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Q: Can you RELY on your Chinese friends/people?
I have people here who I know I can trust.. to be fairly honest with me (though not always open), I know they won't rip me off, I know they will repay me...
However, when it comes to actually having to rely on them - for them to actually follow through on something they said they'd do... quite often it turns up empty :(
And, I'm not talking about really difficult things.
Just recently, I asked people to look for some things for me. I know, all it would take is a quick Baidu or similar. Or access a website for some information. However,.... meiyou. Bu zhi dao. Or, I'll ask someone... (WTF for? I could do this myself if my Chinese was better!!!)
Do you find this? Simple requests seem far too difficult to figure out.... and you're left hanging.
Yeah, I asked this question before and it turns out that most foreigners usually very few (if any) true Chinese friends that they could count on.
Most Chinese just want to be friends with foreigners for:
1) Free English lessons
2) Face gaining (to be seen with a foreigner)
3) Just Curious... (forced friendship)
4) Some other beneficial gain (like to help with a statement to go abroad, visa, use the foreigner for marketing, etc.)
There are very few instances where Chinese actually make an effort to be friends with foreigners. I find that most Chinese are just too shallow... they only care about their personal gain and not so much about actual bonding and self improvement (that isn't superficial).
jph26:
I don't agree. The behavior you are describing is neither unique to Chinese nor is it particularly wrong in my opinion. Are we really so naiive as to believe that unconditional friendship is the norm in the West? If anything, I think Chinese are simply more reserved when it comes to meeting new acquaintances (and that is a BROAD generalization still.)
Too many of us I think have spent so much time here that we keep asking questions about "why are Chinese....." when they ought to be "why are people....."
Yeah, you must keep repeating your request, what I find it rude in English. I ask for something in English once, and then I'll remain the person once again. That's it.
In China, I had to get use to keep repeating my request. They don't mind it whatsoever.
My Head here is different, however I'm explaining to him how do we think and behave.
In the beginning (last Sept), he offered me he can mail an envelope to my Embassy in Beijing. Inside was signed confirmation form, I received new passport. Very important stuff as per my Embassy.
Some 45 days later (I was home, waiting for Z docs.), I received another email from Beijing Embassy with request of form. At first, I didn't really understand what do they want, and I replied 'I'm home, and I can visit Gov.'s office in person.'
Embassy: 'Not necessary. Please send us signed confirmation, you have received new passport.'
Email to Head, and his reply: 'Sorry, envelope is still in my drawer.'
I should repeat request to Head for mailing an envelope till Embassy wouldn't reply with 'Thank you! We received your letter.'
I don't think it's Q of 'friends or no'. It's the matter how Chinese behave/operate. I wrote on another thread about my watch in Shanghai's repair shop. I sent watch to shop 55 days ago for simple crown exchange. Shop issued bill with 70Rmb charge for express service included. OK. I called Shanghai shop last Thursday about whereabouts of my watch. Shop replied: 'watch will stay in repair another two weeks.'
Yesterday, I received text in Chinese, there's package waiting for me in Kaifeng Yunda or similar. It must be my watch.
If I think about dealings of Shanghai's shop, repairman probably repaired my watch some 2-3 weeks ago, and tucked it in the drawer. Shop's teller checked status of my watch (in the drawer) last Friday, and 'voila', rushingly sent it back to me. Out of this world.
icnif77:
It wasn't my watch. Another 12 days, altogether 69 days repair.
'Pretty quick' for express service.
Yeah, I asked this question before and it turns out that most foreigners usually very few (if any) true Chinese friends that they could count on.
Most Chinese just want to be friends with foreigners for:
1) Free English lessons
2) Face gaining (to be seen with a foreigner)
3) Just Curious... (forced friendship)
4) Some other beneficial gain (like to help with a statement to go abroad, visa, use the foreigner for marketing, etc.)
There are very few instances where Chinese actually make an effort to be friends with foreigners. I find that most Chinese are just too shallow... they only care about their personal gain and not so much about actual bonding and self improvement (that isn't superficial).
jph26:
I don't agree. The behavior you are describing is neither unique to Chinese nor is it particularly wrong in my opinion. Are we really so naiive as to believe that unconditional friendship is the norm in the West? If anything, I think Chinese are simply more reserved when it comes to meeting new acquaintances (and that is a BROAD generalization still.)
Too many of us I think have spent so much time here that we keep asking questions about "why are Chinese....." when they ought to be "why are people....."
Actually, I had someone tell me... they needed a new spare part (a precise part!), and couldn't find one from their supplier. So, they asked one of their team (Chinese).
He disappears for 2 weeks,
When he finally comes back, they ask him where he's been.
"You asked me to find this part. So, I went home(town) to ask if anyone there knew about it. No-one knows".
icnif77:
Do you think, he was sincere with finding a part or he planned trip home with excuse ready at return?
1st one classify to 'ben' and 2nd one to 'bad'.
Anyway, I tried hard to get ''big 'ben'' out of it.
I also have several people i know i would get money back from and yet not one of them would i count as a friend
Chinese... non-Chinese...
The only person that you can rely on is yourself.
Spiderboenz:
Who cares? 100 years from now everyone that we know will be dead. 150 years, you are completely forgotten.
Shining_brow:
I disagree Royce... it's not a matter of lonely or anything. We're talking about 'rely on'. And, the fact is, there is only 1 person in this universe who thinks your stuff is actually really important - important enough to drop whatever they're doing and just do what needs be done for you...
Now, trying to get help, asking for help - is not the question. But, relying on someone who hasn't shown they can be relied on is just silly. And even with people who have proven this, we do need to acknowledge that sometimes even they get caught up in what's on with their life.
My best mate back home says he'd do anything for me... and, in some ways, he means it (in his heart). But in his head... I can't actually rely on him to do what he says he'll do (and he knows it.. like it's his excuse - "I know I'm unreliable, so it's ok").
Chinese person; "He is/you are my very bestest foreigner friend. We are best friends now. This is my very best friend. We are gooood friends."
Other Chinese to whom he speaks; "Wow! You are so strong and powerful and we all want to be you."
Me; "Steady on mate... Anyhow, what do you want this time? What's your name again?"
There is a Chinese fable (can't remember who it involved exactly so this is the gist of the story) i heard about a man who was to visit a famous writer.
He bought a swan as a gift, but along the way, the swan was killed.
So he took a feather as a gift, but that was lost too.
When he arrived he was sad because he had no gift and related the story to the writer.
The writer said: "it is ok, because you intended to bring a gift"
Many Chinese I know think the intention to do something is enough, not the actual action itself: hence being poor on follow-through.
So i always remain skeptical when someone says they say they will do something, without actually doing it.
Whereas in reality, when someone keeps their word and does as they said they would do, especially if is a request from a friend from which there could be no monetary (or any kind of gain), that is the sign of true friendship.
Sadly very few Chinese people are like this.
coineineagh:
interesting. it's like the superficial version of "it's the thought that counts." except ruined by face and lack of thought.
Robk:
That is interesting and sounds very nice philosophically speaking... but when you look further into it...
It sounds as if, because they spent some of their emotion and brain power... on you that you should be appreciative. That sounds more like someone that is self-absorbed. They believe themselves to be so important that merely thinking or feelings something towards you SHOULD be rewarded or have an impact and be acknowledged so that they can gain face.
Someone who thinks like that really didn't have the intention to make you feel good or impact you without some kind of self-serving benefit.
So I think it misses your the point of your story because the person in your story actually followed through with action (well at least we are led to believe... the person in the story could have easily lied lol). Whereas, many Chinese... do not...
How many times have you been asked your WeChat or your phone number... and gave it with the Chinese party NEVER even trying to contact you?
royceH:
Yes. But...at the end of the day.....what are you saying?
Let me try.....Ummm. that they are disingenuous wasters.....Of our time?
sorrel:
When someone says:
"it is the thought that counts" it is usually because they have done something that was not quite right, but put a bit of effort into it.
Whereas many Chinese i know think that having the intention to do something (by saying that they will do it) is the same as doing it, so they see this as a way out of actually doing something.
And oh, don't they get annoyed when you have to keep asking them do it.
How many times have you been invited to a place, only for it never to happen?
If i invite someone to visit, I follow through.
Many Chinese people, even friends, are just unreliable.
They say it is not to 'hurt feelings' but it just makes them look flaky.
Whereas if a non-Chinese person won't do something, they will tell you they won't.
this might be related to the poor multitasking that people have witnessed, like thoughtlessly abandoning your child to buy something in a shop.
it's not the first time i've heard that you can't rely on people to do things. icnif77 says you must keep repeating the request, but i just mentally prepare for the likelihood of things not getting done on time.
when someone asks my help and i agree (i won't say yes to every request, especially if it looks like they didn't try anything before asking me), it's fairly high on my priority list. it will get done within a day, and if not, it gets labeled urgent in my mind.
even my Chinese wife will listen to Chinese people speaking before listening to me. in this sense, the unreliable aspect may be a sign that we are low on people's priority list. we see requests as pleas for help and respond as we would to any Mayday - with haste. they see requests as an indulgence, and will give you the courtesy of their aid when they see fit, as long as nothing personal needs to be done.
the only requests i've gone China-style on are proofreading requests with vague compensation offers. similarly, requests for quick baidu searches may go unanswered because the person doesn't want to become your personal search engine - perhaps misjudging how often you plan on making requests.
royceH:
Just read it. Shenma? But I get the jist. We should meet. Peaceout!
royceH:
Just read it. Shenma? But I get the jist. We should meet. Peaceout!
icnif77:
I never act same as them. If I promise, I fulfil my promise or I apologise I can't.
I agree, I'm prepared too when I get their promise
, but at 'my letter to the Bj Embassy', I had to exit China few days later and travel home. I sincerely forgot about it.
It was just a letter mailing. He call Yunda from his office, and when Yunda guy is at the gate, Head must scroll down, and give him letter and 20Rmb. And not that I'm some busy guy with mailing requests every other day. On the top of that, he offered me, he can mail my letter.
I have Chinese friends I can definetly rely on. I think they'd help me out regardless of the circumstances. They re a big part of the attraction of China
Short answer: No, you can't.
These people only use foreigners for face. Women usually want free English teachers and "just want to make friends" so they can tell their girl-friends they know a foreigner. Don't ever expect to meet any of them. That's a loss of face to be seen in public with one (maybe not in Shanghai or a bigger city, but in 2nd and 3rd tier cities, it's the norm).
Men only want the face that comes in showing they know a foreigner. It makes them look good in their boy-friends' eyes.
Normally, any time a Chinese person comes up to me, I meet them with overt suspicion. I can sum up their intentions in about a minute and then I react accordingly.
Chhris:
Hey old-timer, don't disencourage the young studs here, actually it's not too complicated to get a girlfriend this way. If you play your cards right you can easily change the relationship from just being language partners into... something different :P
Friends yes, strangers no.
But I am a very trusting person.
For example, when I pay the bill in my local bar, I just hand over my wallet and let the barmaid take whatever the bill is. I do that both sober or drunk.
To me its a test. I am testing myself. Do I practice what I preach? And not in a religious way.
I believe that all people are fundamentally honest. Dishonesty is something that is taught.
Another example, myself and a group of Chinese friends are into photography. We loan each other $2k lenses all the time. Its almost as if all our camera gear is a shared resource. One of the group has my Canon 24-70 at the moment, Next time I see her I will be borrowing her 16-35 
ScotsAlan:
Ah, the wallet thing works both ways. When I hand over my wallet, how does she know I will not kick off and accuse her of theft? Its also a test of their trust in me.
I knew Cuban guy in Florida:
me: ''wassup friendo....."
he: ''why are you calling me 'my friend?''
me: ''because........''
he: ''always when I hear 'my friend' I run away."
me: ''why's that?''
he: ''because it never happened somebody would say 'my friend, here is US$100 for you!
And it always happened 'my friend, give me this, my friend give me that!'' 
I have several Chinese friends who would go out of their way to help me out, and have done so in the past. If I ever let them know about some problem I'm having, they'll almost invariably offer to help. I normally refuse, but when I accept, they always follow through with the offer. If I had a newborn baby kid, I'd trust them with its life. So I'm a bit nonplussed by this idea that Chinese people are unreliable, or don't honour promises. I guess you folks just need to find some better Chinese friends.
I have a few friends that I can rely on. The thing is--I have a few EXTREMELY WESTERNIZED friends that I can rely on. People who have spent years learning English, reading (not memorizing and regurgitating) Western literature, and who aspire to be real entrepreneurs (not slimy cockroach businesspeople) working with other Westerners (and not just suck one person for all they are worth, one by one). Yeah, it took me time to find those people. I really lucked into them.
You can. It has nothing to do with nationality,it all depends on the individual. I have met Chinese and foreigners who are not being trustful.
Shining_brow:
Wrong topic, Vicky. "Trust" and "rely" are 2 different concepts.
As Scots pointed out above, he can leave his money with a bargirl, and he 'trusts' her she won't take his money.
But, if I ask someone to do something for me, I expect to only have to ask once (maybe twice if they're busy). If they're not doing it, then they aren't reliable.
My best friend I trust completely, but I know I can't rely on him!
And yes, it's generally true that such things are not culture dependent... unless you're brought up in a culture that values being reliable, vs a culture where it's not valued. In China, it's not a valuable trait!
Yeah, they're definitely not helpful and you certainly can't rely on them to be responsible for anything they say. In their worklife, Jobs with critical responsibilities only get accomplished by the boss having a stranglehold on their job and if they screw up, they are gone. Anything less and they'll avoid working. They have a very out of sight, out of mind version of friendship as well (unless they are bored). It's a different mentality for sure. Pretty much anything that requires a little bit of effort is avoided.
Of course there are exceptions and I'm not bashing Chinese people but given the pool of people being so huge, the number of times you run into this is quite staggering. People with a closer sense of friendship and reliability are almost always from a minority and are not Han.
It's really sad....I could write tons of books about these folks here. What I've learned is about Chinese folks here is they don't understand the true meaning of friendship. To them friendship means business. They only try to fool you to think that you are a friend but behind your back or when they are with their own people what they say about you is entirely different. If you understand their language I'm sure you know what I'm talking. They gossip and laugh at you right under your nose and when you try to ask them they change the topic and lie. I mean they lie about everything. Even their kids lie just like the adults. They think they're smarter. Even students who don't know anything that you are teaching them try to as smart you.
Funniest thing is I've still got one of them like that, this lady who actually told my boss to fire me and my wife from teaching at a school they begged me to come and work for them about 3 years ago. They've grown tired of us already. I am African black from SA so she wants white brethren from USA now. Is this racism? . We're actually jobless now. This same lady actually up till now tells me I am her best friend....OH LORD HAVE MERCY! This incident happened about just a month ago.
RandomGuy:
You have to outsmart them. One time I was fired from a center after I found most of their students by myself, the place was new. They likely thought I wasn't needed anymore and they could hire some cheap high school dropout to replace me. They made an enormous mistake.
Having good bonds with the students and knowing that Chinese are always after better deals I took most of them away with me, I offered them private tuition at my apartment instead. I charged them less than the center did but I would make a lot more money out of it since there was no middle man.
The center ran out of business a couple of months later to never open again. They couldn't find students by themselves.
Actually the owner begged me to come back, but I am not stupid, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
I have a few chinese friends who I actually get a long with and we are genuine friends. But then again I have tons of Chinese friends who will call me out once in a while when they are with their friends for face, "Look! I have a foreign friend!".
Seem as I live in a small City, it's generally just to show you have a foreign friend more then anything. But I can easily name 5 Chinese friends of mine who are actual genuine friends and my colleagues who I also consider as being my genuine friends.
Seems never any forethought, and never any follow up. People closer to me will go through some motions, but in the end, it is always vague or incomplete. If I seek clarification or ask a "what if" type question, they will bothered or frustrated in that I want to make sure I've got the details... Yet, usually, there are no details. So, I end up frustrated.
I usually use the favor of a Chinese friend as a warm-up, motivator or preceptor for actually doing myself - Sometimes I just have to build up enough information, and confidence to initiate an active solution to the situation.
