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Q: Are chinese policy makers actually this incompetent?

I just have trouble believing that they are all really truly so stupid. That there is something keeping China back. Everywhere you look you see easily fixable problems that they must have readily available resources at their disposal to improve things. But they let things continue.

Like the banks. Any bank trip is guaranteed to take hours. Perhaps a few trips. Its not the huge population thats the problem. Its the sytem. Endless forms and paperwork for absolutely nothing. Why not take a trip to HK? They have a completely different banking system on par with the best in the world. So why dont they learn?

My colleague just bought a car. With the new plate restrictions in Shenzhen getting plates is damn hard. But he has had a plate for 3 years so he was good. Or not. To register his new plates he had to sell his old car before he could buy his new one. Then wait at least a month to get the plates registered with the new car.
So their system is to make them have no car for a month? This is the great plan? Pretty much every country has a system to easily go to the DMV and register in 10 minutes then slap the plates on a new car. Why cant the Chinese just call their embassy in the states ans ask them how the system works??

City engineering confuses the hell out of me. I know people say they do it bad on purpose so they can re-do it later and steal more money but some things still dont make sense. Like why in the hell would they build a new great highway and then put the exit on-ramp BEFORE the exit off-ramp? It makes no god damned sense! Now if there is any traffic the people who wanna get off the highway gotta fight like hell with the people getting on! Its just stupid ideas and mistakes.

Taking a trip down to say Australia could easily give them some ideas for improvement. So why dont they learn? Are they really so dumb? Or do they have some China is so great that we couldnt possibley look to others for help complex? Is there a secret government rule to never follow another country in anything?

Do you think like top government people here drive around proud? Or do they constantly get in traffic and fire lower level officials for incompetence? They have all been abroad so surely they know better ways.

8 years 38 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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Such thoughts are counter-productive.

 

If people start looking to fix things, then eventually they'll start to look at their government, and want to fix that. This is clearly not in the central committee's best interests.

 

Fixing things empowers people.. again, something you don't want (with 1.3 billion people not entirely happy with their lives... and a few provinces looking to no longer be provinces). So, while everything is continually fkd (except for those at the top), there is no consideration of being able to do anything effective.

 

(do the Chinese have an equivalent to Machiavelli?)

xinyuren:

Yes, progress is a double-edged sword from the central government's point of view.  It is not a coincidence that the common folk's mantra is "don't think too much". 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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My theory is...  there is no concept of quality or good service being important in places like banks. People have to use them so they are basically in your power. Nobody cares that the customers are being massively inconvenienced  so there is no reason to improve the system even though the flaws are probably obvious to anyone with half a brain.

It's easier to just keep doing the same stupid things again and again, that way you don't need to use any initiative, you can just copy and repeat.

 

Face and guanxi probably come into it too. An idiot was given the job because his father is ... whoever, and so whatever he does will likely suck but nobody would be allowed to point that out because people would lose face so everyone just goes with the crap quality, poorly thought out version rather than fix or replace it.

mike695ca:

Good answer and i agree completely. It is surely this way on a lower level. But do you think like Xi Jing Ping or someone really high up goes to launder money at a local branch and sais, this is super scheisse. He doesnt care about face. He is chucking people in jail left and right. Couldnt he just blame it on the orevious regime and care? Do they even realize its a problem? I guess thats really the question. Do they know its all dumb at all? Or they know and dont care? Or they are too commie to ever look west for a simple.solution? Its frustrating.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Stiggs:

I actually think the higher ups get a kick out of it. Anyone with a bit of power probably doesn't need to go through all the red tape b.s, they just walk to the front of the line,tell the poor sucker in the bank to disregard all their rules because an important person is here now and it gets done.It must be a huge ego stoker for them, why fix it so everyone can have it easy?

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Shifu

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How dare you question the decision makers! Don't you know China is a meritocracy.

mike695ca:

WAit. Let me google that.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

Ok.... got it.... no witty response. End transmission.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Lord_hanson:

I take it you didn't read the echinacities weird news article.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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DrMonkey:

It's a centralized democracy. The power read people's mind to know what they want. No messy polls, debates and accountability ! Just efficiency and harmony.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Hal195:

I read that article and wasn't surprised.  I did a paper on Confucianism in China before and came across one of that guy's publications. He sounded more like a star studded fanboy of the country than a real scholar.

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mike695ca:

That was amazing. I wonder how many chinese understood none of the sarcasm?

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Shifu

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For the exit on ramp being before the exit off ramp, maybe that's to let the people who get on the highway by mistake immediately exit off the highway. Everyone here's a new driver, they don't know the roads yet. 

mike695ca:

I dont know man, your telling me they are actively causing traffic for the few who miss an exit?

8 years 38 weeks ago
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hi2u:

Ha I don't know, urban planning with Chinese characteristics maybe. 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

it is better than reversing on the highway

 

I've actually seen similar setups in Europe, e.g. on the Autobahn, and as we know, the Germans have built a flawless highway system !

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I'm guessing all the bad decisions are actively promoted by lousy education. CCP is opposed to people having personal problem SOLVING ability.

The economy is based on SCARCITY. The more artificially created problems, the more opportunities in China. CCP got this much right, but their scheme is causing too much disfunction.

If you doubt the accuracy of my statement, just look at what China opposes: Access to information through Google (but Google is allowed to open a for-profit app store), free foreign porn websites (but do nothing against for-profit popups), fast and efficient paperwork, timely and helpful customer service, durable construction, effective healthcare, clear consistent laws, accessible written script, problem solving communication, unobstructed travel, access to clean food and water…

They can't even be bothered to print bigger banknotes so the tuhao can carry more money without needing backpacks. Chon'a biggest banknote is close to the value of many countries' smallest banknotes.

Every problem is an opportunity for someone to make profit in our economy, and the Chinese are willing to pollute, destroy and sacrifice everything to make it happen.

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Shifu

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Oh well with the banks the biggest ones by far are all the same company (the government). You're expecting good service from what is basically the DMV.

 

You go to a Citi or HSBC branch or even Minsheng or CMB are pretty OK and it's not like that.

 

They can get their stuff together for stuff that matters, but I guess traffic engineering just isn't a priority.

 

Might just be the shortage of smart people too. You have capable people like I think most people in the central govt are pretty smart. You meet these guys and they don't even smoke and they speak intelligently.

 

It's their underlings at the local levels that are the thieving spitheads. And for something like on ramp construction it's just not worth it to stay on top of the idiots to where stuff gets done well.

dongbeiren:

Yep, no competitive market place, no incentive to do better 

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Chinese policy makers are part of an Authoritarian Government.  Please don't confuse this with a Democracy. The issues you raised aren't necessarily problems from the Central Govt's point of view.  You are from America, where the government is accountable to the people (more or less).  Government services, in fact all services, need to be competitive.  But in China's form of government, there is no need for such service.  There are no alternatives.  There are no civil rights and there isn't any concrete reason to provide them.  To run the State, these things aren't very important, and in some cases they will impede "progress". This has nothing to do with competence. It has to do with functionality.  How long have you lived here?  Are you still stuck in a Western mindset or is this just a BCD?

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Yes.

 

(should I read the OP now?)

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Such thoughts are counter-productive.

 

If people start looking to fix things, then eventually they'll start to look at their government, and want to fix that. This is clearly not in the central committee's best interests.

 

Fixing things empowers people.. again, something you don't want (with 1.3 billion people not entirely happy with their lives... and a few provinces looking to no longer be provinces). So, while everything is continually fkd (except for those at the top), there is no consideration of being able to do anything effective.

 

(do the Chinese have an equivalent to Machiavelli?)

xinyuren:

Yes, progress is a double-edged sword from the central government's point of view.  It is not a coincidence that the common folk's mantra is "don't think too much". 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Shifu

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Yeah, like when I receive USD from my bro to my chinese account, it takes 20 minutes and 36 papers with my 7 signatures. if if send them back, to my account in Czech, I no need do nothing and bank just change the money to CzK and send me message about it...

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Until recently, I used to bang my head in frustration at the aforementioned inefficient, beauracratic bulls**t. Now I have adopted a new philosophy - china is full of comedians. Everyone. Your Ayi, boss, local police, She xinping - all funny, little people who do stupid things for a chuckle. What this country needs is studio laughter cues whenever a local does something idiotic. Consider China a country full of fake, bumbling actors stuck in a bad 80's sitcom. I do it works wonders.

Shining_brow:

Funny that.. I was on the bus today, and the driver had the radio up load - some nong presenter was giving his ridiculous opinions on something, but he also had the button for the fake laugh audience... sounded ridiculous!!!

 

Perhaps they should be made mandatory for everyone...

 

Haaalllooooo.... (hahahahahahahahahaaaaa........)

Kan - Waiguoren... (hahahahahahahahahaaaaa........)

What's your naaaaammmmeeee???? (hahahahahahahahahaaaaa........))

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I think Shining _Brow is pretty much right.

 

Chinese are encouraged to be stupid to the point they are still functional but not asking questions like... "Well, gee... this don't work so well so how can I make it better?"

 

Cause if they did that, they would go insane, there are just too many lazy half-ass Chinese people doing the bare minimum. They would want to remove their idiotic government... they would push others in China to be better people but nobody would listen... or they could just leave... and I guess many of the best Chinese prefer the latter.

Instead of getting mad, laugh at them. Embarrass them and make them feel like the thing they TRULY don't want to be reminded that they act like... FARMERS!

xinyuren:

If you laughed at them, they wouldn't get it.  You are still thinking from a Western point of view.  In their world, they are perfectly normal and sensible.  The reason why so many foreigners are scratching their heads is because they weren't born in the Chinese world.

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Robk:

I don't do it for them. There is no way I can hope to education that many people.

 

I do it for me, to laugh it off and think the situation is beneath me and remind them that this sort of behavior or procedure is pathetic compared to other countries in the rest of the world. They might shrug it off or think I am the crazy lao wai but that's fine. I know the difference, they don't.

 

It's for my insanity. I prefer to think of it as a joke rather than take the whole thing too seriously when I encounter this sort of idiocy.

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True dat, about as useful as c*ck flavoured lollypops and not to be taken seriously. Have some fun, turn the tables. Be creative (think Ghandi meets Bill Hicks) These "people" are a canvas for your frustrations, but never resort to anger or violence that is the domain of the weak willed and un-intelligent (mainlanders) 

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True dat, about as useful as c*ck flavoured lollypops and not to be taken seriously. Have some fun, turn the tables. Be creative (think Ghandi meets Bill Hicks) These "people" are a canvas for your frustrations, but never resort to anger or violence that is the domain of the weak willed and un-intelligent (mainlanders) 

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So strong is my opinion, it had to be posted twice Smile

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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Lately on this board, there has been an awful lot of unfair and unbalanced characterizing of Chinese people (mainlanders).  Foreigners have the reputation of being open-minded and even handed in comparison to the Chinese, but I'm just not seeing it here.  Maybe it's because you are too invested in your own ideologies to take into account the lives of those who were exposed to very different thinking than yours?

 

I'm going on a little rant, so excuse me.

 

The fact is, the Chinese that we interact with every day came from a revolutionary history that consisted of mainly peasants that weren't exposed to the rest of the world.  I'm sure most of you know this, but you don't seem to be understanding how and why this would create a society very different from what we are used to.  When the CCP took power, the people were in extreme poverty.  They made a tacit agreement with the government:  Our lives, our soul, in exchange for a better life.  In a sense, they gave up all responsibility to their rulers.  Would you or I have done so?  Maybe not.  I have never faced such a situation, but thats what they chose.  Are they better off now?  I am not in a position to say.

 

But I do know this:  Every situation has it's tradeoffs.  Take the USA for example.  Shooting crimes are ramped. Lawsuits and lawyers are over the top.  Trials take too long and are too expensive and bad people often get off easy.  Bureaucracy standoffs between competing political parties stagnate the system.  And these are just some of the problems the world's leading government faces.  But these issues are logical by-products of a free and democratic society.  They can't be solved easy, if at all.  If one wants the former, they must put up with the latter.  By choosing a free society, we have also chosen the myriad of problems that come from that decision.

 

Conversely, the Chinese people have chosen a different way.  It also has problems attached to it, but they are unavoidable if they are to proceed on their chosen path.  We may find it "stupid" and "illogical", but most of these issues are inevitable.  A Totalitarian society can't allow it's people to be free (that would be an oxymoron) and as long as the Chinese feel they are benefiting from such an arrangement, they will put up with the associated problems that come with this sort of society.

 

It's easy to get on a high horse and claim people are stupid and incompetent, but I warn you against such an attitude.  In the end, everything will come down like a house of cards.  East or West won't matter.  It's all built on a single fallacy:  That a man (or men) is competent enough to rule over other men.

Burak43:

If a totalitarian system doesn't allow people to be free (obviously), then how can the people be free to chose a different system?

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xinyuren:

People can always choose. It's called a revolution and its how the CCP took power.

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Burak43:

June 1989?

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xinyuren:

ummm, no.  Oct 1, 1949

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snip

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I was thinking the same thing, there has been much anti - mainlander sentiments expressed round' these parts lately. But on the other hand, you cant polish a turd and people need to vent. My first anti-mainlander rant was poorly timed Sad

xinyuren:

Yeah, we all have our BCD's.  Let's all try not to have them on the same day. Today was actually a Bad China Day for me too.

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Since I employed the "Chinese Comedian" method, my days have been peaceful and stress free. It helps to have a long term goal in mind, I do and these days I am at peace with myself. I am not hear to appreciate the "culture",  I have no interest in learning the language (dont need to know what the old hag behind me in the check-out  line thinks about my purchases) and besides my students, care very little about the copy-cut lifestyle of the average Chinese folk.

 

 

I am here to save money and entertain local girls, I make no qualms about this. 

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