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Q: Anyone ever had an argument with a Chinese over TCM?
I tried. It ended in name-calling.
12 years 26 weeks ago in Health & Safety - China
I studied TCM in Australia until qualified. My religion and beliefs also have similarities to the ideas involved in TCM.
And yes - I've had "arguments" about it - because there is better knowledge of TCM overseas than in China because of the Cultural Destruction - when many practitioners were herded up and.... made unhappy - and when all the schools and books were destroyed.
Of course any argument about TCM will end up in name calling - YOU started it! You started it by basically saying "You're a moron for believing such crap... here's why western medicine is SOOOOOO much better!" IFF you had've left well enough alone, and NOT needed to even get into the debate in the first place, then it wouldn't have gone the way it did.
For TCM to be effectively and scientifically proven (or not), a lot of circumstances need to be implemented - the sorts of things that the western scientific community would say completely undermines the scientific approach - because that community REFUSES to believe that we humans do actually have an influence on things that should be 'objectively' real.... not sorry to tell you gang - 'objectivity' and 'subjectivity' aren't 2 categories that can be nicely divided - and neither can the nature of the universe in such a way!
when you try to engage in an intelligent conversation with a local about any aspect in china , you must only say good things about china. pointing out any negative fact about china is considered attacking chinese culture and people. even if it is the truth and a well known fact you must not mention it , all about face.
Seems like there was a rather heated discussion about TCM on here not too long ago.
My experience with TCM, WM and no medicine:
Got a cold.
1- Took Comptrex.. Symptoms gone in 10 h ours. 
2-Took nothing. Symptoms gone in 5 days. 
3- Took TCM. Was sick for two weeks. 
Note: This only reflects the experience of ONE particular foreigner in China and in no way is meant to be understood as a scientific endorsement/refutation of TCM. Experiences may vary. 
1) The problem with TCM is that anybody can practice TCM in China and as a foreigner, if you don't know anything about it, you may be scammed on the product itself.
2) TCM can be as destructive or beneficial for the body as morphine. If a bad Western doctor prescribes you morphine for your pain, but with bad dosage or for too long, you may have disastrous side effects on your body. So does TCM practiced by so-called TCM practicians who are not at all TCM practicians or don't have the experience to practice on their own.
3) TCM doesn't work the same for a Chinese body and for a Western body. Once, I saw a documentary on a TV where two TCM practicians (western and chinese) mentioning that in the case of acupuncture you have to sting and position the needles differently if it's a Western man or a Chinese person.
It's like here when you go to see a Foreign doctor here in China, some are competent, but some are incompetent.
Shining_brow:
I've never noticed a significant difference between a Chinese body and a Western body - not surprisingly. But... there is a difference in mentality, spirituality, emotions, etc etc - and those things WILL have an impact on diagnosis and treatment... As for your #2) - it's true! People can have a bad reaction to morphine and die... people can get poisoned by chinese herbs, or cop a needle into an artery and bleed to death. So, this is correct... (though it can be read in a different way - as Woody did :p)
1)True
2) Stupid argument. The morphine will always do what it was meant to do. Pain relief. It will dull your pain even if you 100% believe it will not work. (garanteed)Your argument about it's harmful effects has got nothing to do with it's relevance as a useful drug. This is one of so many drugs that almost always work and this has been scientifically proven and most people have personaly experienced or known someone who has benifited. Please give me one example of a TCM that pretty much ALWAYS works.
3) All bodies are made up of the same organs, nerves, blood vessels, bones etc. I would say that the only difference between the Westerner and a Chinese person would be the likelyhood of a placebo effect with the TCM.
I would as a rational thinker have to believe that some TCM is very helpful. But the bit that makes me disbelieve the majority is the belief that the more powerful and exotic the animal, insect or plant the more likely that it is included as an ingredient in TCM. This would have to be by some huge coincidence if that were the case. Would it not be much more likely that the many more common things would also have some helpful properties. Again common sense would indicate that this type of belief would have been born in ancient times. All cultures had their sharman, medicine men and healers. Some of the herbal remedies were useful many were not and the useful ones have been developed further or overtaken by more effective medicines.
Shining_brow:
As I just said above... Drugs have different side-effects for different people. Our bodies are NOT 100% the same! So, yes, the argument is valid (to some extent). Your #3) is actually not correct - from the perspective of TCM... while the physical body may be fairly similar, it's the non (or less than) physical that is quite different - Qi, Xue, Yin, Yang, etc... Sure, you may not believe they exist, you may say that western medicine and science haven't found such things and therefore completely ignore it... but when diagnosed and treated according to those things correctly, effects take place! Are you really going to tell me that when I put those needles into those points (in the foot, hand, and belly) of a woman with menstrual problems FOR YEARS, it was merely a coincidence (or placebo effect) that those problems resolved? Or, people DON'T fall asleep when you needle the top of the head? TCM IS a science.. it has been developed over a long long time, there ARE standardised points, procedures, treatments, and they have specific, repeatable, and anticipated outcomes... in much the same way as western medicine... it just takes more than 5 minutes in the practitioner's office to get a diagnosis and treatment! I've seen people get feeling back in parts of their body that had been numb for decades - after only ONE treatment. I've seen asthmatic attacks alleviated ALMOST INSTANTLY. And I've treated enough people to see effects that are not RANDOM, by doing what we were taught (ie, they were repeatable, and with specific anticipated results!). Certain point combinations WILL reduce blood pressure, will alter metabolism, WILL alleviate pain (go see the stuff on acupuncture anasthetic - full operations only using needles for painkillers - and the patient wide-awake...). The real question, basically, is whether correct diagnosis and treatment in TCM can be equated with western science sometime in the future. That is, is there a more western reasoning (than just placebo) for why needling XYZ points have 123 physical responses??
woody:
I am not agueing about accupucture per se. I have seen it help a number of people and it has logic that nerves carry many messages and so an interuption to them may assist in the effects of certain things. But I will still argue about the percentage of that sucess against a proven drug that will work almost every time and where the side effects are generally known and can be managed correctly by a competent health professional. It is the other ancient hocus pocus (Tiger tool, bear bile, scorpions, Deer Antler) crap that I think is rubbish and is mostly relient on placebo. Please give me one example where any of the TCM works almost every time. I have given you 1 (Morphine ALWAYS reduces pain) Here is another (the correct antibiotic ALWAYS cures clymidia) Still waiting for your come back and then well go one on one.
woody:
I just re read your post. I would love to stake every cent I owned on a trial between yourself and a competent health professional in lowering blood pressure. You can use your pins and needles and I am sure that there will be some effect because just relaxing lowers BP, my doctor can use the latest blood pressure medications and after a short trial period where they determine the most appropriate drug and dosage we could so easily monitor the reduction in blood pressure of the trial group. You can even use all Chinese people with their (cough cough) different bodies.
