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Q: Do Chinese people know that the powers that be are rotten or are they completely oblivious to this?
I think they have no idea.
Sad
8 years 49 weeks ago in Teaching & Learning - China
The longer I am in China, the more I realize that the people and the government here deserve each other perfectly. It's an even better match tjan democratic societies. Self-involved, short-sighted, corrupt idiots leading a bunch of self-involved, short-sighted, corrupt idiots. Even when Chinese complain about government corruption, I get the distinct impression that they are really angry that they are not in on it.if the CCP fell tomorrow, it would be replaced by the same government, because these people aren't capable of building a functional one.
laowaigentleman:
"Even when I hear the Chinese complain about corruption, I get the distinct impression they're complaining because they're not in on it." - Exactly.
They don't fight oppression, they dream of one day becoming the oppressors.
dongbeiren:
Yea it's not so much that corruption is a problem but that they are poor and others are rich through corruption so it pisses them off. If others were getting rich through waste management and they were still poor they'd be complaining about the waste management business. I've never seen such an envious group of people.
No worse than Americans knowing their politicians are corrupt and rotten to the core, yet voting them back into office each election.
laowaigentleman:
Totally agree. That's why I think the American system would be fine for China.
dongbeiren:
Americans don't have a choice: there's the party funded by the banks, the military industrial complex, the oil companies, the drug companies and the insurance companies (the Republicans) versus the party funded by the banks, the trial lawyers, the labor unions, and the insurance companies (the Democrats). Third parties don't play at all.
You're looking at China from the Western (demos) perspective, but 'democratic line' doesn't apply to China, or you could say ''Chinese are oblivious......" or more 'democratic' statement 'they trust their Gov.'
Since I'm not that Englo literate, I'll use c&p for re-posting of two today's threads on China/Rmb from my fav. paper:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-17/belligerent-us-refuses-cede-con...
One story that’s been covered extensively in these pages over the past several months is the emergence of the China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. The bank began to attract quite a bit of attention in early March when the UK decided, much to Washington’s chagrin, to make a bid for membership. The dominoes fell quickly after that and within a month it was quite clear that The White House’s effort to discourage its allies from supporting the new institution had failed in dramatic fashion.
This article will assure you (I hope), you're (will be) better off holding Rmb than US$ or any other Western currency:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-17/how-china-covered-world-liquidi...
The Chinese people traded their ability to influence the society they live in for material wealth. Based on conversations on this topic with Chinese people, they're usually not oblivious, they just 1. don't see any way to change so they don't even think about it, 2. they are afraid to rock the boat, or bite the hand that feeds (off them).
Not a barter I would have done, but face and money trumps all.
Disclosure: I see the world through a "human rights" lens where I use the presence or absence of overall human rights to gauge a country and it's future. And a "ideas" lens, where the overarching, dominating ideas present in a society/country will determine the evolution of said society/country.
laowaigentleman:
Nice. I'll have a think about what kind of lens I apply and post it later. I tend to income economic factors such as income equality, distribution, equality of opportunity, GDP per capita, general cost of living, but those moral aspects are hugely important too.
I sometimes think if I was a leader of a western country that I would do everything I could to form trade alliances which encourage openness. The neo-liberal ideology of 'trade with them and they'll become like us' will be described as naive folly by future generations, I'm sure. It's certainly the lie people like me were sold and once believed in.
The longer I am in China, the more I realize that the people and the government here deserve each other perfectly. It's an even better match tjan democratic societies. Self-involved, short-sighted, corrupt idiots leading a bunch of self-involved, short-sighted, corrupt idiots. Even when Chinese complain about government corruption, I get the distinct impression that they are really angry that they are not in on it.if the CCP fell tomorrow, it would be replaced by the same government, because these people aren't capable of building a functional one.
laowaigentleman:
"Even when I hear the Chinese complain about corruption, I get the distinct impression they're complaining because they're not in on it." - Exactly.
They don't fight oppression, they dream of one day becoming the oppressors.
dongbeiren:
Yea it's not so much that corruption is a problem but that they are poor and others are rich through corruption so it pisses them off. If others were getting rich through waste management and they were still poor they'd be complaining about the waste management business. I've never seen such an envious group of people.
They know it sucks. They won't admit it to a foreigner (well very rarely)... and if they are asked about it they choose denial.
If the government strikes up a national fervor like... Japan or Taiwan or something... they are obedient angry little puppets.
laowaigentleman:
So true. The jingoism is scary. I got a whiff of it when I first came here in 2012 and the Diaoyu Islands debacle broke out.
The high schoolers were charging out of the classroom screaming about America and Japan and trying to talk me into agreeing with them.
I had some PPTs about travel and when pictures of Japan came up they went all crazy, crossing their arms above their heads like the opening to the version of 1984 starring William Hurt as Winston Smith.
greed and selfishness is the uncontested norm. they'd do the same if they were in power, so complaining equals petty jealousy. and being seen as jealous causes face loss.
For decades they have been using hongbais (red packets, i.e. bribes) and with big deals anything, their wife/husband/daughters/sons, and anyone they can control using their guanxi network are part of the hongbai package. Before they open up they would save gifts from their relatives abroad, be it a carton of cigarettes, a towel or a can of cookies, and use them as bribes.
How can these people not know what their government is made up of? Not in details these days perhaps but they definitely know the big picture.
NEVER FORGET THIS ---- before they opened up THERE WERE NO PRIVATE ENTERPRISES. ALL OF THEM WERE CIVIL SERVANTS! Corruption was the norm meaning it is safe to bet that EVERYONE of them, at one point of their work has paid and received bribes FIRST HAND. It is just that the more influential one was the more frequent he/she was on the receving end.
As other posters have mentioned, if they deny knowing how dark their government (and themselves) is it is for face reasons and self-interest (who is the bribe paying party?). These ones lie without blinking.
DrMonkey:
In the old communist times (ie. pre-1980), there was a genuine hope for the radical communism that was fashionable back then. Of course, that did not stopped corruption to exist, but at least, there was something beyond self-interest. Also, the country was so poor, there was little things to be corrupted about. Once the ideologies were bent and the money came-in, in the 80's, however, the current status-quo came in. What would be shocking back then will barely get a tired shrug now. You can boil live frogs by rising water temperature slowly enough...
earthizen:
If you go back far enough, those were the days they could leave doors unlocked because there were really nothing worth stealing. So, to get a better apartment say (they were state assigned) what do you have to do?.......
Chinese people are fully aware of many of the problems of their society and their leaders but they lack the drive and capacity to do anything about it: there is no civil society in China and people rarely discuss politics. There are no formal institutions (town hall meetings, community groups, political parties) or informal mechanisms like discussion with neighbors and friends to effect any change in the society. The party would be sure to stamp out any group that could be organizing people as it would be a threat to their power. Most Chinese are conditioned from birth to accept the status quo rather than question or god forbid try to change it. Chinese lack a sense of self-empowerment and consider themselves resigned to living in a society plagued by pollution, corruption and uncivilized behavior. They don't seek change from within and the lucky few with the resources to do so use them to flee the country. So yes, they are aware but they will simply keep their heads down and try to get through life rather than attempt to change their predicament.
