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Posts: 3

Governor

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Q: blackmail and forgery laws, SAFEA penalties

A well-known company with several dozen training centers throughout China recently fired me after 2 months for dubious reasons. I refused to sign the release papers because I wanted to challenge the termination at arbitration.

I talked to the local foreign expert bureau and provincial SAFEA. The local bureau says the labor arbitration court won't accept a case if my work permit is canceled. Whether or not that is true, I don't know. But the bureau also will not cancel my work permit-- which would allow me to change schools-- until I sign a letter stating that there are no conflicts with the company. So, although I have 1 year to go to arbitration, I can't legally work again until I say there are no problems with this company. So there you have it: foreign experts are slaves to their Chinese employers. Nice to know.

Now, I may have waited too long now to feel financially and mentally comfortable as I wait for a supposed 2-3 month, or however long it is, arbitration process to finish. I've been trying to prepare evidence while working several unstable, inconvenient, and of course, illegal, part time jobs, and feel exhausted trying to keep this up. The cost of translating evidence is also a hurdle. The largest translation agency in this city claimed that translations of voice recordings are not certifiable to be used as evidence--- true or not? Sooo much misinformation in this country...

But perhaps there is hope. I just learned that the company (almost certainly the recruiter) forged my signature on my 2nd day of employment in order to obtain my foreign expert certificate, while I started working and waited more than a month for the company to supposedly make some edits to their contracts before finally showing me a contract for the very first time. I have photos and video of my trip to the foreign expert bureau in which I discovered, but didn't point out, the forgery. So, at the bureau, there sit 2 contracts: the first one with a forged signature, and then the one I signed.

I have audio and video evidence of the HR people offering to pay me additional salary for failing to sign a contract within the first 30 days of employment, in accordance with China labor law. Logically, the company would not be offering me this extra salary if the forged contract actually had my real signature on it.

In addition to this, I know the names of some people working for the company in other cities with the wrong residence permit. I don't want to get those teachers in trouble, but I want to use this as leverage against the company.

So... what to do? Goal: maximize profit, avoid legal trouble, and it would be nice to not jeopardize my future with SAFEA. FYI the amount I requested during our pre-arbitration negotiation was 20k rmb. They only offered 5k rmb.

I've been wanting to be extremely careful with how I handle this. I've already gone through a checklist for making sure to avoid incriminating myself in any way.

Does anyone have a clue about blackmail laws in China, or how commonly such charges are brought up in situations like this? If I send a text message to the HR simply saying "I know ___", is that evidence of blackmail? What if I call the headquarters and say "this is what I know/believe. who should I talk to about this?" ?

Any idea much money to ask for? Your guess is as good as mine. I want to say it doesn't hurt to start by aiming as high as possible, like, north of 100,000 rmb. The lowlifes at this company might do the same damn thing if they were in my shoes. But could they just scapegoat the recruiter and perhaps get off easy with SAFEA?

Any idea what kind of fines or other penalties the school could face? I wouldn't be surpised if non-English speaking HR manager didn't have a clue about this either. In internet land, I've yet to find reports of the company facing prior legal problems in this particular city, though there are plenty of bad reports from teachers all over China.

I can't be sure about who knows what, but other HR staff seem pretty relaxed about this situation. The recruiter, on the other hand, looks like she is shitting her pants. I have revealed virtually zero evidence related to the forgery or to the arbitration case, though I have recorded every conversation since the firing.

8 years 23 weeks ago in  Visa & Legalities - China

 
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Posts: 1098

Shifu

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You sound like a well-intentioned guy and I don't mean any offense here but you're fighting a ridiculous and pointless battle that you will never win and could cause a lot more trouble for you. As scotsalan said, they can fire you for any reason they want, whether or not the contract specifically states that. This isn't Europe with its pro-worker labor laws. Even if your contract has certain stipulations in it, it's not worth the paper it's printed on, or at a minimum far less important than the vast network of connections with high level officials that this school obviously has.

 

But why are you bothering exactly? It doesn't sound like they owe you back pay. They fired you and are allowing you to transfer to another school without any hassle so just move on to a new school and do your job. Also, you admit to working illegally on the side when in the middle of a legal dispute with a well connected school. Don't you think the school could find out about this easily and use it against you, seeing as you're causing so much trouble for them?

 

I've known guys like you who've gotten into conflicts like this that they didn't want to let go. It doesn't end well and the more hassle you cause for them, the more vindictive they will become. I'm talking about guys receiving death threats and having people follow them home, trying to blacklist them from getting a work visa in the province again and filing false criminal charges against them. It can get ugly here man.

 

So in conclusion, it doesn't sound like they've really wronged you that badly... they fired you for whatever reason and are not blocking you from going to another school. Why make so much trouble over this?

dom87:

actually the abritation laws in china favour the employee.

there is litterally no way for a company to win abritation, currently (i have experience)

 

abritation takes at most 3 month and is for free. Their judgement will never be a compensation, but you can be rehired. Since no one wants that, they offer compensation.

 

If you fight in front of the court you cannot get more than 2month salary.

8 years 22 weeks ago
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8 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Posts: 7178

Emperor

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Let this be an example to anyone who wants to work in China. Make sure you have money to pay for a flight home.

To the OP... The thing is, they don't need a reason to sack you. They can sack you on a Friday and one of their mates starts in your old Job on Monday.

Anyone think of working here needs to be aware of this and plan accordingly.

silverbutton1:

or fly space a for free, if you are a military retiree... hehe.

8 years 22 weeks ago
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8 years 23 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1098

Shifu

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You sound like a well-intentioned guy and I don't mean any offense here but you're fighting a ridiculous and pointless battle that you will never win and could cause a lot more trouble for you. As scotsalan said, they can fire you for any reason they want, whether or not the contract specifically states that. This isn't Europe with its pro-worker labor laws. Even if your contract has certain stipulations in it, it's not worth the paper it's printed on, or at a minimum far less important than the vast network of connections with high level officials that this school obviously has.

 

But why are you bothering exactly? It doesn't sound like they owe you back pay. They fired you and are allowing you to transfer to another school without any hassle so just move on to a new school and do your job. Also, you admit to working illegally on the side when in the middle of a legal dispute with a well connected school. Don't you think the school could find out about this easily and use it against you, seeing as you're causing so much trouble for them?

 

I've known guys like you who've gotten into conflicts like this that they didn't want to let go. It doesn't end well and the more hassle you cause for them, the more vindictive they will become. I'm talking about guys receiving death threats and having people follow them home, trying to blacklist them from getting a work visa in the province again and filing false criminal charges against them. It can get ugly here man.

 

So in conclusion, it doesn't sound like they've really wronged you that badly... they fired you for whatever reason and are not blocking you from going to another school. Why make so much trouble over this?

dom87:

actually the abritation laws in china favour the employee.

there is litterally no way for a company to win abritation, currently (i have experience)

 

abritation takes at most 3 month and is for free. Their judgement will never be a compensation, but you can be rehired. Since no one wants that, they offer compensation.

 

If you fight in front of the court you cannot get more than 2month salary.

8 years 22 weeks ago
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8 years 22 weeks ago
 
Posts: 2763

Emperor

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No. No you will not get 100000 from this situation, no way, no how. You will get nada. See the above posters. They are right. You want to waste months or a year fighting this for nothing, working illegally, waiting for the big payday that won't happen? Cause that's what will happen. 

 

Like northpeople said, they can fire you or me for no reason, here's a box, clear out your desk. (Why?) No why.

 

Now, if they owe you money, the PSB will get you paid sharpish, but that does not seem to be the case. 

 

Yea, as a matter of fact, I have been fired for a &$%# reason. Who cares? I got what was owed me and I moved on. Forget it. 

 

Here's another plan: (unless yer flush with cash)

Start looking for another job, like ... about now. Now. 

Take the 5k and be polite to everyone. 

Move on. 

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8 years 22 weeks ago
 
Posts: 106

Governor

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dude you are 100% right in what you said, but the thing is that your not in the US or EU. Keep in mind that they see us as stupid foreigners who gets paid twice their salaries. They despise us for that and they wont favor you over a Chinese person. So just let it go, make peace and find another job. This is the way this country works (or dysfunction in our opinion)

 

Welcome to China, the home of the brave and the land of the free:/

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8 years 22 weeks ago
 
Posts: 5156

Emperor

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Let it go. Find another job (legally) . How long have you been in China? Don't you know workers have no rights?Get your release docs and find another job and don't ignore red flags at the beginning.

And I love people calling their 40 hour per week, high mid class salary, freedom to quit and find a new company job slavery. It makes you look like a drama queen and I think maybe they had good reason to let you go. 

They offered you 5k? Take it and get back to your life. Peace is priceless

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8 years 22 weeks ago
 
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