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Q: Can you REALLY count on Chinese friends?
I have heard A LOT of cases of foreigners building up a business with a Chinese friend and getting screwed over. I do UI/UX Design and with my few tries of getting Chinese clients, most have been a total waste of time or a nightmare... so now I strongly refuse Chinese clients. They are just too painful to work with... But I try to be positive and look for that one opportunity to prove my experiences wrong.
And I thought I found it. An American guy told me the company he was working with needed a UI/UX designer. He then told me they were Chinese and needed to build a mobile app for the UAV/Drone they were making and going to sell. It sounded cool... but the Chinese part made me worry. "No don't worry, he said... these guys are the real deal"... I told him my experiences and he went on to tell me that one of the head guys was his long-term friend. He even organized/planned the Chinese guy's wedding in San Francisco and they seemed close when I met them both. So I agreed and they brought me in. Big mistake...
I get a phone called at 11pm (cause Chinese like to call late) and this other Chinese guy on the project told me that the American guy left the company because of visa issues... I asked the American guy and he told me they axed him for giving too much of his opinion (yup, that will do it in China). He told me he was shocked because one of the guys that agreed to axe him was his long-term friend. They replaced him with a Chinese guy that has never even made an application before and had some experience with photography.
They wanted to keep me on and I sort of reluctantly agreed. Then the American guy informed me they not only axed him but refused to pay him for his last month (thus not honoring their contract, hey this is China after-all). His Chinese buddy never even gave him the impression they were going to give him the boot.
Anyway, the point of it is that basically his Chinese buddy totally screwed him over. This seems so typical to me.
Just saying if you have a TRUE Chinese friend... consider yourself extremely lucky because you got a better chance of being abducted and probed by aliens.
9 years 5 weeks ago in Relationships - China
Chinese attitude toards friends and employees is more objectification than we are used to. Subordinates/dependants are static and unchangeable in their eyes. So, a simple thing like offering an unexpected opinion can lead them to view you in a very different light, and they'll react by trying to get rid of you as we'd get rid of a cockroach.
As an employee: "I thought you were a reliable member of my workforce, but now that you voiced a troublesome opinion, I'll go out of my way to give you the boot. Even if it means losing a little profit in the short term."
As a friend: "I thought you were a perfectly predictable yes-man who I could use as audience for my bragging and face-gaining. But now that you're not reacting as I want you to, I'll betray you at the earliest and most hurtful opportunity."
I could do other exaples, of how they think of their wives, husbands, parents and children as static objects, but I'm pressed for time unfortunately.
As for why someone like mike695ca can maintain friends, I'd suggest some possibilities:
1) Nothing is too shallow for Mike. His friends score double-prestige for showing off their cars to a car afficionado. He's not too shy to brag about enjoying privileges like 5-star hotels and VIP hospital wards. I'm guessing he doesn't trigger all the *dislike* buttons that most westerners do, by talking about socially-relevant topics, discussing China and politics, politeness towards people in a weak position, and so on. In short, he's well-adapted. Near-native.
2) His job makes him essential, and too difficult to screw over. As he basically described already.
3) He's a bit of a bully. He'll incite a collision on the road to prove a point about someone's bad driving. He'll mock board users for their low-income jobs, their cars, the food they eat, and so on. Being a bully in China is interpreted as being powerful, well-connected and important. His 'friends' will simply respect him for it, and not dare try anything.
You must understand that China has had a very uncivilized history. Bigger 'dogs' ate smaller dogs, who starved tens of millions of Chihuahuas to death. The old people still remember those days, and are far beyond showing any kind of remorse, compassion, or considerations of loyalty/friendship. Your friend got fired because he wasn't vital to the company, didn't appear strong or well-connected, wasn't sucking up to stroke the bosses ego, and so his employers just did what came natural to them.
I experienced a similar situation, where disagreements led my boss to try to replace me. Unfortunately, the 56-year old teacher who visited was even more difficult to get along with than me. I survived by being vital to the company, though many large schools with *multiple* foreign teachers (= not absolutely vital) frequently fire people over small things - even if it's quite harmful for the comapny.
I'd quote a parabel about a tiger cub who ate his childhood friend the chicken when he grew up, but I can't remember it in detail. Anyway, Chinese betray one another due to an ingrained survival instinct, regardless of whether it's actually beneficial to do so.
mike695ca:
While all your points about me may be true. i have no arguments about that,
I guestion your post still.
Do you really believe that in this whole country of more than a billion people there are no potential friends for you? No one that doesnt want anything from you? no one that wouldnt throw you away for a small opportunity??? with total respect, thats sad. it seems really lonely man.
Im not saying the vast majority arent exactly how you described. But your gonna throw every single person in the country in that same boat???
I also have one suggestion as to why I feel I have true friends while others dont.
I have tried really hard to be the exact same person in China as I was back home. This relates to how I eat, and work, and play and who I interact with.
I will not have beers with someone more than once just because they are the only laowai around, I will not tolerate disrespect because I am scared about my visa and I treat people with the same kindness as well as rudeness as I would back home ,depending on them.
This means that I choose my friends carefully and they are my friends for life.
I have noticed that people also often say Chinese as the reason they have no friends and never look within. There seems to be a " single child" syndrome of people that have been in China for a while. They just stop doing anything that they dont feel like doing. They eat what they want to eat every day, they go to their favorite place to drink and easily pass when people go to a place they dont enjoy.
They become incredibly selfish people and this is not a recipe for making good friends. So they dont. " Friends are people that treat you for dinner, or rant with in the pub. Thats it,
Whereas I build relationships with people that I want to be friends with.
I regularly go eat fucking fish heads, i dont eat, and i usually try to run across the street to KFC quietly, but I make sure that they feel comfortable eating there because we often eat pizza too.
When my friends daughter got leukemia, i didnt go to the hospital once. I drove 45 minutes to guangzhou 6 days a week for a year. I helped with the cleaning and the shopping and whatever else they could need.
When my friends move, I being the strongest need to be there, no excuses , to carry sofas and put up wall paper and paint. And when they try to take me for dinner, i tell them to fuck off., that its my job.
I remember birthdays, prepare for xmas, and give hongbao , of not just to them but their wives and kids.
And when I see something that may be usefull to them Ill either pick it up or bring it to their attention.
The point is, maybe my friends where just special, I definitely feel lucky, but maybe they werent and I created friendships by thinking of other people and not just myself.
Maybe they saw how I treated them and they felt good to treat me the same and the whole damn group started it.
All I know is when my friend moved to Hunan, there where 5 people in the car because no one was gonna let him make that drive alone. And if its thanksgiving, or im pissed off, that same friend will hop on a train that afternoon for dinner and drinks.
So maybe, I bought my friends, maybe its all fake. But at the end of the day Im happy while others certainly are not.
coineineagh:
I respect your answer, and sorry for the lack of paragraphs - I still haven't figured out the comment textbox yet. A lot of it doesn't apply to me though, since I'm rooted in my wife's home area sue to family obligations, and the expats are few and far between here. Sure, I avoided the U.S. fugitive, and don't meet the nice ones as often as I could, but I'm not exactly spoilt for choice. This evening I'll meet up with an American kindy teacher here. Another veteran who doesn't seem troubled by what he sees in China - if my attempts at comiserating fall flat, it will probably not be a regular thing. And I won't pretend to be easy to get along with - I had moral objections to a lot of people's behaviourisms back home, so living in China has been like an episode of the Walking Dead. Anyway, I'll be off to Germany in a couple months. Even though I barely speak any German and have no friends there, I expect I'll find the atmosphere on the street more livable. There's a chance I might find local people there with similar opinions and interests as mine there. In China it's a guaranteed 0%. I should place the emphasis on *find* here, because I'm sure there might be inrteresting people here despite all the crass shallowness, but if they're anything like me, the chances of randomly bumping in to one and talking are tiny. I'm a bit introverted myself: Not in the Chinese way, but definitely not meeting the "open" stereotype Chinese have of us.
mike695ca:
You are moving to Germany??? And you have have no friends are family there?? ( U said you dont speak it so im assuming) Other than to get out of China may I ask why you chose there??
Congrats by the way
Robk:
@coin - yeah that sounds about right. And that is exactly what happened to him. He wasn't a good enough "Yes" man and the got rid of him.
coineineagh:
for my kds' education. European immigration is troublesome, but it's made easier by living in another EU country for at least 6 months. This makes you a full EU citizen, and no longer subject to country laws, as the less restricitive Union laws must apply. And since we're going to live there, I might as well learn the language and settle. My wife sees dollar signs from living near the border, having access to both Dutch and German markets for her little export business. I'm just happy my kids won't become delusional Red Guards.
I know its hard to believe, but I have Chinese friends I can trust. I have a smallish group of them and we are very close. Now I wouldnt go so far as to say I would trust EVERYONE in that group but there are one or two that are especially important to me. I would trust them with my life.
We all have enough and are confident we can get more so the amount of money would need to be very high for any of us to even consider screwing us over. Im talking millions. ( everyone has a limit haha) It just wouldnt be worth it. Our families are too connected.
I could call them at the worst possible time, and they would come. regardless of work or meetings or anything.
Help isnt asked for, its offered, and nothing is expected in return because thats what family does.
Our wives know this and never get in the way, so there is no pressure to put family first. they are all included and have all enjoyed the extra support.
Money, work related, man hours, or favors, whatever it is I know I have alot of support behind me. and they know ill always have their backs.
more than 6 years now i guess and they have never given me a reason to believe being let down is even a possibility.
Robk:
You are pretty lucky... because really most Chinese just have foreign friends for the normal reasons:
1) Give them face
2) Curious
3) Want to learn English
4) To somehow make them money (get them students or something)
---
And the reasons are usually quite evident in the first few seconds of interaction which makes it even harder to find true Chinese finds because your shield is up almost automatically... It gets to a point (like with me in business) that I actively try to avoid social interaction with Chinese. Obviously that is not healthy when there are 1.3 billion of them here.
How did you meet your good friends?
mike695ca:
Best friend was a student when i was a teacher. I dont remember ever having him in my classes. I liked that he "wasnt chinese" he didnt give a shit about stuff normal people did. We had the same interests for the most part and i never got the feeling he wanted anything from me like i got with other people. He was brutally honest, even if he looked bad and we hit it off right away. The other group where hhis friends and i was introduced. Some i got on with others i didnt and a group was formed. I think at the beginning most of them ran stuff through him but eventually everyone got comfortable. He has never showed me off. And if i meet someone chinese dude and he wants a teacher, he will tell him to buy us drinks and chat cuz im not for hire haha. I think he more hides me/ protects me then is proud. Many times ive gone to meet him somewhere and people always say " you didnt say your friend was laowai". Now its just smooth sailing. I understand that chinese guys are far less mature then girls but your gonna tell me that everyone can find numerous girlfriends that " arent chinese" and you can be around all the time. but not a single guy??? Somethings fishy.
Robk:
Yeah sure, I have Chinese friends but not like REALLY good friends. And would I trust them with most stuff... well maybe one. Most Chinese guys just smoke and drink all the time, go to KTV places, spas and whoring around these parts.
I don't mind drinking once in a while. Don't like KTV joints, or that whoring jazz. Would I go into business with any of these guys with 100% conviction? Nope.
coineineagh:
@mike: your friend sounds like a decent guy. glad you met a good one. even back in amsterdam, Chinese friends would only use me for legal issues like getting a phonecard and household registry. they didn't screw me over financially (but when i risked getting in legal trouble, they broke it off per my request), but it just felt like a purely utilistic & one-sided relationship.
Chinese attitude toards friends and employees is more objectification than we are used to. Subordinates/dependants are static and unchangeable in their eyes. So, a simple thing like offering an unexpected opinion can lead them to view you in a very different light, and they'll react by trying to get rid of you as we'd get rid of a cockroach.
As an employee: "I thought you were a reliable member of my workforce, but now that you voiced a troublesome opinion, I'll go out of my way to give you the boot. Even if it means losing a little profit in the short term."
As a friend: "I thought you were a perfectly predictable yes-man who I could use as audience for my bragging and face-gaining. But now that you're not reacting as I want you to, I'll betray you at the earliest and most hurtful opportunity."
I could do other exaples, of how they think of their wives, husbands, parents and children as static objects, but I'm pressed for time unfortunately.
As for why someone like mike695ca can maintain friends, I'd suggest some possibilities:
1) Nothing is too shallow for Mike. His friends score double-prestige for showing off their cars to a car afficionado. He's not too shy to brag about enjoying privileges like 5-star hotels and VIP hospital wards. I'm guessing he doesn't trigger all the *dislike* buttons that most westerners do, by talking about socially-relevant topics, discussing China and politics, politeness towards people in a weak position, and so on. In short, he's well-adapted. Near-native.
2) His job makes him essential, and too difficult to screw over. As he basically described already.
3) He's a bit of a bully. He'll incite a collision on the road to prove a point about someone's bad driving. He'll mock board users for their low-income jobs, their cars, the food they eat, and so on. Being a bully in China is interpreted as being powerful, well-connected and important. His 'friends' will simply respect him for it, and not dare try anything.
You must understand that China has had a very uncivilized history. Bigger 'dogs' ate smaller dogs, who starved tens of millions of Chihuahuas to death. The old people still remember those days, and are far beyond showing any kind of remorse, compassion, or considerations of loyalty/friendship. Your friend got fired because he wasn't vital to the company, didn't appear strong or well-connected, wasn't sucking up to stroke the bosses ego, and so his employers just did what came natural to them.
I experienced a similar situation, where disagreements led my boss to try to replace me. Unfortunately, the 56-year old teacher who visited was even more difficult to get along with than me. I survived by being vital to the company, though many large schools with *multiple* foreign teachers (= not absolutely vital) frequently fire people over small things - even if it's quite harmful for the comapny.
I'd quote a parabel about a tiger cub who ate his childhood friend the chicken when he grew up, but I can't remember it in detail. Anyway, Chinese betray one another due to an ingrained survival instinct, regardless of whether it's actually beneficial to do so.
mike695ca:
While all your points about me may be true. i have no arguments about that,
I guestion your post still.
Do you really believe that in this whole country of more than a billion people there are no potential friends for you? No one that doesnt want anything from you? no one that wouldnt throw you away for a small opportunity??? with total respect, thats sad. it seems really lonely man.
Im not saying the vast majority arent exactly how you described. But your gonna throw every single person in the country in that same boat???
I also have one suggestion as to why I feel I have true friends while others dont.
I have tried really hard to be the exact same person in China as I was back home. This relates to how I eat, and work, and play and who I interact with.
I will not have beers with someone more than once just because they are the only laowai around, I will not tolerate disrespect because I am scared about my visa and I treat people with the same kindness as well as rudeness as I would back home ,depending on them.
This means that I choose my friends carefully and they are my friends for life.
I have noticed that people also often say Chinese as the reason they have no friends and never look within. There seems to be a " single child" syndrome of people that have been in China for a while. They just stop doing anything that they dont feel like doing. They eat what they want to eat every day, they go to their favorite place to drink and easily pass when people go to a place they dont enjoy.
They become incredibly selfish people and this is not a recipe for making good friends. So they dont. " Friends are people that treat you for dinner, or rant with in the pub. Thats it,
Whereas I build relationships with people that I want to be friends with.
I regularly go eat fucking fish heads, i dont eat, and i usually try to run across the street to KFC quietly, but I make sure that they feel comfortable eating there because we often eat pizza too.
When my friends daughter got leukemia, i didnt go to the hospital once. I drove 45 minutes to guangzhou 6 days a week for a year. I helped with the cleaning and the shopping and whatever else they could need.
When my friends move, I being the strongest need to be there, no excuses , to carry sofas and put up wall paper and paint. And when they try to take me for dinner, i tell them to fuck off., that its my job.
I remember birthdays, prepare for xmas, and give hongbao , of not just to them but their wives and kids.
And when I see something that may be usefull to them Ill either pick it up or bring it to their attention.
The point is, maybe my friends where just special, I definitely feel lucky, but maybe they werent and I created friendships by thinking of other people and not just myself.
Maybe they saw how I treated them and they felt good to treat me the same and the whole damn group started it.
All I know is when my friend moved to Hunan, there where 5 people in the car because no one was gonna let him make that drive alone. And if its thanksgiving, or im pissed off, that same friend will hop on a train that afternoon for dinner and drinks.
So maybe, I bought my friends, maybe its all fake. But at the end of the day Im happy while others certainly are not.
coineineagh:
I respect your answer, and sorry for the lack of paragraphs - I still haven't figured out the comment textbox yet. A lot of it doesn't apply to me though, since I'm rooted in my wife's home area sue to family obligations, and the expats are few and far between here. Sure, I avoided the U.S. fugitive, and don't meet the nice ones as often as I could, but I'm not exactly spoilt for choice. This evening I'll meet up with an American kindy teacher here. Another veteran who doesn't seem troubled by what he sees in China - if my attempts at comiserating fall flat, it will probably not be a regular thing. And I won't pretend to be easy to get along with - I had moral objections to a lot of people's behaviourisms back home, so living in China has been like an episode of the Walking Dead. Anyway, I'll be off to Germany in a couple months. Even though I barely speak any German and have no friends there, I expect I'll find the atmosphere on the street more livable. There's a chance I might find local people there with similar opinions and interests as mine there. In China it's a guaranteed 0%. I should place the emphasis on *find* here, because I'm sure there might be inrteresting people here despite all the crass shallowness, but if they're anything like me, the chances of randomly bumping in to one and talking are tiny. I'm a bit introverted myself: Not in the Chinese way, but definitely not meeting the "open" stereotype Chinese have of us.
mike695ca:
You are moving to Germany??? And you have have no friends are family there?? ( U said you dont speak it so im assuming) Other than to get out of China may I ask why you chose there??
Congrats by the way
Robk:
@coin - yeah that sounds about right. And that is exactly what happened to him. He wasn't a good enough "Yes" man and the got rid of him.
coineineagh:
for my kds' education. European immigration is troublesome, but it's made easier by living in another EU country for at least 6 months. This makes you a full EU citizen, and no longer subject to country laws, as the less restricitive Union laws must apply. And since we're going to live there, I might as well learn the language and settle. My wife sees dollar signs from living near the border, having access to both Dutch and German markets for her little export business. I'm just happy my kids won't become delusional Red Guards.
I have three real Chinese friends, several who I call friends and can to certain extent rely on them and then a lot of acquaintances.
I think a lot of expats makes one crucial mistake - for some strange reason they believe that people in China have similar way of thinking, similar ladder of values and similar urge for friendship like them.
Not fully understanding then the motivation of Chinese people behavior motivation (rather replacing it with 'strange' assumptions frequently ventilated on this forum) it can make them behave like 'sitting in the greenhouse and throwing stones on the glass'. And they are then surprised when the glass gets broken.
I believe it's quite hard to get a real friend even in own culture but to make a friend in the culture so different is really really hard. And if such a person is 'culturist' believing that Chinese culture is much worse than his/her own so I would say it's almost impossible ...
I'd say that when push comes to shove...no.
By and large, Chinese people are playing a different game to me.
For me, things are real. And my experience has been that for Chinese people, things are an agenda.
coineineagh:
interesting way of putting it. i'd say we're *living* life, while they're trying to *win*. different success requirements are involved.
My experience is pretty much the same as Royce and Coin and it is quite sad that the barrier is so huge and one the main reasons for it (as Royce pointed out) is that most Chinese have an agenda.
It's like ,say you both have something in common and enjoy spending time together... That's enough for as solid friendship in my country but in China that wouldn't be enough for most Chinese people. There has to be something to GAIN from you for them to want to continue to actively pursue a friendship. It's like having friends to them is hard work and they don't want to put forward the effort if you have nothing to benefit them. Sure, this isn't all Chinese but I would say a good 90-95%.
Most Chinese have HUGE difficulty in making new & good friend when they are out of middle or post-secondary school. It's like they were innocent and could make true friends during this time and then... they were corrupted by the education or society and taught that making friends must mean making "guanxi".
How else do you explain so many lonely people in a country with 1.3 billion?
Makes no difference where people are from when it comes to friendship. If you are friends you are friends. Doing a business deal together does not make you friends. Rather the opposite I suspect 
Robk:
Well of course, some people go into business together and are friends beforehand. I just found that to be a true testing ground for friendship in China. If you have a Chinese buddy that when put into a place to screw you over and gain from it...
ScotsAlan:
I know an Irish guy that was asked by a British guy to get stuff made here to send back. This was a few years back. The Irish guy set up a company, got his Chinese mates involved, and the British guy shafted them all. The Irish guy was left with the bill. Business is cut throat, no matter where you are from :-o
royceH:
Actually I got screwed over in business by a very good mate. We were in it together, it cost a lot of time and money to set up, he got out alive and I was left holding the carcass. In truth he was a vessel of his wife. But anyway, 15 yrs of friendship is no more. Along with about 3 decades of built up wealth.
Funnily enough, I had other mates who could see it coming.
That's really sad. I know an Australian who was screwed over by an american here though. Nasty people are everywhere.
I'm fortunate to have a lot of Chinese friends, several of whom I trust absolutely. I hope you can all find that here. It can be pretty lonely otherwise.
I trust my Chinese friends more than my British friends. Trust them with my life. If start a business I'll trust them with that
Never eat yellow snow. Because it could be a Chinese man stuck in an avalanche. Double post
I would say you really can't trust anybody. The only odd attribute that i've noticed is they give insincere invitations to social functions, like going to the movies. When the day comes to go do whatever you agreed upon, they act like they have no memory of it. My opinion is if you don't want to hang out stop offering in the first place. Now when they offer to go do something on my day off I just nod my head and forget about it.
