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Q: Is the China dream for it to be America?
I think we've all heard of this China dream thing once or twice and to me it just sounds like an ideological reconstruct of the American Dream in the face of it. That's a political thing though and most of my attention just falls on people and society. I've noticed something peculiar - it seems that chinese people are hooked on all that is America - I'm thinking movies especially ( superman and captain America) driving huge cars any kind of TV show imaginable... All consumer products,and likely a lot of other things. There are giant captain America posters hung up in the gym and trainers wearing superman spandex. What gives? Obviously they've abstracted a lot of the material components and not much of the psychological/ mental/ spiritual ones. But yeah, discuss.
1. The Chinese Dream means Chinese people giving up personal desires in favour of nationalism so that Xi can realise his dream of national and global domination. The idea of China being #1 is more attractive to Chinese people than China actually being a good society to live in. Due to the Chinese inferiority complex / victim mentality, the prospect of punishing and humiliating other countries outweighs more difficult-sounding propositions like social progress.
While the American Dream focused on individual ambition, effort and success, the Chinese Dream is about taking away individual ambition in favour of the State. Like most things invented by the Communist Party, “The Chinese Dream” is an ironic misrepresentation of someone else’s idea, which retains the inspiring sound, while offering nothing.
2. Regarding what Chinese people want: They want what Americans have, while being utterly unwilling to comprehend why Americans have those things. Chinese people grow up with the belief that they (an exclusive, ethno-centric group) are fundamentally right about everything.
Understanding why Western democratic societies are better places to live would require analysis (of policy and ideology) and introspection (regarding their own ideas and behaviour). Chinese people, unfortunately, actively resist perceiving connections between phenomena. As a result, Chinese people can move to superior civilisations and despoil them with their filthy behaviour, without even the slightest glimmer of self-awareness.
Chinese people don’t care why other societies are better. There is no why. They just want the good things, without going to the effort of achieving them.
VoiceG:
Other societies better in some ways .We do think about why they better , like democracy .But American society has its own problem,racist .Medical system . Every country want the good . That why England invaded American Indian . We are trying to be better .
wSchuyler88:
@voice G Ah come on, one fact of history, if you have ever studied it, is that pretty much every country (or primitive society or people even) that has ever existed on the planet has conducted warfare in some way. I think the only example, according to anthropological evidence, were some kind of maori tribes or something like that. The Indians you mention were not some single unified group - they had been fighting each other for centuries. Do you think they were unfamiliar with the practice of war? Furthermore the majority of indians died from diseases, not guns. But that's beside the point. War has been the only law of the land ever since humanity came into existence. Read Thucidides' History on the Peloponesian War and you'll see that. Your example from the 17th and 18th Centuries makes no sense in the modern context - today modern civilized governments do everything they can to avoid war - because the relationships between nations have become a lot more cooperative. Comparing a country 300 years ago with the year 2015 is bollocks
For example, when people critisize Confucius, they aren't saying that he was useless for China... they are saying it in a certain context- IE, he was useless for China in the modern era. You gotta keep your historical dates consistent, otherwise you can't make a scientific comparison, duuuhRiriRiri:
As usual with Samsara, everything to be said has been said.
Just one point of detail I'd like to remind for the record: it's a tradition for Chinese presidents to make up a slogan of their own to hammer to the masses. Hu Jintao's was "the harmonious society", Xi's is "the Chinese dream".
On my opinion about this slogan, I think it is a perfect depiction of China: a sad, uninspired and sterile parody of a successful American concept, emptied of any meaning while looking ridiculous to the outside world, but satisfying enough to an ignorant populace who'll never know any of the above.
RiriRiri:
Dear wumaos:
Whenever you will finally get out of your bipolar little world and understand that criticizing one side doesn't necessarily mean supporting the other side, that 300+ years old historical events aren't relevant in 2015, you might start to become more efficient at what you do.
VoiceG:
@RiRi . You have nothing else to do but bitching about China . You don't like the country , no one wants you be here . I don't know why this society is so bad and you still here ...
Samsara:
@VoiceG
"Other societies are better in some ways."
You are right. China has sticky rice and cheap DVD piracy, which are significant advantages.
But do they outweigh the West's public services, rule of law, independent media, free speech, gender equality, human rights, animal welfare, public sanitation, civic responsibility, clean environment, safe food, education system, independent judiciary, and democratically elected governments?
No. The fact that societies have "differences" does not make them equal.
RiriRiri:
Funny you should say that, I have been offered just recently a considerable raise NOT to leave, which was my initial plan.
Seems "the country" desperately wants me to stay. How about you? People still call you wumao but enlighten us, have you been adjusted to inflation since the olympics?
thefidu881:
LMFAO...look! who is giving free lectures on freedom of speech, human rights and democracy? Pretty good when piled up on the paper but when it comes to implementations, you sire snatch all(fully or partially) these rights from the people different to your ethenic, religious, cultural and thinking club. Pretty beautiful utopia you must be living in Samsara. I don't agree with the arguments of Voice but am surprised at your lecture, made my day indeed.
icnif77:
How are other societies independent? They don't copy DVDs, that's true (laughable
). How can you say such a thing? Is it because you're an 'merican?
'Die Grotte Krokodil Laws' (1980 S. Africa) still in action in USA, and sheeple replies: 'yes, buTT...I'm an 'merican. I must protect my country.'
Highland Park on rocks, and Tom Waits, Live in Sweden:
'...and it's such a sad old feeling, the hills are soft and green,....memories I'm stealing, but you're innocent when you dream.....'
xinyuren:
Samsara's "lecture" was pretty much spot on. Although the American Dream has largely disintegrated, the ideals of the dream are what made it possible. The Chinese have no idea about the underlying principles that make up the dream. When they look across the Pacific at those streets of gold, they see it as just another iPhone they can buy at the Apple Store. Under their current cultural circumstances, it's almost impossible for them to understand. Besides, the Chinese dream is nothing more than what Uncle Xi tells them it is. It's not a real concept, but rather a political mandate. It wasn't born from an internal longing of the people, but thru careful calculation by the government. When will they learn that you can't dictate a person's dreams?
thefidu881:
WOW...Just read another regressive view point that 'comparing a country existed 300 years ago with 2015 is bollocks.' You are another prime example of 'contradiction syndrome' victim. Was Iraq invaded in 1811 for having nothing but oil? You wanted to implant democracy over there? Fair enough, what are your views on the Egyptian turmoil where after 41 years the Egyptians chose a democratically elected president(lets say a hardcore Islamist through democracy) who was shortly overturned by a dictator with a tap on the back from White House in the shape of relaxing embargo on weapons for Egypt?
That is what American Dream is to install puppet governments around the world to milk the resources in the name of democracy and freedom? Forget about Libya, and African continent. That is what I found lately in the character of Samsara though I was a keen follower of his/her refine language and CRITICAL THINKING.
icnif77:
@xin: 'and USA masses were/are all 'drowned' in democracy?'
It's the worst masses manipulation in US, than it will ever be in China.
USA masses live in (manipulated) 'democracy', and Chinese know, who's 'our leader'.
You should look at USA without 'I belong' factor.
I do, because I lived there, and kept my original passport. If I'm honest, I don't give a 'flying fuk' 'where are you (am) from? Q'.
'I can be from anywhere I want, if I'm on Earth to do good'.
USA market traders all strive toward only one goal: 'buy low, and sell high'. Doesn't matter, what passport I hold. No much philosophy, or proper English writing involved.
I don't hate, I (mostly) like everybody, and I'm the happiest, when I'm far away from my passport's country. Where I was assimilated. No 'I belong' drive in my head.
thefidu881:
Xin,
Yeah, I said that what Samsara has compiled in his/her answer is pretty good when piled up over a piece of paper but I found the contradiction in his/her ' speech and actions' lately. So my reply was just a sarcastic remark to a person who go on advocating FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY and HUMAN RIGHTS but cannot get out of the utopia full of racism and geographical superiority complex. Reference: (My answer to; Will China allow gay marriages?
xinyuren:
@icnf77 - Why do your posts always turn to centering around the USA? Do you have some sort of vendetta against the United states? Why are you so butthurt? This thread is only about the USA as it pertains to the CHinese Dream. You really have a serious obsession. I have a feeling you didn't leave the United States willingly. I think they kicked you out. That would explain a lot about you. That or you are wacko.
VoiceG:
I want to tell all of you . You are comparing china with other countries ,and find Us is brilliant country . i am so sick of this . China sucks . So what ? You are still here .you feel other places so good then go for it . You sit here and bitch but nothing change . Why you guys waste your time ? really don't understand. I agree that Chinese government sucks in many ways . But Us government is more disgusting .To my hero --- Edward snowden .
thefidu881:
"My ivory! Horror! Horror!
Mistah! Kurtz is dead" from Christopher Marlow's ' Heart Of Darkness'.
Nothing has changed in the American attitude towards greed and hunt for resources throughout the course of history, they did in the past, are and will exploit whoever they can to get hold of the resources but yes! the FREE MEDIA will either call the opponents 'extremists, uncivilized or whatever fit in best to lure American nation. I do not wish China follows THAT dream if at all it has to follow the American Dream.
icnif77:
I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. As MDs told me, what I must do to switch to insulin treatment, I refused. Instead needed injections, I opted for daily exercises. However, after some 5y staying of the insulin, MD after checked my blood glucose put me on intensive-lowering glucose treatment. OK.
However, MDs never saw such a person before, and they didn't have any experiences in treating 'high glucose addiction'.
After few weeks of treatment, my lower extremities (hips down) started to shake always when I was in relaxing, not walking position. I didn't sleep for two months straight.
Team of State MDs got me into the research facility for observations, as I was frequent traveler, and they suspected I might got some unknown disease.
My sis (MD) commented: 'he's addicted to high glucose, so his high glucose should return to normal gradually.'
However, State MD team made conclusion, I'm probably mentally ill (hypochondriac), and I volunteered to Mental Hospital. I said to MD's team: 'I just want to sleep. This must stop. I'll do anything you want!'
In Mental Hospital they just observed my mental state, and disregard my daily glucose level.
I had need for chocolate, and I got myself 200g chocolate bar in shop at the entrance.
After I ate chocolate bar, glucose level in my blood increased and shaking suddenly stopped. I felt asleep after 2 months for the first time.
My sis was right. I was addicted to high glucose, and my muscles suffered from normal/too low glucose level, so I shook.
Was released from Mental Hospital with stamp "Sane! No mental disturbances observed!" There are not too many people in the world with such a 'recognition'.
Think about 'cat at fall', when you make variables about my postings/replies/me.
'Cat at fall always lands on its feet'. Never head-on, what is human's norm.
I left USA in 2007, after disappointments, which started to build-up after 2001 NY events. Was on the ship to Nantucket (from Boston), just freshly assembled my 'wheels of fire', which pic you could see on the other thread.
xinyuren:
ah. that explains a lot. Your bad experience has made you bitter. Your bitterness against the USA is making you "crazy". Just remember this is a China board. Many of us aren't fond of America and it sure ain't perfect there, but we are discussing CHINA and Chinese society. It sure is distracting when you always throw in non-related USA business.
icnif77:
I lived there for fukin-ever, and I miss it. E Coast beaches especially. I'm not bitter! I'm still there through the Internet.
How it's not related? 'USA wants to succumb China', not the other way around.
US posters in China are slugging China, because your home is any stinky better.?
See your family in USA, before you bad mouthing anything in China.
I'll always oppose to double standards.
I thought, you'll understand from the last reply with whom you're dealing here. You're not tall enough, despite your immaculate English.
xinyuren:
To be honest, icnif, most of the things you write, i don't understand. Including your last reply. Maybe I'm not crazy enough either.
wSchuyler88:
@fidooo. True enough about the iraq example but the one thing i noticed is that opponents of the argument always make iraq their main example, when iraq at the very most is an anomole or an exception to the american experience. The people, who preside over their elected leaders , were as enraged as hornets when the world trade centers came crashing down in a country that hadnt been attacked on its own soil since pearl harbor. Thats a lot to stomach so try to take that in. An emotional people who often are very against war were taken advantage of and lied to by a president who launched a war for fake reasons which were really for geo strategy and demands of interest groups. It was a brief backward step into old messy might makes right politics but after that we have continued on with the major trend thats been taking place for over half a century- one of order building- that emphasizes the building of stable institutions With rules of conduct regularizing relations - not one where wars take place as the norm. An iraq war is not a common occurrence within american history so it shouldnt form the base if an argument.
thefidu881:
Are you kidding me dude? I mean how could you say Iraq war is an exception where as it destabilized the whole of the middle east? Do you know how many are living as refugees due to Syrian civil war alone? I do not understand how could you justify that the incident of 9/11 gave freedom to the American establishment to go on bombing Iraq where as there was not a slight involvement of Iraq in the making of 9/11 plot? Are you trying to hide the greed part by emotional blackmailing? I am not going into the depth of how the US established Al Qaeda to pave way for a unipolar world, how CIhey killed the first Pakistani PM in 1948 for not pressurizing Iran to give bids to American oil companies and how it resulted the turmoil in the Pakistani politics later on.
It is an argument, a solid argument and by presenting it does not mean I hate the US or American people rather I wish the American nation accept the dreadful crimes their policy makers have committed against others and do more open heartedly to bring it back instead of backing up the fallacies. I appreciate your fair approach though it is disrespectful to the people suffering in the middle east due to American invasion of Iraq to call it an exception.
xinyuren:
@fidu - It is generally acknowledged by Americans that the Iraq wars were a world class f*ck up. You will not find many Americans who, in hindsight, support their leader's positions in those campaigns. Bush's administration has been duly vilified for it's participation in that mess. On the other hand, these same people will justify what happened in Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan because of the end result. They found Bin Laden, the man who admittedly masterminded the 9/11 attack, in Pakistan.
thefidu881:
Xin, my stance on terrorism is pretty clear and I mentioned the Pakistani appraoch towards terrorism somewhere else recently. As a Pakistani, we are pretty much fuc*ed up by this whole shit between the then USSR and the US. We have lost more citizens alone due to this stupid involvement in the wholecrap since 1970s. If Osama was found in Pakistan it was natural for a country like Pakistan it was impossible to deny him either since Taliban could have taken the rest of the shit out of our arses by now. Pakistan joined the US in war on terror post 9/11 despite the society was divided until recently the ragheads killed more than a hundred kids in a school. It was until December last year that Pakistani nation has stood united against terrorism and I was reading the US state department briefing that Pakistan has increasingly curbed the terrorism and is on the top of the list of countries with decreasing terrorism activities. If Osama was hidden by Pakistani government or military, it was wrong, plain wrong but then again Pakistan isn't the US with far off the reach of ragheads rather at the border next to wolves. You cannot expect Pakistan go blunt against the people who were trained by them earlier.
xinyuren:
@fidu - I'm not sure what your comment was about in relation to mine. My reply has nothing to do with Pakistani policy. It was a response to your comment, "..I wish the American people accept the dreadful crimes...". Americans, on the whole, have accepted this as a dreadful mistep.
They don't want to be Americans, they only want the same lifestyle.
wSchuyler88:
Do you think it's possible to get that lifestyle without adopting the type of thinking that produced it?
Sinobear:
Without the Judeo-Christian morales and values, no. That should, in theory, mean that everyone is out for themselves and should provide the basis for equality, but alas, it hasn't worked any better than the west and it's 1% elite.
The Chinese Dream is a lie, just like China is a democracy. Yes it is. Their constitution says so.
I agree with Sinobear.
Also, America's time is almost over since 99% of our politicians are overcome with corruption. We're going to run into the same National Security issues as China had in the past, very soon.
We've become a nanny "National Security LoLz" state, and Chinese immigrants are kind of late to the liberty game since ours is almost gone. It's like a failing company, you bring in people who want to work, but they can't stop the company from failing in the end, and you ended up wasting all that time on said company. Might even lose everything because of it.
Yeah, a lot of them want to be Americans. I just hope they can be without failing, and that I'm wrong.
/rant-over
wSchuyler88:
I don't wanna stray off topic much but corrupt politicians succeeding in America is largely the fault of an either ignorant or uncaring voter populace. The system revolves around choosing candidates that people want and the people haven't really set the bar too high for even congressional level types.
The American dream with Chinese Characteristics.
I think western nations should just do land swaps with China. You want America? Fine... have Utah. We will take Guanxi. Then give it 10 years and see if your average Chinese Joe wants to move to Utah or Guanxi.
China has it all really. It has the land, it has the resources, but it does not have a system to fix the problems. The Chinese who want to leave are just acting in a typical Yangist way. Why work to change things when I can just piggyback a nation that has tried to solve problems.
China needs a paradigm shift. That can only come from the top. Along the lines of "lets work together".
Unfortunately, of course, Mao destroyed that with his 100 flowers campaign. What China now needs is a billion flowers campaign. If they done that well, people would not want to leave here for the streets paved in gold.
Hulk:
Yes, PLEASE, PLEASE take Utah.
Overly-psychotic, anti-freedom and liberty mormons, and the NSA spying data center. Take it, and do something productive with it.
icnif77:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-18/chinas-largest-conglomerate-buys-building-houses-jpmorgans-gold-vault
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-26/why-chinese-developers-default-means-trouble-new-york-real-estate
Chinese investors spent $3 billion on New York properties in 2014. Many in New York continue to associate Chinese real estate companies with limitless funds and a never-ending ability to invest... But what if they are wrong?
Xinyuan Real Estate NYC investments: Oosten at 429 Kent Avenue
Among Chinese developers active in New York, Xinyuan Real Estate appears to be most vulnerable to a market shock at home. Fitch rates the firm’s bonds as highly speculative (B+) and last August revised its outlook down to negative. “Xinyuan spent substantial amounts on land acquisitions in 1H14 to expand its business scale in 2014, but sales failed to keep pace amid negative sentiment in the sector and its selling,” the agency wrote, explaining the revision. The firm’s debt grew by more than a third in the first half of 2014 alone while earnings fell from 91 cents to 20 cents per share, according to Seeking Alpha.
China Vanke NYC investments: 610 Lexington Avenue (also known as One Hundred East Fifty Third Street)
Greenland Group NYC investments: Pacific Park
Soho China NYC investments: The GM Building at 767 Fifth Avenue, Park Avenue Plaza at 55 East 52nd Street
Nothing on Chinese real estate shopping in Utah.
The "American Dream" also included the very important "immigrant masses" coming from many other places in the world. Mostly European, but also other places like Latin America, Africa, and China. Most of these immigrants came with little or practically nothing, and were able to at least "make it". Some, like my grandfather, did quite well...a man coming here from Italy without much and no formal education, and dying a multi-millionaire with marginal liabilities. China is different insomuch that its economy has seen phenomenal growth these past few decades. Sure, many have done well...but A whole bunch are still living at substance levels (their per cap income proves this at $8,000 to $13,000 depending on which one you use). So, its obvious the system here isnt working in the majorities best interest.
xinyuren:
show me which system is working in the majority's best interest. Every system in the world is being gamed by the upper 1%. This is the nature of greedy people.
silverbutton1:
xinyuren:
"show me which system is working in the majority's best interest. Every system in the world is being gamed by the upper 1%. This is the nature of greedy people."
There is none, and probably never will be. The upper crust ALWAYS runs the show, so to speak. Is it the nature of greedy people, as you say or is it the inherently coupling of human nature and hierarchy?
The "American Dream" also included the very important "immigrant masses" coming from many other places in the world. Mostly European, but also other places like Latin America, Africa, and China. Most of these immigrants came with little or practically nothing, and were able to at least "make it". Some, like my grandfather, did quite well...a man coming here from Italy without much and no formal education, and dying a multi-millionaire with marginal liabilities. China is different insomuch that its economy has seen phenomenal growth these past few decades. Sure, many have done well...but A whole bunch are still living at substance levels (their per cap income proves this at $8,000 to $13,000 depending on which one you use). So, its obvious the system here isnt working in the majorities best interest.
1. The Chinese Dream means Chinese people giving up personal desires in favour of nationalism so that Xi can realise his dream of national and global domination. The idea of China being #1 is more attractive to Chinese people than China actually being a good society to live in. Due to the Chinese inferiority complex / victim mentality, the prospect of punishing and humiliating other countries outweighs more difficult-sounding propositions like social progress.
While the American Dream focused on individual ambition, effort and success, the Chinese Dream is about taking away individual ambition in favour of the State. Like most things invented by the Communist Party, “The Chinese Dream” is an ironic misrepresentation of someone else’s idea, which retains the inspiring sound, while offering nothing.
2. Regarding what Chinese people want: They want what Americans have, while being utterly unwilling to comprehend why Americans have those things. Chinese people grow up with the belief that they (an exclusive, ethno-centric group) are fundamentally right about everything.
Understanding why Western democratic societies are better places to live would require analysis (of policy and ideology) and introspection (regarding their own ideas and behaviour). Chinese people, unfortunately, actively resist perceiving connections between phenomena. As a result, Chinese people can move to superior civilisations and despoil them with their filthy behaviour, without even the slightest glimmer of self-awareness.
Chinese people don’t care why other societies are better. There is no why. They just want the good things, without going to the effort of achieving them.
VoiceG:
Other societies better in some ways .We do think about why they better , like democracy .But American society has its own problem,racist .Medical system . Every country want the good . That why England invaded American Indian . We are trying to be better .
wSchuyler88:
@voice G Ah come on, one fact of history, if you have ever studied it, is that pretty much every country (or primitive society or people even) that has ever existed on the planet has conducted warfare in some way. I think the only example, according to anthropological evidence, were some kind of maori tribes or something like that. The Indians you mention were not some single unified group - they had been fighting each other for centuries. Do you think they were unfamiliar with the practice of war? Furthermore the majority of indians died from diseases, not guns. But that's beside the point. War has been the only law of the land ever since humanity came into existence. Read Thucidides' History on the Peloponesian War and you'll see that. Your example from the 17th and 18th Centuries makes no sense in the modern context - today modern civilized governments do everything they can to avoid war - because the relationships between nations have become a lot more cooperative. Comparing a country 300 years ago with the year 2015 is bollocks
For example, when people critisize Confucius, they aren't saying that he was useless for China... they are saying it in a certain context- IE, he was useless for China in the modern era. You gotta keep your historical dates consistent, otherwise you can't make a scientific comparison, duuuhRiriRiri:
As usual with Samsara, everything to be said has been said.
Just one point of detail I'd like to remind for the record: it's a tradition for Chinese presidents to make up a slogan of their own to hammer to the masses. Hu Jintao's was "the harmonious society", Xi's is "the Chinese dream".
On my opinion about this slogan, I think it is a perfect depiction of China: a sad, uninspired and sterile parody of a successful American concept, emptied of any meaning while looking ridiculous to the outside world, but satisfying enough to an ignorant populace who'll never know any of the above.
RiriRiri:
Dear wumaos:
Whenever you will finally get out of your bipolar little world and understand that criticizing one side doesn't necessarily mean supporting the other side, that 300+ years old historical events aren't relevant in 2015, you might start to become more efficient at what you do.
VoiceG:
@RiRi . You have nothing else to do but bitching about China . You don't like the country , no one wants you be here . I don't know why this society is so bad and you still here ...
Samsara:
@VoiceG
"Other societies are better in some ways."
You are right. China has sticky rice and cheap DVD piracy, which are significant advantages.
But do they outweigh the West's public services, rule of law, independent media, free speech, gender equality, human rights, animal welfare, public sanitation, civic responsibility, clean environment, safe food, education system, independent judiciary, and democratically elected governments?
No. The fact that societies have "differences" does not make them equal.
RiriRiri:
Funny you should say that, I have been offered just recently a considerable raise NOT to leave, which was my initial plan.
Seems "the country" desperately wants me to stay. How about you? People still call you wumao but enlighten us, have you been adjusted to inflation since the olympics?
thefidu881:
LMFAO...look! who is giving free lectures on freedom of speech, human rights and democracy? Pretty good when piled up on the paper but when it comes to implementations, you sire snatch all(fully or partially) these rights from the people different to your ethenic, religious, cultural and thinking club. Pretty beautiful utopia you must be living in Samsara. I don't agree with the arguments of Voice but am surprised at your lecture, made my day indeed.
icnif77:
How are other societies independent? They don't copy DVDs, that's true (laughable). How can you say such a thing? Is it because you're an 'merican?
'Die Grotte Krokodil Laws' (1980 S. Africa) still in action in USA, and sheeple replies: 'yes, buTT...I'm an 'merican. I must protect my country.'
Highland Park on rocks, and Tom Waits, Live in Sweden:
'...and it's such a sad old feeling, the hills are soft and green,....memories I'm stealing, but you're innocent when you dream.....'
xinyuren:
Samsara's "lecture" was pretty much spot on. Although the American Dream has largely disintegrated, the ideals of the dream are what made it possible. The Chinese have no idea about the underlying principles that make up the dream. When they look across the Pacific at those streets of gold, they see it as just another iPhone they can buy at the Apple Store. Under their current cultural circumstances, it's almost impossible for them to understand. Besides, the Chinese dream is nothing more than what Uncle Xi tells them it is. It's not a real concept, but rather a political mandate. It wasn't born from an internal longing of the people, but thru careful calculation by the government. When will they learn that you can't dictate a person's dreams?
thefidu881:
WOW...Just read another regressive view point that 'comparing a country existed 300 years ago with 2015 is bollocks.' You are another prime example of 'contradiction syndrome' victim. Was Iraq invaded in 1811 for having nothing but oil? You wanted to implant democracy over there? Fair enough, what are your views on the Egyptian turmoil where after 41 years the Egyptians chose a democratically elected president(lets say a hardcore Islamist through democracy) who was shortly overturned by a dictator with a tap on the back from White House in the shape of relaxing embargo on weapons for Egypt?
That is what American Dream is to install puppet governments around the world to milk the resources in the name of democracy and freedom? Forget about Libya, and African continent. That is what I found lately in the character of Samsara though I was a keen follower of his/her refine language and CRITICAL THINKING.
icnif77:
@xin: 'and USA masses were/are all 'drowned' in democracy?'
It's the worst masses manipulation in US, than it will ever be in China.
USA masses live in (manipulated) 'democracy', and Chinese know, who's 'our leader'.
You should look at USA without 'I belong' factor.
I do, because I lived there, and kept my original passport. If I'm honest, I don't give a 'flying fuk' 'where are you (am) from? Q'.
'I can be from anywhere I want, if I'm on Earth to do good'.
USA market traders all strive toward only one goal: 'buy low, and sell high'. Doesn't matter, what passport I hold. No much philosophy, or proper English writing involved.
I don't hate, I (mostly) like everybody, and I'm the happiest, when I'm far away from my passport's country. Where I was assimilated. No 'I belong' drive in my head.
thefidu881:
Xin,
Yeah, I said that what Samsara has compiled in his/her answer is pretty good when piled up over a piece of paper but I found the contradiction in his/her ' speech and actions' lately. So my reply was just a sarcastic remark to a person who go on advocating FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY and HUMAN RIGHTS but cannot get out of the utopia full of racism and geographical superiority complex. Reference: (My answer to; Will China allow gay marriages?
xinyuren:
@icnf77 - Why do your posts always turn to centering around the USA? Do you have some sort of vendetta against the United states? Why are you so butthurt? This thread is only about the USA as it pertains to the CHinese Dream. You really have a serious obsession. I have a feeling you didn't leave the United States willingly. I think they kicked you out. That would explain a lot about you. That or you are wacko.
VoiceG:
I want to tell all of you . You are comparing china with other countries ,and find Us is brilliant country . i am so sick of this . China sucks . So what ? You are still here .you feel other places so good then go for it . You sit here and bitch but nothing change . Why you guys waste your time ? really don't understand. I agree that Chinese government sucks in many ways . But Us government is more disgusting .To my hero --- Edward snowden .
thefidu881:
"My ivory! Horror! Horror!
Mistah! Kurtz is dead" from Christopher Marlow's ' Heart Of Darkness'.
Nothing has changed in the American attitude towards greed and hunt for resources throughout the course of history, they did in the past, are and will exploit whoever they can to get hold of the resources but yes! the FREE MEDIA will either call the opponents 'extremists, uncivilized or whatever fit in best to lure American nation. I do not wish China follows THAT dream if at all it has to follow the American Dream.
icnif77:
I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. As MDs told me, what I must do to switch to insulin treatment, I refused. Instead needed injections, I opted for daily exercises. However, after some 5y staying of the insulin, MD after checked my blood glucose put me on intensive-lowering glucose treatment. OK.
However, MDs never saw such a person before, and they didn't have any experiences in treating 'high glucose addiction'.
After few weeks of treatment, my lower extremities (hips down) started to shake always when I was in relaxing, not walking position. I didn't sleep for two months straight.
Team of State MDs got me into the research facility for observations, as I was frequent traveler, and they suspected I might got some unknown disease.
My sis (MD) commented: 'he's addicted to high glucose, so his high glucose should return to normal gradually.'
However, State MD team made conclusion, I'm probably mentally ill (hypochondriac), and I volunteered to Mental Hospital. I said to MD's team: 'I just want to sleep. This must stop. I'll do anything you want!'
In Mental Hospital they just observed my mental state, and disregard my daily glucose level.
I had need for chocolate, and I got myself 200g chocolate bar in shop at the entrance.
After I ate chocolate bar, glucose level in my blood increased and shaking suddenly stopped. I felt asleep after 2 months for the first time.
My sis was right. I was addicted to high glucose, and my muscles suffered from normal/too low glucose level, so I shook.
Was released from Mental Hospital with stamp "Sane! No mental disturbances observed!" There are not too many people in the world with such a 'recognition'.
Think about 'cat at fall', when you make variables about my postings/replies/me.
'Cat at fall always lands on its feet'. Never head-on, what is human's norm.
I left USA in 2007, after disappointments, which started to build-up after 2001 NY events. Was on the ship to Nantucket (from Boston), just freshly assembled my 'wheels of fire', which pic you could see on the other thread.
xinyuren:
ah. that explains a lot. Your bad experience has made you bitter. Your bitterness against the USA is making you "crazy". Just remember this is a China board. Many of us aren't fond of America and it sure ain't perfect there, but we are discussing CHINA and Chinese society. It sure is distracting when you always throw in non-related USA business.
icnif77:
I lived there for fukin-ever, and I miss it. E Coast beaches especially. I'm not bitter! I'm still there through the Internet.
How it's not related? 'USA wants to succumb China', not the other way around.
US posters in China are slugging China, because your home is any stinky better.?
See your family in USA, before you bad mouthing anything in China.
I'll always oppose to double standards.
I thought, you'll understand from the last reply with whom you're dealing here. You're not tall enough, despite your immaculate English.
xinyuren:
To be honest, icnif, most of the things you write, i don't understand. Including your last reply. Maybe I'm not crazy enough either.
wSchuyler88:
@fidooo. True enough about the iraq example but the one thing i noticed is that opponents of the argument always make iraq their main example, when iraq at the very most is an anomole or an exception to the american experience. The people, who preside over their elected leaders , were as enraged as hornets when the world trade centers came crashing down in a country that hadnt been attacked on its own soil since pearl harbor. Thats a lot to stomach so try to take that in. An emotional people who often are very against war were taken advantage of and lied to by a president who launched a war for fake reasons which were really for geo strategy and demands of interest groups. It was a brief backward step into old messy might makes right politics but after that we have continued on with the major trend thats been taking place for over half a century- one of order building- that emphasizes the building of stable institutions With rules of conduct regularizing relations - not one where wars take place as the norm. An iraq war is not a common occurrence within american history so it shouldnt form the base if an argument.
thefidu881:
Are you kidding me dude? I mean how could you say Iraq war is an exception where as it destabilized the whole of the middle east? Do you know how many are living as refugees due to Syrian civil war alone? I do not understand how could you justify that the incident of 9/11 gave freedom to the American establishment to go on bombing Iraq where as there was not a slight involvement of Iraq in the making of 9/11 plot? Are you trying to hide the greed part by emotional blackmailing? I am not going into the depth of how the US established Al Qaeda to pave way for a unipolar world, how CIhey killed the first Pakistani PM in 1948 for not pressurizing Iran to give bids to American oil companies and how it resulted the turmoil in the Pakistani politics later on.
It is an argument, a solid argument and by presenting it does not mean I hate the US or American people rather I wish the American nation accept the dreadful crimes their policy makers have committed against others and do more open heartedly to bring it back instead of backing up the fallacies. I appreciate your fair approach though it is disrespectful to the people suffering in the middle east due to American invasion of Iraq to call it an exception.
xinyuren:
@fidu - It is generally acknowledged by Americans that the Iraq wars were a world class f*ck up. You will not find many Americans who, in hindsight, support their leader's positions in those campaigns. Bush's administration has been duly vilified for it's participation in that mess. On the other hand, these same people will justify what happened in Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan because of the end result. They found Bin Laden, the man who admittedly masterminded the 9/11 attack, in Pakistan.
thefidu881:
Xin, my stance on terrorism is pretty clear and I mentioned the Pakistani appraoch towards terrorism somewhere else recently. As a Pakistani, we are pretty much fuc*ed up by this whole shit between the then USSR and the US. We have lost more citizens alone due to this stupid involvement in the wholecrap since 1970s. If Osama was found in Pakistan it was natural for a country like Pakistan it was impossible to deny him either since Taliban could have taken the rest of the shit out of our arses by now. Pakistan joined the US in war on terror post 9/11 despite the society was divided until recently the ragheads killed more than a hundred kids in a school. It was until December last year that Pakistani nation has stood united against terrorism and I was reading the US state department briefing that Pakistan has increasingly curbed the terrorism and is on the top of the list of countries with decreasing terrorism activities. If Osama was hidden by Pakistani government or military, it was wrong, plain wrong but then again Pakistan isn't the US with far off the reach of ragheads rather at the border next to wolves. You cannot expect Pakistan go blunt against the people who were trained by them earlier.
xinyuren:
@fidu - I'm not sure what your comment was about in relation to mine. My reply has nothing to do with Pakistani policy. It was a response to your comment, "..I wish the American people accept the dreadful crimes...". Americans, on the whole, have accepted this as a dreadful mistep.
the biggest problem for china to be america is to say yes or no and not maybe or lets negotiate and talk more about this, picking a side instead of taking advantage of both sides is going to be a real problem here.
Chinese economy is on up-swing, what means they have more money, better infrastructure, and everything else US achieved long time ago.
They don't want to be as USA, especially not Chinese Gov.
I read an article on '0Hedge' from the opposite side: 'What US (neocons) desire?'
It's the other way around by P.C. Roberts:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-20/paul-craig-roberts-washington-i...
The West is impotent to prevent Armageddon.
It is up to Russia and China, and as Washington has framed the dilemma, Armageddon can only be prevented by Russia and China accepting vassal status.
I don’t believe this is going to happen. Why would any self-respecting people submit to the corrupt West?
icnif77:
Not likely! They are allies against US/West hegemony. US doesn't have that kind of muscle against that alliance, with Iran and N. Horea on the side. IMO, of course.
US must face retreat, or else WW3. 2nd is more likely than 1st.
wSchuyler88:
Allies always have one party who calls the shots. think america in cold war europe, for example. Pretty much everything going on in germany, france, and britain was all dependent on those countries relationships with the us.
so you think Russia would subordinate itself to china, huh? I am not so sure if it is wise to think the Russians work like that - remember all the problems between these two countries.
Even the avengers had disagreements in the avengers 1, and they were all super heroes trying to save the world, lol.
xinyuren:
If it's up to Russia and China like you say, then we''re doomed. The fact is they all are impotent. Either you are being paid to spread this dribble everywhere you go, or you are just completely clueless about world economics and geopolitics. I admit, you are good entertainment, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Russia is on it's last leg and China will be soon. The West has been on its last leg for awhile now, but at least it is in a position of power. Russia and China has little power and no friends. There is nothing to prevent "Armageddon". I'm just here for the show. It will be a massacre.
icnif77:
@xin: 'I'm not spreading any drive, and I'm not paid by anybody to post on free Board.'
0Hedge is US market traders/investors website, where I'm long time member, and logon daily. No GOOG, Reuters in China, so next on my list to see daily news is 0Hedge.
The biggest problem I see, China and Russia are acting in/as defense, what is entirely US fault.
I trust more to (non-manipulated) charts than any written news/article. Status of US$ as Reserve currency is near the end, hence next big conflict is most likely 'outcome of the race'.
I've never stated, China (and Russia) are the most suitable US replacement in world dominance, but that's what is on hand.
I'm just an observer.
Sinobear:
Predictions, predictions:
http://www.businessinsider.com/stratfor-has-11-chilling-predictions-for-what-the-world-will-look-like-a-decade-from-now-2015-6?r=UK&ref=yfp
xinyuren:
Let me be clear: China or Russia can never be world powers. Not unless there is some serious screw-up or nukes are involved. China and Russia have no culture to enchant the masses. They have nothing to offer accept the personality of their leaders. We are living in the end game. The West is crumbling, the East has no foundation and there is nothing in between. China-Russia is a joke of a partnership born from desperation. The "West" is a charming old has-been who keeps a tight grip on the scepter. And everyone is smiling with optimism because they don't want to face the elephant in the room. But to anyone looking at the situation objectively, the conclusion is inevitable.
icnif77:
I agree, however on 'culture' point we could have longer discussion. Once, in US, they brought me after meal desert, and waitress said: 'I can't remember the exact name she called that thing. Some French name', but I replied: 'In EU, we call that pudding'.
How did USA enhanced the masses? J. Leno's shows can be guidance on USA masses.
If you imagine two fighters, and first one (not that strong at the moment) provoke fight with punch or slap, and 2nd one plays 'offended and hurt', and immediately reply with much harder punch.
1st one being USA. No diplomacy whatsoever, but just provoke world's conflict. Just made up some shit (in US congress) about Iraq, and invade it, just because our economy 'rebels' against all manipulation on the market. '922' is/will be USA tragic in history books.
Chinese and Putin-ski response is hand shake alliance. Chinese finished new artificial island in Spratly's. What's the difference between building ghost cities or making new island?
Reply to Neo-con's drive. Putin's pics with O-bummer are laughable. Toward USA.
xinyuren:
There is no dispute among sane individuals: American culture influences almost every part of this world. Like it or not, it's America's charm more than it's military might that has won over the West. Its media, its food, its technology, it's spirit.... these all have infiltrated world culture. This is impossible to do by force. People must willingly accept it. But in the end, all world powers have taken power by force of arms. Throughout history, this has always been true. The strongest army with the most friends always win in the end. The US won it with aggression and kept it with charm. (or is it the other way around?). If Russia or China want it, they will have to take it by the same means. But they neither have charm or the military power. China is trying to do it on face alone. Russia has.....um, Putin.
icnif77:
Is there any chance all US foodies came from elsewhere, or they were 'invented'/copied in USA last 300 years? Pumpkin pie is USA thing.
Serbians claim patent for famous US 'hamburger'. It was made by Serbians a century ago as barbecue, before 'USA culinary invention' called McD.
'Where are you from?' is always an interesting Q to USA born individual. I really mean, where did your predecessors come from? They most likely came to USA, unless they weren't Native American tribe (Siouxi, Apache, Choctaw and others).
Just since you mention long and obliged USA history, what about African Americans? Why do we add 'African' to the nation's word? Don't tell me, because 'black' is a racists word.
Such a long USA history.
xinyuren:
By food, i mean fast food chains. There are McDonald's, KFC, Dunkin Doughnuts, Pizza Hut, Starbucks and Subways everywhere in the world. This is part of American pop culture. That other stuff you mentioned have nothing to do with this topic.
icnif77:
I'd say that's 'profit driven' not culture exporting.
You don't really believe, French, Danish, Italians and other 'connoisseur' EU countries are proud of McD?
Tech advances yes, that's US 'culture exporting', but most other things were imported in US and redeveloped.
xinyuren:
Do you really need someone to explain culture to you? America's fast food culture is pervasive in the world. What has profit got to do with it? It wouldn't be profitable if it wasn't popular. Everybody knows McDonalds and they make millions because millions of people want to eat like Americans. Redeveloped tech? What are you talking about??? America is one of the tech giants of the world, drawing talent from everywhere (Produce a fair amount too) Ever heard of Silicon Valley? Yeah, a lot of "redeveloping" goes on there. Are you arguing that America's culture isn't among the most popular in the world? If so, you're fighting a losing battle. If not, what are you trying to say? A whole lot of nothing, it seems.
icnif77:
Pay attention, pls.: '..but the most other things were imported and redeveloped.'
Most other things, except tech.
Italians, French and other EU nations (where the most of the first American immigrants originated from) usually when they sit down for a meal, they don't stand-up off the table for the whole day. Doesn't matter is it earthquake or comet's approaching. In EU, the most important meal is lunch, and in US is dinner. Why? You can find some clues in Baptist religion/churches (18 century). Why McD types of food are successful in EU? Because, West/EU economy is on down-swing, and most people are poor, so they jump for 3 Eur lunch. Starbucks is popular in EU? Brew to Italian or French Starbucks espresso, and you'll get murdered on the spot. American coffee? Decaf or Regular? People in EU were drinking such a coffee during the 2nd WW, because there were no real coffee beans on the market. My point was: US is nation of immigrants, what means that most of US things (except high tech) were imported and redeveloped.
American culture is spreading around the world through Hollywood. There are no similar establishments anywhere else but in US. 'Low sell tickets' movies from USA are sold to EU and elsewhere with the title 'Based on a real life story'. I always get that notion as reply, when I listen comments about some USA movie, and I commented: 'That doesn't have anything to do (any similarities) with real life in America'. LOL
Russians apparently have proof that Armstrong's Moon walk was filmed in Hollywood.
I'm not bashing anybody. I read about it few days ago on RT or somewhere.
xinyuren:
Ok, i misread that one part. but once again, most of what you wrote is a not even related to the topic. The things I have mentioned, whether it was imported, exported, "redeveloped", reprocessed or whatever, are unmistakably American. They are recognizable and popular all over the world (Starbucks notwithstanding). They have influenced people's ideas and dreams about American life and they have contributed to America's popularity. They are part of the reason America is the number 1 tourist and immigration destination in the world and why America is the leader in world geopolitics (with the Brits) I am not America's cheerleader. I'm just stating the facts. If anyone wants to become the next Big Dog, they will have to top what America has brought to the party.
Can't be, we all have different history and events. China will become whatever it wants.
wSchuyler88:
Perhaps my friend.. but your quote on having diferent history and events seems to negate the other half of your comment... Because we are all what history makes us, no?
- Master Worthington
Cargo cult again. They look to America and Japan for their nice things and say to themselves: "If only China can learn to make quality things like that, everything in the country will be right and proper."
They look to America to see what to emulate (and often they can replicate the nice things quite cost-effectively), but once they get to the point of perfectly mimicking their idols, the expected perfection is still missing.
People on the streets are still rude and selfish. Society is still corrupt and unjust. Healthcare and education are still lacking. They have all the nice things needed to catch up, but fail to realize the main component that is missin is their own effort and self-improvement.
"What's the newest nice thing? That must be the missing magical secret super special luxury VIP key to the Chinese dream." And continually chasing that thing is easier than trying to improve.
#1 exporter of nice things in the world, but it's still not enough to improve their society. Cargo cult.
tomcatflyer:
Well put, very much in line with my own thoughts. The lack of real education here I feel lays at the bottom of this. Until people learn to respect each other, take pride in a job well done and to develop real thinking skills all the pretty baubles in the world will not change this fractured and damaged society. I still classify China as a third world country because of the people. The fact that the government has laid some gloss on top does not disguise the rot underneath.
The China Dream 中国梦, not the Chinese Dream. It is the dream of a nation, of a race.
Uncle Xi dreams of China and its civilization being commonly recognized as the legitimate center of the world. In his dream, Chinese philosophers are being taught in Western schools along with Nietzsche and Socrates, Chinese thoughts are seen as more "profound" and Chinese people as more civilized.
At the end it is just another political maneuver to justify the CCP's rule that from 1980 up to recently was based on economic growth, as the last slows down the leadership must find other ways to hold onto its power, nationalism, racial pride and xenophobia are three efficient means.
xinyuren:
This is probably the best description I've seen yet. The Chinese Dream is just more propaganda, invented by Uncle Xi. He should have called it "Xi's Dream".
wSchuyler88:
Yo, check these links -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Dream
http://english.cntv.cn/chinesedream/index.shtml
(Second one is an English page by CCTV)
There's also articles that mention the "Chinese dream" done by the Atlantic, the Economist, New York Times, and several Chinese authors / scholars.
I don't claim to be a China expert , but I do know that the Chinese language is flexible enough to be translated into different ways. It appears that the terms are interchangeable, meaning that you are therefore incorrect with your statement.
Oh yeah - Check yo' privledge at the door next time before making outrageous statements -
- (I am) Worthington Schuyler Phillips
RandomGuy:
China, Chinese, any difference? Within the Chinese psyche, all that matters is the idea of civilization 文明 regrouping everything Chinese. When the PRC claims that Taiwan is a part of China, they mean that it belongs to the Chinese civilization aka. Greater China that the CCP sees itself as the rightful heir.
Traditionally, Chinese are a collectivist people, opposed to individualistic Westerners. Although recently, thanks to consumerism, they have become more self-centered, the idea of group and belonging is still very strong in this country, no matter how smart/strong/cool you are, you can't do nothing nor be anyone in China without good connections. It has always been and always will be.
Chinese see themselves as part of their civilization that is one entity by itself, think the Borg, there do not dream of having a bigger car than their neighbor, they dream of seeing their civilization as a whole climb above others. That is why they take personal pride from their country becoming richer although your average Zhou earning 3000RMB per month has probably never done anything to help it.
And shove your personal attacks where I think, they will not compensate for your lack of arguments.
I once thought the US was the role model for other developing countries. Now that the US is no longer a democracy I have changed my mind. Because paid lobbying is legal we no longer need to vote because it no longer counts. We have turned out o be the most corrupt government on the planet. Elected officials are raking in millions of dollars from the lobbyists. China sure does not want to follow in the US foot steps. Obama is probably the most corrupt president we have ever had, and that is saying something. Most of you will probably disagree with me because you have been brain washed since birth that the US is a utopia. Free trade is killing the US amongst other things. The only thing I ever saw for sale in China, made in the US was Washington apples. The apes in our government have given away the American work force to China etc and have become rich doing it. Wake up America we are getting screwed by our self serving government.
xinyuren:
Ah, so you woke up from your naive honeymoon? Good. Now you realize that every government is self serving and corrupt. Welcome to the real world.
Since this thread has evolved into one of Geo-Politics, let me add my rather lengthy synopses that typed up around 2 months ago in my journal:
It’s a race.
Russia-China-Iran-NK vs NATO-Japan-ROK-PI
The west wishes to keep global supremacy (The USA as the "backbone" of this arrangement), to contain Russia, China, and other developing nations. Of course control of important African, Middle Eastern, and South American nations are of paramount importance in keeping this global supremacy intact
Many of these nations are wishing to disconnect itself from the financial control clutches of the west. Why wouldn’t they! Its been one sided grossly in their favor for so long now. The technology exists to break away from the wests shackles… and they are. Its that simple.
There are risks though. The west has been in control for so long now that they don’t want to end their control of the whole casino. And they probably won't, without a fight.
Unfortunately/fortunately this fight will be different from the past 2 world wars. Nuclear weapons are the obvious profound difference. So it’s a game of time.
Can the west develop a protective "shield" over its land masses? Be it by anti-missile missiles, lasers, or some other direct or indirect weapons (aka Reagan's "Star Wars") so they can launch and devastate those who oppose them. Or will the above nations be able to financially outmaneuver the west with their new economic platforms designed to break away from the parasitic financial institutions of the west.
That’s it folks. That’s the current situation.
You see, if the west goes into this without the protective shield, then in all probability they stand to lose just as much if not more in infrastructure and loss of economic value after the missiles stop being volleyed.
Who would be crippled more in such a barrage of ICBMs being launched both ways?
Obviously things to consider are the number of cities destroyed. The ability to regroup after the dust settles. Another is land mass size, can a specific nation "pick up the pieces" and regroup after widespread global devastation has rocked the planet? A small or medium sized nation probably not so, especially if the majority of their economic and financial well-being is tied to one or a few cities (like Thailand or the Philippines for example).
Countries/continents caught "in the middle" of this nightmare include obviously Japan, ROK the PI, and the EU. They stand to lose out the most if such a scenario were to play out.
Surely Europe has grown quite tired of WAR, especially one that involves nukes being tossed about. Two world wars on their soil within the same century has left scars not so easily erased nor forgotten.
Lest we not forget Japan as well. The only nation that has been the recipient of nukes, even though it was the fission type and 2 cities were demolished. Surely it's something they don’t wish revisited, especially on a larger scale both in potency (fusion nukes), and number of cities destroyed.
If the west develops a "missile shield", be it land, sea, and/or space based, then Russia, China, et. al. should change their policy towards the planet and seriously consider what Israel has implemented in their respective "Sampson Option" by which if they are nuked or threatened with non-existence from ANYONE, then they will nuke a wide number of cities, particularly key ones throughout Europe such as Berlin, Paris, Rome, et.al. Such a policy, while a bit unorthodox and dare I say "crazy" in its format, appears logically sound to keep the peace from a nuclear war standpoint. The recipient nations of Israel's Sampson option nuke policy must begrudgingly work with Israel for their own sake.
Prominent nations I have left out of this dynamic include, but are not limited to India and Israel. Both of these nations are obviously involved in global politics, and both would probably be involved in a WW3 occurance.
5/15/15-
Upon further thought into Zbigniew Brzezinski's comments in regards to "The Grand Chessboard" (stemming from Mackinders "Heartland Theory"), aka "America's 'Asia Pivot'", it becomes vividly clear what the West is up against.
China, India, Russia, SE Asia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, comprise close to 50% of the worlds population. If infrastructure, and economic progress continues in this region, it will undoubtedly become the sole global economic engine, trailblazing a future where Europe is a mere trifling peninsula, and the USA an island of insignificance on the world stage.
In time, nothing will rival a unified central Asian power structure economically, politically, and militarily with a huge population to support it as well.
This IS what has the west worried…deeply worried IMO. It is something they simply can not stop unless war is declared, period. Everyone in the know, probably knows this too, surely. It's blatantly obvious.
The USA's geographical isolation was a benefit during WW1 and WW2, but it also has its drawbacks of being just that… geographically isolated. Thus, it becomes obvious why they wish to keep instability, conflict, etc. on the Asian continent. It prevents development that would become a threat to it in the future.
coineineagh:
Exciting fiction, but poorly fleshed out. You have population numbers supporting your claim that a 3rd world region will outcompete the west. But have you ever met people from those countries? They're of different cultures and religions, and they're not going to "unify against the West" out of the blue. Many of thos cultures hate eachother for past atrocities. China blew it when they massacred a city of Turkmen at their border, and by extension alienated the entire Muslim world. India and Pakistan have tensions up the wazoo, and the other regions are also disorganized messes. Not to mention that most of that region is (sub)tropical, which seriously hampers development. The West colonized most of the leftover temperate regions on the planet.
