly from the historian Sima Qian, who lived around 2000 years AFTER the facts. Oh and did I mention those stories were full of magic and superpowers?
So now, knowing how any story can turn to bullshit in an hours time even in modern China, I just don't want to know on what standards and research procedures those "records" were written. So look, here goes, Scandinavia is 10000 years old because Thor came to power and rid the earth of the trolls and Italy was shaped by Zeus as a comfortable legging (I'll leave to your imagination where my lore puts Switzerland) in about forever BC because I say so, who cares I'm just writing what the history could be a thousand years from now if we adopt Chinese methods.
DrMonkey:
@Riririri Shang Dynasty left a clear archeological trail, it's not just writings of an Antiquity-era historian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty
Xia Dynasty, however, is controversial : there's only a paper trail, no clear, unambiguous archeological trail (ie. a set of artifact with estimated date and a consistent style, manufacturing methods, etc.). There were people building stuffs in what is China nowadays back then, but we know close to nothing about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia%E2%80%93Shang%E2%80%93Zhou_Chronology_Project
In the same sense that EVERY populated area of Earth is 5,000 years old, yes. But if you mean 5,000 years old in any meaningful sense that excludes other countries, then no.
Of course there were people here 5,000 years ago. They just weren't the same ethnicity, didn't speak the same language, and didn't consider this area to be "China". They probably also weren't nationalistic drones.
Almost all populated areas of Earth have experienced invasions, divisions, takeovers, and changes in language, ethnicity and culture dating back far into prehistory. What makes China special is that Chinese people don't understand what historical records or evidence are. Stories are assumed to be factual to the extent that they praise China.
China's oldest written records are less than 3,000 years old, so what "5,000 years of history" means is anyone's guess. But let's face it - As laowai, there are things we simply "don't understand" about "Chinese culture". Such as how Chinese people know things without doing research. It boggles our small minds.
Perhaps we all (Chinese and foreign) just need to reach a compromise and acknowledge that China's culture is older than Antarctica's. I hope that will keep everyone happy.
Whenever i hear the 5000-years line, i always think to myself... "so you guys have had five millenia to get your shit together, and you still behave like THIS?". Out of tact, i haven't said it out loud, but there are times when i'm very tempted to do just that.
Mateusz:
The U.S. has many (many) issues, but in less than 250 years of history, at least they sorted out where people should, and should not, defecate.
Of course you won't get an answer as its utter bollocks!
Every where humans gathered has 5000 years of history.
It's just another sinocentric egotistical parroted propaganda phrase.
It sets the Chinese apart from other so-called cultures as being special and superior.
Just look at the absolute arse that is the Chinese argument that they evolved in isolation from other humans and never migrated from Africa's rift valley like any other non-African peoples. So therefore special and different.
DNA research has proved this to be total and utter bunkum!
Any society that thinks itself as special, different or chosen usually turn out to be a bunch of fascist twats.....oh dear.
Mateusz:
Hmm, I've always accepted that humans all migrated from Africa... I hadn't heard the idea that Chinese evolved separately, but it would totally not surprise me. Chinese bodies are different, and all that. Heh, now I want to ask some Chiense about it, and see what they say.
BlightyMatt:
Yeah, its true I'm afraid...
http://www.theworldofchinese.com/article/the-peking-man-delusion/
"Ask the average Chinese person who they evolved from, and the likely answer is “Peking man”. Suggest an African ancestor in response, and whole gamut of reactions to this bizarre notion is likely to surface. Ms. Zhang Yanfang, a 67-year-old Beijinger and retired office manager, on learning of the Africa theory, replied that she was not even aware such a hypothesis existed, “I’ve never heard of such a thing,” Zhang replied, saying that she grew up learning, like every other Chinese person, that she descended from the Peking man. “I think it’s quite unlikely that we are related to Africans; the difference is too great in every respect—including that of race.”
