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Q: Can you share your observations related to mistress culture in China?
Have you ever heard stories about mistress from your Chinese or foreigner friends? Can you share your observations related to mistress culture in China?
I personally knew some mistresses who became extremely rich and i saw so many young girls hang out with owners of some night clubs. I also have a Chinese piano teacher in an university where she plays piano for ballet classes.
She tells me that every friday night , so many girls are picked by rich old guys.She said she sees a long line of expensive cars to pick these girls on Friday around 5-6 pm.
Also there is good article related to that:
No quick fix for China's mistress culture
There is something I must tell you about China: It is rather morally creative in the usage of its women.
There isn't a hotel, massage parlor, ktv, or conference hall in town that isn't frequented by "little sisters" (xiaojie), escort personnel (baopo), hostesses (peinv), or other types of prostitutes (jinv). There's a name for any relationship a female plaything may fall into:
Here are the "second wives" (er laopo), women [who may have
family or kids but] who indulge in extramarital affairs with men, married or not. Then we have "the thirds" (disanzhe) who are casual love affairs only.
The queen of all female roles, however - in direct competition with the faithful "wife" (laopo)- is the "mistress" (qingren). The mistress, a femme fatal, not only embodies adventure and carnal pleasures, but is also the surest status symbol a man can wish for: She shows you have money!
Technically, only married men can have mistresses; otherwise, if the gentleman is single, we would refer to his female company - however many of them- as simple "girlfriends" (nvpengyou). The Chinese tradition of maintaining mistresses is based on what good Christians would refer to as adultery - a sin; yet in China it is mere custom - a habit.
Consequently, when Westerners first come to China, they are utterly perplexed by the strict division here between marriage, romance, and sex - for which, in Chinese thinking, of course (at least) three different types of women are required.
Xu Qiya, a Jiangsu party official, had clearly set a local record with 140 mistresses; we know because he kept a sex diary; but he isn't an inventor: In fact, I have yet to meet a dulcet Chinese girl who has not been offered a gift from a married man at some time. At least, that's what they told me.
Accepting any gift from a married man, whether it being a handbag, jewelry, a car, a trip to the beaches of Hainan, is the unspoken agreement of becoming the mistress of that benefactor. It is the lure and excitement of an extraordinary life-style - luxurious, free, illicit, and irresponsible - that drives ever more 20-somethings not to marry, or at least to postpone it until their bodies become less marketable.
Those entrepreneurial women, of course, fill the pool of potential future mistresses in China to the brim. If a woman is not married by the age of 26, she "expired" and is usually stigmatized as "leftover woman" (shengnv).
Now let us talk about the situation of the Chinese married man. Post-marital infidelity is encouraged in China just as pre-marital sex is encouraged in Europe. In comparison to the West, only very few wives in China will file for divorce upon discovery of her husband's infidelity. It is rather sad.
In China, sex and power are a pair. State-run Xinhua News recently found that 95% of all corrupt officials in China also kept mistresses. And Tom Doctoroff, an economist, estimates that second wives probably account for one-third of China's entire consumption of luxury goods.
Let us talk about China's capital, Beijing. From top to bottom, it isn't a place for connubial happiness: It's a very patriarchal society (there is mistress culture, but no such things as mister culture), and some of the most powerful men, including the Communist Party of China, create and procreate here, trailed by legions of businessmen, scholars, diplomats, and entrepreneurs, who mostly see no problem in renting a maid for warming their pillows.
In fact, the magazine Business Insider quoted a vice-ministerial-level official who insisted that "there is no official at his level who doesn't have at least a few lovers" It is a must-have.
The victim is the young woman of China. As her feelings for any particular man dwindles (they are all cheaters, no?), she too becomes emotionally detached, and regards being a mistress as a form of business, or transactions of favors - a form of consumerism.
There are several grades of "maintaining" (baoyang) a mistress: The cheapest, of course, is to bed a university student. She is young, flexible, poor, and full of romantic ideas in her head. She will eventually marry a fellow classmate, but until then she may want to sneak out and bag a sugar daddy in Wudaokou, Zhongguancun, or Shaoyang district.
Next is the working woman. She is independent, has experience, and owns or rents her own place. (She might be even married, but, with her husband banging the next hostess at the local karaoke bar, she probably thinks what the heck.)
Perhaps the highest cost of maintenance goes to the trophy mistress (huaping, a "flower pot"). Her goal and profession is to conquer the most powerful man she can find at a time. It's a life-style - it's her religion. Enormous financial resources, and a good amount of drama, are necessary to snag such high-profile gold digger.
It has been observed that many Chinese women opt out of the Chinese tradition of cheating husbands and try to find a foreigner, preferably from a traditional monogamous society like Western Europe. Those "foreigners" (laowai) may also cheat on their spouse, of course, but for individual reasons, not, as is the case in China, as a social prescription or norm.
And so the mistress culture of China lives on, from vulgar to lustrous and glittering, and if the endless supply of young women for successful men does not ebb - and if women don't divorce - the husband and his lovers will happily drive the market for luxury goods, hotel rooms, and publications about mistresses, and, almost as an afterthought, minister to their ethical ruin.
Dr Thorsten Pattberg is a research fellow at The Institute for Advanced Humanistic Studies, Peking University.
I think it's a side effect of the left over women stuff.
A woman has to be married before 30. But she does not want to be married at 20, or 22, or 24, she has to marry at age 25-30.
So what is she to do before she is 25? Does she get a boyfriend who might turn serious and want to marry her? Nope. She can get some married guy with cash to entertain her. It's safe. When she gets to marring age she will go find a husband.
It's not the guys that control culture, it's the women
thelatinodancer:
So what is she to do before she is 25?
She should go to sleep with a rich old guy for cash or gucci bags? Is that your logic?
In that case rich guys should never merry.They can always find a young girl in ktvs.Why should they pay too much to merry?
You think woman shape the society.I doubt it.
BHGAL:
my step daughter is 25, soon to be 26. She is in no hurry to meet or marry a man.
she is still doing an education/work thing which I do not understand.... internship??
I do not know...
she is learning, got room and board and a few bucks. in Shenzhen.
seems to be happy and getting by well, even when I offer a few bucks she hesitates and gets MOM's OK to accept.
She has a number of friends in the same boat... classsmates doing the same.
maybe there will be a "panic mode" in the next couple years, but I sure do not see it now.
Eorthisio:
Scots is right, women have the upper hand today in China.
Before they had no power at all, now with the gender gap they can be extremely demanding from men while they are young.
ScotsAlan:
I dont mean all women of course, because all people are different. But I definately think women are in charge here, the men just dont realise it :)
It is sad but true. For all you wechat users out there, here is a little game. Go to the look around option in the discover section. It will show you all the people who are in the area. Try and guess which of the women are aspiring mistresses.
dongbeiren:
I assumed a lot of them were just prostitutes, not that there's a huge difference.
Eorthisio:
Agreed with dongbeiren. Prostitute, mistress, gold digger, no difference.
Lord_hanson:
I also agree, the main difference is how many "clients" they have.
gouxiong:
Eorthisio,
I assume this is a different topic. The problem discussed here is the relation of married person with a lover.
If we go into prostitutes, mistresses and 'golddiggers' equation so in many cases you shall also add wives ... Because if you define the 'prostitution' by material compensation in exchange for sex, care, 'love' so it's a case of many of married couples around the world (of course not all of them though!). But in majority, of by men dominated society (which is not only China by the way), it fits quite well - female are usually compromising on own career and future development in exchange for material support from their men.
If I would accept your above equation so many wives just fall into the same category - and having a marriage certificate for it does not make them any better ...
jetfire9000:
Guo xiong and I are also discussing the differences between prostitution and gold digging ect in his thumbs downed comment. I used the definition of prostitution in chinese as 卖淫 (selling sex) to argue that most of those different types of roles are mostly the same in substance and only different in their appearance. What's the difference between a mistress and a prostitute Guo Xiong, can you tell us? I don't think there is any significant difference to put the two in separate categories.
xinyuren:
Now I know gouxiong is truly Chinese. He thinks his wife is a prostitute.
gouxiong:
How do you know I even have wife?
I just follow your strange logic. If mistress is exclusive prostitute so why wife is not? Just because you say so? That sounds like a real argument ...
But you are right that in Chinese there is prostitutes ranking which starts with the highest rank - wife.
Apparently Chinese and you are following the same logic ... Just Chinese are in this case a bit less hypocritical 
xinyuren:
Maybe this is hard to explain to you because you are a Chinese man. Western cultures don't usually view their wives as prostitutes. Prostitution is a business. Perhaps this is the source of your confusion. In China, marriage is a business too. But outside of China, there is a multitude of men who see a difference between a relationship based on finance and a relationship of the heart. I don't blame you for not seeing the difference, considering where your homeland is. So please ignore my comments. They are not meant for Chinese eyes.
jetfire9000:
@Guo Xiong, your definition of prostitute = wife and wife = prostitute does not make any distinction between the two, which is a fundamental flaw. If there were no difference as you suggest, then there would not be the need to use different words to distinguish between them.
Prostitutes and mistresses accept money and luxury items for their "services." They may or may not have different clients at a time. There is no commonly understood social contract here and individual agreements may vary - this is not a legally defined institutuion. Anyway, as soon as one side ends its exchange of services, whatever they may be, the whole "agreement" soon disappears and both move to greener pastures and do business with others. Yes, this is a business transaction at the heart. Wives on the other hand are part of a legally defined (and morally acceptable) institutuion, bound to their husband forever, as he is with her. In many marriage ceremonies, there is often a clause demonstrating this intent: "in richness or poor, sickness and health.." ect. It is an oath taken which rules out the greater part of "business dealing" which is ever so present in the type of relations you advocate. No, they are not allowed to have extra marital relations unless they have come to a private and non traditional understanding (which is a huge exception to the rule, the type of which you believe should be universally applicable simply because it is your country's specialty.)
gouxiong:
The equation about mistress being exclusive prostitute was brought by xinyuren.
Mistress does not have to be paid. She can do it just from love. There are all types of relations.
If such mistress (but even the paid one) is then exclusive prostitute so there is no reason to distinguish it from wife and that this type of relation is defined by law does not change anything on this fact.
Many wives are also exchanging sex for material compensation so even though this relation is set in the law it still fulfills your definition of prostitution (in case we extend it towards by xinyuren entered exclusivity).
On top of that especially in Europe now many couples do not select to get married even though they live like a family including delivering children - these relations are then not set in majority of EU countries jurisdiction. So does that mean that these girls are exclusive (or not exclusive) prostitutes?
I just wanted to point out that this is absolutely ridiculous comparison.
As per my opinion prostitution should be legalized - who wants to use a prostitute shall be free to do that and bear consequences.
If somebody wants to have a lover of any type so there is no force which can stop such a person and as long as the person is willing to accept all the consequences so there is nobody here who has right to stop such person.
In the history there were existent many non monogamous societies and they were quite happy with their set up.
It's just a strange Christian tradition which effects the way of thinking of certain people.
Fair enough - if somebody will decide to live without any partner the whole life - or for sake of example just with his or her dog - so I have no problem with it.
The problem starts only when these people start shouting they are the only ones who are right and all the others are acting against the society!
Luckily majority of societies do not think so!
jetfire9000:
xinyuren:
@ guo - 1. Marriage is not just a Christian tradition. It is a human tradition. your argument there is false.
2. It is a human tradition because it is the most stable institution in which to raise a healthy family.
3. Families are the lifeblood of any strong civilization. Undermining the marriage institution damages family cohesion, thus damaging society.
4. Mistresses (this is the original topic, please don't forget it) undermines the marriage institution.
Do you disagree with any of the facts I have presented? If so please state your argument because thus far, you have only attempted to argue for the legalization of hedonism. You've mentioned nothing about the the affects of it on families and societies. In fact you have avoided commenting on the important issues altogether(for obvious reasons). Could it be that you hold an indefensible position and its better that you just shut up now?
Shining_brow:
From the quick skim I did of this post and comments, Guo needs to explain why the female is always considered the prostitute, and not the male?
After all, in a marriage, or any extra-marital affair, or non-married monogamous relationship, why are you considering that it is the man who gets a sexual benefit while 'paying' a woman? Why not the other way around? Why can't the man love the woman "in payment" of giving her sex?
Lord_hanson:
How is a mistress like a wife? Men generally sacrifice things for their mistress. Wives generally sacrifice things for their husbands.
My first year in China I had an old Chinese colleague who was also a teacher at my school. He had a sweet little daughter who I tutored every week. The guy was also really nice during the day, but at night he would take me out drinking and out to foot massages and ktvs. He told me not to tell his daughter and that everyone, even the headmaster of the school, would do things like this. One time he took me out to a ktv where there were a bunch of ktv girls. During one of my songs I saw him on the side making out with one of them. He called her his girlfriend.
Strawberry66:
Maybe he doesn't even love his wife. You know most Chinese do robot dating and stepped into marriage within less than one year dating.
gouxiong:
Well going to such KTV is quite normal business practice in China and if KTV is legal so there is no sex involved at all. The girl just takes care of you during singing for agreed sitting fee and tries to make you drink and eat as much as possible as they get a commission from it.
If you go to same KTV more frequently so you may then prefer one or the other girl and call her your 'girlfriend' - but it does not have to have anything in common with anything beyond KTVs doors.
Actually keeping KTV girls as mistress is probably quite expensive hobby and I doubt that any Chinese teacher would be able to afford as their salaries are usually much lower than these KTV's girls salaries.
If you do not like such atmosphere so next time just do not join ...
Eorthisio:
gouxiong you forget the bribes, teachers in China get many red envelopes from the parents. If they are in charge of recruiting new students they can charge huge amounts of money to those who failed to pass them. Don't deny it, this is common practice at every schools, both public and private.
No different from officials who get no more than 5000RMB per month salaries at top level, yet they drive expensive sport cars and live in luxurious apartments.
gouxiong:
Eorthisio,
May be - I do not know. But what has the bribery to do with the fact that in legal KTVs there is no sex involved?
People usually do not go to KTV to meet their girlfriends but to enjoy themselves.
Many westerners do not like this type of entertainment due to many reasons.
The easiest approach to solve this issue is not to attend then.
But why trying to restrict the others on their enjoyment which is absolutely legal and in case of legit KTVs not even involving any infidelity (of any nature) which apparently is a big issue to few guys in here.
I think it's a side effect of the left over women stuff.
A woman has to be married before 30. But she does not want to be married at 20, or 22, or 24, she has to marry at age 25-30.
So what is she to do before she is 25? Does she get a boyfriend who might turn serious and want to marry her? Nope. She can get some married guy with cash to entertain her. It's safe. When she gets to marring age she will go find a husband.
It's not the guys that control culture, it's the women
thelatinodancer:
So what is she to do before she is 25?
She should go to sleep with a rich old guy for cash or gucci bags? Is that your logic?
In that case rich guys should never merry.They can always find a young girl in ktvs.Why should they pay too much to merry?
You think woman shape the society.I doubt it.
BHGAL:
my step daughter is 25, soon to be 26. She is in no hurry to meet or marry a man.
she is still doing an education/work thing which I do not understand.... internship??
I do not know...
she is learning, got room and board and a few bucks. in Shenzhen.
seems to be happy and getting by well, even when I offer a few bucks she hesitates and gets MOM's OK to accept.
She has a number of friends in the same boat... classsmates doing the same.
maybe there will be a "panic mode" in the next couple years, but I sure do not see it now.
Eorthisio:
Scots is right, women have the upper hand today in China.
Before they had no power at all, now with the gender gap they can be extremely demanding from men while they are young.
ScotsAlan:
I dont mean all women of course, because all people are different. But I definately think women are in charge here, the men just dont realise it :)
@gouxiong : You tell every time that nothing is wrong with that as long as people agree. That is why china is full of mistresses and girls who sell their body all the time. Some of the hookers are even married , they are promoted from being a part time mistress to a full time paid wife.
And these woman rise children. So you can imagine what kind of kids they will rise.
gouxiong:
Yes, China is indeed full of mistresses as well as prostitutes.
I wish you would have a chance to have a trip to Prague. You can believe me that Prague is also full of prostitutes (prostitution in Czechia is not illegal). And a lot of Czech couples are infidel to each other.
And these couples also have children (and even these prostitutes sometimes have children).
What does it say?
That despite of huge culture difference this one thing is quite similar?
I just want to say that so far everybody in the West as well as in China has own freedom to have or not to have a mistress (or lover in case of female) and subsequently shall bear all the consequences of such act.
I am not saying it's good to have a mistress but I am also not saying it's bad.
I just think that the uproar and presumable moral aspect of many people is a bit hypocritical.
I would much more prefer if the contributors not liking having a mistress change their approach to: 'I do not like it and therefore I do not do it. The rest is none of my business because who am I to judge over other peoples lives. '
xinyuren:
In gouxiong's blind effort to defend China, he misses the whole point. A man with a mistress is failing his family. He is betraying his wife. Is there anything good in that? Is there anything positive to be said about it? If yes, please state your enlightened point of view. If not, we can all agree to it being wrong and thus worthy of being judged. edit: Or we can apply your hilarious notion to other aspects of human society. For example corporate embezzlement. It's nobody business except the thief and the company. Why should it be illegal. Stop judging!. Or rape. Nobody's business except the rapist and the raped. Stop judging! let them settle it between themselves. What about computer hacking? He's just playing with his computer. leave him alone! Everybody should just mind their own business!
gouxiong:
Oh xinyuren,
I never said it's good. I also never said it's bad. I never said any man shall or shall not do that.
I just say that everything indicates that such behavior looks to be quite natural around the world and probably there are reasons (sometimes quite complex) behind that.
In this part I am not fighting for or against China.
I just say that I see no reason for such an uproar about the point which is much more complex than just pointing a finger on a man or woman having a lover.
And I honestly do not see (quite luckily) a chance that other people would really influence such persons who select to have or become a lover.
xinyuren:
@gouxiong. That's your problem. You have no basic concept of right or wrong. There is nothing right about this topic. If this behavior seems natural to you, then perhaps you have never been or seen a family that has been broken because of infidelity. Or perhaps the reason you don't make a judgment on this is because you have a mistress. Either way, your ideas are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
jetfire9000:
I wouldn't even argue that Guo Xiong is defending China. Guo Xiong is blatantly insulting China. Perhaps I am falling for a very clever troll. I am not sure at all. If it is true, then shame on me. I just don't want China being portrayed in a way which is to fit Holland simply because Holland is his idea of a paradise. I would prefer that he go pursue is happiness by going to Holland instead of trying to argue for China becoming Holland.
xinyuren:
agreed, he is insulting China. Even the Chinese government has the sense to publicly frown upon keeping mistresses (while at the same time doing so).
Shining_brow:
Actually Xin, you're making moralistic judgements where they aren't valid, and you chose to slide very quickly down a strawman slope.
Firstly, comaprisons between having a mistress, or any type of extra-marital affair, do NOT equate, even remotely, to the other crimes you suggest. They are crimes, where people are suffering against their will. The same may not be truly correct regarding mistresses.
Secondly, it's clear that you are an absolutist when it comes to moral imperatives - there is 'right' and 'wrong', and they are true and real concepts that exist outside of our conscious awareness. I also presume that you think the concept of 'marriage' is also the same - it is something that sort of exists outside of the mere physicality of the documents, words, etc.
"Is there anything good in that? Is there anything positive to be said about it?"
Yes. Well, in reference to the actual act of the physical side of things, not the 'betrayal' side of things. After all, the 'betrayal' is only valid if the wife (apparently completely forgetting that wives cheat too!) fully expects the husband to be 100% completely loyal and monogamous. If this is not the case, and Chinese culture clearly shows that it, for the most part, isn't, then it's not a betrayal! If you are fairly sure that the business partner you've chosen to join with is going to rip you off, then you can't really claim to be 'betrayed' when you are. In a culture where high ranking men have mistresses, and the wives aren't divorcing, I think it's rather naive to say they are being 'betrayed'.
It also, rather obviously, calls into question the concept of 'marriage'. We need to remember that marrying for love is a very recent norm in some societies (including Chinese, and including many European countries). It's quite obvious that the concept of marriage to many is quite different. As an extremely clear indicator of this, polygamy. Also, arranged marriages (especially arrangements between families when the spouses are still very young kids when they get betrothed). Marriage, then and now, is about power, influence, and kids. Not about love. Also remember, the right to marry was - and in some places, still is - firmly held in the hands of the parents/father. In most European rites of marriage, there is still this leftover in the form of the father 'giving away' his daughter.
As for the sex act itself - is there a positive if it's not with one's spouse? Well, history has shown overwhelmingly the answer is yes.Sure, there are times and examples to prove otherwise... but prostitution lives on, quite successfully. And it's not just single guys (or girls) going to see them.
What's the BIGGEST problem in all of this? To me, it keeps a patriarchal society intact, and sexual mores are strictly controlled (in a repressive sort of way).
xinyuren:
@shining - that bit about the other crimes was meant in jest. Apparently you didn't get that. As for your other part, a marriage is a binding contract between two people. Whether is was arranged or for love is besides the point. I never mentioned love being a stipulation. Anyways, i must assume that you have a loveless marriage (if you are even married at all), but please speak for yourself. Outside of China, where there is marriage, love is also implied. One party or both parties breaking the contract constitutes a betrayal. There is no getting around that. You make the point that the sex act in itself is positive (are you serious?). If that's the only positive point you can come up with about keeping a mistress (sex feels good, so it is good), then your argument is as worthless as guoxiong's. We are not talking about 12 year olds who are just hitting puberty. How can you deem something positive if it causes damage to your family relationship? The only way you can successfully argue in favor of mistresses is if you can prove that the family arrangement is worthless and not worth being loyal to. Good luck with that. Like it or not, morals are useful and sometimes right is right and wrong is definitely wrong. It seems you are all for getting nookie on the side and cheating on your wife. You are not alone. But this is one of the reasons why everything is screwed up in this world. There are grave consequences for breaking moral guidelines, as I am quite sure you have experienced. By the way, polygamy is dead except in a few undeveloped cultures. Get over that. Please don't tell me you view that as positive too.
Shining_brow:
"that bit about the other crimes was meant in jest." I know what it was meant to do, but you took GX's opinion, and one side of it, and used that as further 'examples' - examples which do not actually fit the situation. It's called a 'Strawman" argument - build up something which appears related, and then cut it down, thus 'disproving' the original argument. You didn't.
"Whether is was arranged or for love is besides the point." So, even if the marriage is made without one's total consent, it's still binding? The Taliban and ISIS will love to hear this in the Christian world. However... a marriage made due to money or security, etc (eg, gold-digger or passport-hunter) is still just as meaningful as one based on real love??
"but please speak for yourself." NO! And, just like yourself, I won't!! I will speak for all those who you choose to ignore, and those you choose to attack! I will also speak for an ideal world - which may or may not come to pass. (if you've read my other reply, I told you - I'm only finding flaws in the arguments - not stating my actual opinion - until the last bit on my previous comment in GX's post).
" You make the point that the sex act in itself is positive (are you serious?). If that's the only positive point you can come up with about keeping a mistress (sex feels good, so it is good)," - Again, choosing to miss the point! You have a serious case of selective reading! A - if sex wasn't 'good' or 'positive', please explain why so much of it happens without the intent to have children. B - because I realise there's more to it than that, I also understand that for many humans, the pressure, angst, issues, etc that can build up from not having sex can be negatively expressed through other avenues - not limited to suicide and murder! (as well as rape, and other violent crimes). Do I think this is ideal? No - but I'm also not going to ignore humans and how they operate (as you choose to do!) And, the argument of "but some do" is only valid for 'some'. The argument is just as valid as it's opposite - some people like to murder, therefore everyone should/can... please explain why that argument isn't just as valid! (and, again, I ask you to address the argument - not try to interpret that as a position I actually adhere to!)
"How can you deem something positive if it causes damage to your family relationship?" Actually, that's an incredibly well-timed question. I've just sent what may well be my final contact email with my family. I'm basically completely cutting myself off from them. It 'damages' the family relationship - and yet, it is going to be very positive for all involved (if the other parties ever bother to understand WHY such things are being said and done!) Sorry Xin, but the family unit isn't the super idyllic awesome thing you think it is.. it's made up of humans - and they have a great many faults, and a great many ways to destroy themselves. BEing married and in a family does NOT automatically make things better - and often times - makes things much much worse to hold on to.
"if you can prove that the family arrangement is worthless and not worth being loyal to" Holy crap - you like to make things easy for me - don' t you??? (and then, ignore what's written). Ok - the 'family arrangement' isn't, in and of itself, worth much at all. I suggest, it's the persons within the arrangement that make the difference (and here is where you and I might agree on this point... briefly). If the people in the 'family arrangement' are complete arseholes - and this includes those relationships where the husband and wife support each other in committing violent crimes, rapes, kidnappings, etc etc - then I would suggest the 'family arrangement' is not a good thing. I would also say the same for those who get or are totally addicted to drugs. Xin, stop trying to make every family and every person into the ideal human being you want them to be... it's not going to happen! Some families completely suck - and it's not lack of morals or virtues that's the problem. "Any arsehole can become a parent" or get married - this doesn't make for a 'family relationship' that deserves to be "loyal to".
And, stop trying to display all humans as saints and angels.
As for the total argument itself - what GX (and myself, to a lesser degree) are arguing is that humans ought to be allowed to make choices for themselves. There is a difference between 'morals' and 'ethics'. Dictating morals doesn't work. The world you are after will only come about when people's ethics make a change - not just rigorously kowtowing to someone else's moral paradigms. AND, if two people have the personal ethic that, while they are together (married, whatever) that it is ok for (either of) them to have sex outside the marriage, that's THEIR choice - NOT yours! And, such a decision is NOT going to destroy society (nor damage their relationship, nor fuck up their kids).
Polygamy... is for those who choose it. I don't see a major problem with it, if the participants are emotionally stable people. FTR, the concept does actually work, and has been shown to work, in a number of societies (I'm using the word 'work' in the sense that it does not destroy the mental/emotional health of the participants, nor their children)
xinyuren:
@ shining. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm done debating with you. But you shared (perhaps unintentionally) some pretty deep stuff about yourself there. So sad. But the really sad part is you think that any part of our worldwide society works. You are right, many families are screwed up. But what you don't realize that the reason for the mass screw up is they share your views. They think morality is debatable.
Shining_brow:
Xin - when you start debating with me, let me know!
So, let me get this right - first you choose not to 'debate' me because you think my 'values' are so bad that I'm not worth debating (ie, personal attack on something I didn't write (quote: " I don't expect you to agree with me on what constitutes a healthy family. You think cheating on your spouse is fine. The majority of people will not agree with you. I'll leave it at that. I suspect you have seen a few divorces in your life." and "You may think otherwise, but I don't live in your world (thank god). As for your supposition about being able to successfully sneak around behind your family's back, I won't even address that issue. To even bring that up shows me you have no idea about honesty and behaving honorably in a relationship. Really! We should discuss this no further. You seem like the kind of man that would screw anything that moves, regardless of the potential consequences. There's really no point in us having a discussion.".. underlinings representing a) your personal attacks, b) your choosing to apply meaning to something that wasn't written, and c) your choice to not bother to debate, but to to just make personal attacks), and then, after I point out I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument, you say you won't 'debate' me because I'm not actually taking a stance.. ("As I said, I don't debate people who don't have the courage to take a side." Yeah, way to go! Make up your mind, Xin! Followed by "You say you don't have a side. I don't believe you." Holy crap - any chance you'll ever find a reason to have a debate?
Similarly, you firstly insinuate that I must have been divorced a couple of times ("I suspect you have seen a few divorces in your life"), and then when I point out I've never been married, "I was wrong about you being married and I'm not surprised, actually". You like having things both ways, don't you!!
I have barely started to talk about my views. And, honestly, they're not something I've tried to 'defend' or even suggest on here (except above, where I clearly stated my opinion).
GX seems to have it right - you are a fanatic. Because of this, you seem incapable of actually debating a topic you feel strongly about. This is something I've noticed over a number of threads/topics.
In philosophy (which is what my first degree is in), it is a good idea to see several different sides to a debate, so one can get a clear idea of how to refute claims made by the opponent(s). In debating, one is also expected to debate for or against things they don't actually agree with. I am capable of doing this. Because, you know, sometimes in doing so, one is capable of changing one's opinions and views!
You talk about 'debate' - and yet you refuse to! It seems you're only able to yell at someone, and tell them they're wrong if they don't agree with you (without actually providing much evidence... "look at the wrecked marriages" - ok, let's look at them... let's take a REAL GOOD LONG LOOK at those marriages, and explain PRECISELY how they have stuffed up society...).
Making big, general, absolutist claims doesn't actually make them right! You do, actually, in debating, NEED to prove your case... not just use fancy slogans.
I am in China from last 6 months, and based on all the things I've heard about Mistress culture... I completely agree with ScotsAlan's answer. It makes sense women controlling the culture, its big bucks, good experience, prepares you for the future...
Chinese men usually have more money then sense. Any good looking woman can make a lot of money if they don't care about morals. You can set up a fake wechat account. Send some random porn photo of the net (BSing and saying it is you) in exchange for hongbaos. Wechat is almost designed for prostitution.
If someone is cheating on their partner it is clearly wrong. It undermines the trust between two people and if children are involved what kind of example do you think it sends them. Would you send your children to school to be educated by someone who can't be trusted at best or is a prostitute at worst. I believe if you are in a relationship you should either honour that relationship and live up to the the promise you either made or implied by entering that relationship or just admit that you are so weak you can be lead around by a dick ( or for a woman the promise of a dick).
xinyuren:
another good point. a man (or woman) with a mistress has deceived his own family. How can he be trusted to be honest with his fellow man? How good is his promises or oath? It brings into question his whole character. Is it just a coincidence that a country with a mistress culture is also a country where the people are so mistrusted?
Shining_brow:
JFK.
The many popes throughout history.
The many kings and queens and emperors.
(versus, arranged/enforced marriages, marrying within caste/station/rank/religion)
gouxiong:
If the female teacher would be able to achieve excellent results with the children she teaches so what's the trouble with her private life issues?
It's none of the school business.
And generally in EU even illegal - as long as she does not break the law (and in many EU countries even being the prostitute does not break the law) so the school would have no right to terminate the employment of excellent teacher just with the argument she sleeps with many married men.
The same goes for the male teacher with excellent result but having extramarital affairs.
It is however your choice to let your children rather being taught by much less skilled teacher who, in your eyes, does not have this 'problem'.
thelatinodancer:
gouxiong: You dont make sense.Your examples dont make sense either.Are you a joke? Why did you come to this world?
gouxiong:
thelatinodancer,
Let me guess - did your parents opted for letting you study at the place with not that good teachers but with 'high moral standards' over the place with highly professional, skilled and talented ones (but that place without guarantee that they would cheat on their partners)?
I think any parent who bothers to study if for instance math teacher of his/her child is faithful husband/wife and upon finding that it does not have to be the case is willing to compromise on teacher quality in exchange for 'high morality' should think twice.
But I have absolutely no trouble with your choice to compromise on education quality - apparently a lot of people do that.
Shining_brow:
There's been a few instances that I recall, of a female (one a teacher, the other a policewoman) who did things that 'brought the service into disrepute" (ie, photoshoot or actual prostitution). They were suspended/fired.
Interestingly enough, at least in one of those cases, the decision had to be overturned, because, not surprisingly, it didn't actually impact on their work! Prior to the exposure of the particular activity, they were considered to be very good at their job, with no problems, and well liked by their colleagues (and pupils and parents).
But oh my gods, did that mean they were really bad at their job because of what they did???
No. quite simply, the extremist moral idea of 'if you bad at one thing, you must be bad at everything" just doesn't work. It is, in fact, irrational and illogical to consider such a concept to be justified.
so much written..so i will add my thoughts..........if a mistress is involved, then she is having sex not only with the guy who has money for her but someone else, a boyfriend, boys or just friends or more..........soooooo like a prostitute, she's having multiple sex partners which raises the issue of STD's and taking it home to family. There is so much sex for sell in china, every hotel I stay in throughout china, get those little cards under the door. I also see it in many places in the cities (hard to miss).
I've seen the expensive cars in poor areas, for quick visits, and univ. girls dolled up and picked up at the gate. and thats not a rich boyfriend otherwise he would buy her a car or she would live with him not on campus.
I can share this: my wife was fired from her position of school principal so the school owner could promote his mistress to the job. Poetically, in the two years since, the school has steadily declined and is currently circling the drain. It was an expensive change for the boss, not to mention the court-ordered compensation for my wife.
gouxiong:
Is this the argument why having a mistress is good or bad?
So when the not so capable replacement of your wife would not be the school owner's mistress so it would be OK?
The reason why I am asking is because I find it absolutely OK.
If it's really a private organization so this company owner has full right to select the people who shall work for his company.
Of course your wife has to receive the compensation (under majority of the cases) as it is part of China legal system (and the arbitration and later court probably just because the law specifies just minimum requirements for the compensation - no clear guiding given in this respect).
But the case sounds pretty much that the employer just exercised his right to select the employee he deems the best for the position - and subsequently bears the consequences of his act.
Where is the problem - of course with exception that it's nothing pleasant for your wife and you.
wagon:
Why do I have to make an argument for or against? I was just answering the question posed, "Can you share your observations related to mistress culture in China?" In doing so, I used a personal anecdote.
I don't disagree that a business owner has a right to employ anyone he/she wants. My wife's boss did just that. But in doing so, he broke the labor law and had to compensate my wife a substantial sum.
"But the case sounds pretty much that the employer just exercised his right to select the employee he deems the best for the position..." No, this isn't true. He "selected" the employee because of an extra-marital affair. Even he doesn't think his xiao san was more qualified. He was put to the test by the mistress, and chose to break the law.
"Where's the problem..." The problem is with a system that they try to tell the people is a "meritocracy" when it really is the opposite. It's another aspect of the cronyism that hinders this country.
Honestly, I'm happy. My wife is happy and she received reward for her years of hard work. If the boss wasn't so greedy('cause let's face it, adultery is basically greed) he could have avoided the situation. My wife just didn't emigrate quickly enough for him and his mistress.
gouxiong:
But apparently the employer still thought that the person he employed was the best for the job whatever were his criteria - as the company owner he has the right to make a 18 years illiterate person the general director.
Will it help business? Most probably not.
Is it his right? For sure it is.
And I assume that your wife did not get the compensation because he broke the law by dismissing her (if he did then he was just stupid or not careful enough).
In China there is no problem to dismiss a person but you need to pay the compensation for that - it's very common process (fight s usually not about compensation but about how much the compensation should be as in this sense the law is not totally clear). But I do not want to argue about that as I do not know the details and you may be perfectly right on this.
I just want to point out that this has nothing in common with the new director being his lover.
It all sounds like a bit sad story for your family but this could happen (and is happening) anywhere in the world.
I have a completely different take on this.
Men like women who are willing to satisfy them. Mistresses will suck your JJ clean, and do anything you want them to do. Most wives won't. Mistresses will do anything you want, as often as you want. Again, most wives won't do it. This is why the mistress culture exists.
The mistress culture would fade away quickly if more women would just put out. I've heard of Chinese women going years without giving their husbands any loving. It doesn't matter if the man is good in bed or not, a mistress will awaken his passion and make him go crazy, and they'll both enjoy it.
A kept mistress and the man she's with have a mutually-beneficial relationship. The mistress wants cash, and the man wants yindao. Yeah, some guys want more than one woman, yes, but most guys just want to be taken care of.
(I've been with a frigid bitch in the past, if you can't make it out)
Why does it not surprise me, that Chinese have developed an entire classification system for different grades of illicit relationships, but their verb "xiang" can't differentiate between THINK and WANT?
This is merely the result of all productive, meaningful discussion being stifled. So, people waste their brainpower on banalities instead. They eat, sleep, work and fuck. Sometimes they eat, sleep, work and fuck with someone they're not supposed to. It's really not that special. Talk to any 'street smart playa', and he'll have a similar list of names and classifications for the girls he stares at.
Objectification is not something I want to encourage, so I avoid talking with such people. Unfortunately, the greedy uneducated starving farmer mentality is everywhere in China. To avoid it, you need to avoid everybody.
gouxiong:
I find interesting that on another thread you describe your disparity at fish seller no so kind behavior and your inability to communicate with him/her in Chinese (therefore using your wife on the phone and subsequent message).
However now you use the argument based on the language which you apparently do not speak to support your extreme generalization that all Chinese are uneducated, rude and lacking manners.
You must be really a cool guy!
coineineagh:
hello mr. troll. thank you for deliberately drawing a wrong conclusion about something i said on another thread to validate the imaginary hypocrisy you believe i display. the problem with the fishmonger was that he wanted to leave for lunch, so he refused to listen. but replying to you is a waste of energy.
xinyuren:
not troll, but wumao. But then again, you could argue that a wumao is a paid troll.
gouxiong:
coineineagh, I have to admit that you are most probably right. I almost certainly really drew a wrong conclusion - you clearly are not a cool guy! On top of that I hope you are not English teacher because if you would be good English teacher you should know that for English polysemy is very common. Using it then in support of your absolutely stupid generalization, which taken wordly would mean that your life partner is also one of those bad bad bad people is then really aspiring for a special award! Apparently you are either not able or willing to accept that. It's fine with me.
gouxiong:
xinyuren, you may probably not aware of this but your approach was an official attitude of all communist parties in previos USSR block: "Who does not agree with us and does not support us is then our enemy" As you however should know, such approach did not bring them success ...
