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Q: Do foreigners in China who unfairly generalise and critizize give all foreigners here a bad rep?
Some foreigners in China see a few Chinese people doing something that they dont like and immediately assume that every Chinese person does it. They criticize anything thats different to what they perceive as 'normal' or 'developed'. Are these people, whether operating online or in real life, giving the rest of us foreigners a bad reputation and is there anything we can do prevent this scourge?
Snow its only the 2nd November, but i think the fireworks are going to start early lol
snowballeffect:
lol, theres a few fireworks gne off already for sure. Happy Guy Fawkes day!
snowballeffect:
Really, paulmrartin, I think you should stick to issuing people death threats on here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Day
The question is not that we criticize people or actions in China. The question is why do you take such grand offense to China criticism when this is an expat forum meant to discuss the good bad and ugly here?
Do you have an agenda?
I have greater critiques of my country and others (like the US) but I am often astounded at the effort put forth by certain people here (present company included) to defend all things China when they claim to be objective expats.
I have never claimed to love all things China nor have I ever claimed to hate it all.
Why do you continue to refuse intelligent balanced dialogue?
snowballeffect:
is that a guilty conscience speaking dud? I just take offence to boring little people going online and unfairly negatively labeling a whole nation just because they see 1 or 2 people doing something they dont like and dont understand why it is different to what they do ( I didnt mention any specific names, but feel free to name and shame if you wish dudley).
That kind of behaviour stinks of bigotry and cowardice. Wow, once again, your answer does seem to be quite aggressive, dont be giving us a bad name for that too......
thedude:
Drink some more kool-aid moron. People here are not stupid.
snowballeffect:
Dudley, this is English English, you know the original English, from ENGLAND.
thedude:
Editing after the fact does nothing to give you credibility.
nevermind:
Actually SB the English in North America is the proper English as it is a fossilized version of the language from a few hundred years ago. Any native speaker knows this.
boxer:
I new to here and I am a chinese, why you mr thedude call me and my peoples naive and convoloted, I know what naive mean, that is not nice, why you so nasty to chinese people. where do you live inchina, I do not understand. Thank you.
I guess once we allow questions like this, people think it is logical to ask more and more stupid questions. Stupidity seems to have a snowball effect.
thedude:
Actually your disdain for Wikipedia is consistent with your wumao ideology.
Keep trying dude.
thedude:
You are obviously mentally challenged. Please provide answers. Because you are about as truthful in your defense as Mitt Romney and believe me this is not a compliment.
snowballeffect:
What a boring quip, and wasted on someone from the UK.
Traveler:
On another post you stated that China was your home now. So if indeed you were from the UK, you have rejected your country. That means you do not belong with the people on here, most of whom still relate as citizens of their home countries. It is very sad that you reject your heritage, and do not really belong anywhere.
All expats know that China can never be a permanent home. Only a Chinese person would wrongly believe that was possible.
snowballeffect:
Show me the post. What I said was that I have a rich life both here and in the UK, where I have a successful career within Finance in the City. I'm taking 6 months out from that on a tourist Visa. I also said that if I wanted to I could stay here.
You had suggested that I read some article about Mark Kitto (that I had already read) and suggested that China would never ever be my home. Stop trying to make stuff up Gypsy boy and grow a pair. What do you do for a living, you're definitely not a history teacher?
snowballeffect:
And Traveler, stick to the subject as well, you're petulance is getting on my wick now. Go and exterminate somebody else.
Traveler:
You actually said China was your "home from home." A real British person would have said "home AWAY from home." No doubt you have edited that out now. So you are Chinese, trying desperately to be a foreigner?
snowballeffect:
Your grasp of the English language isn't as good as you think, lets hope you aren't an English teacher here!?
 home from home - a place where you are just as comfortable and content as if you were home |
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/home+from+home Now go traveling up someone else back yard.
Traveler:
It's "your petulance" not "you're petulance". A true Brit would have known that. Now you are trying too hard with punctuation and contractions.
snowballeffect:
No, as I said, I'm NOT trying hard to write correct English, that is the last thing I am interested in. You're not a good reader are you, I said that to you on another post? So, what about your half-assed 'home from home' theory? What a bellend that made you look, eh? Note: Bellend is english english, you might not have heard of it so dont start crying.
Traveler:
It should read "someone else's." You really do have trouble with the contractions, but most Chinese do. The sign in the picture you posted says "home away from home." You should read more carefully when you are looking up words and phrases to post.
snowballeffect:
What a strange little man you are traveller boy - the traveling grammar geek. What you lack knowledge of in history, morality, and common sense, you make up for in contractions and whatever that other shit was. BORING.
snowballeffect:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/home+from+home
Check the link GGG, the picture wasn't relating to 'home from home' but was inadvertently picked up when I copied, again GGG, I aint on this site to show off my ability to use big words or have perfect grammar all the time..... as I said on a previous thread when asked how to define good English:
"Not by ones ability to use amplitudinous words that no mortal can comprehend in an egotistic endeavor to make onesself appear sophisticated or intelligent."
Traveler:
OK. I'll humour you. Your latest story is that you are only spending 6 months in China taking some time out on a tourist visa. If that's the case, who the hell are you to tell those of us that have lived here, worked with the people, and have spent years here, what is right and what is wrong? You're nothing more than a backpacker, with no knowledge of this country whatsoever, other than what you have read on the internet. Many of us know the country first hand, from actually living here.
snowballeffect:
Traveller, you're a complete numbskull, why speculate about someones background as much as that? I've been coming here for several years now for holidays including several 6 months stays. I 'm staying in the REAL China amongst a REAL Chinese family and REAL Chinese friends. I dont live in an expat bubble and critisize everything thats different. Thats your lame ass job. Humour me!!!???, you're a joke. and an advocator of mindless unfounded bigotry.
nevermind:
Never in my life heard "home from home" even though it may have been an expressiona at one time "home away from home" is the modern and common expression. So, your "talk english like a native" books are out of date, SB.
snowballeffect:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+home+from+home
English English!
a home from home (British) also a home away from home (American & Australian)
thedude:
For some one that disdains Wikipedia you sure love dictionary.com.
Why in all my years online why have I never felt the urge to look at a dictionary.....hhhhmmmm?
snowballeffect:
Dudley, the dictionary was only used to prove your 'mates' nevermind and traveller wrong. Still waiting to hear why you think all Chinese are naive and convoluted? Your mask is slipping Dudley and the peoples eyes are opened to the real you now. BIGOT
This is a valid question and one that needs to be asked. Someone has claimed that this is an "expat" forum. Can someone tell me WHO made this determination? This is the Internet and as such those kind of private forums just don't exist much unless they have been hijacked by a small group. A claim could be made for that line of thinking of, too,
I agree with Snowball's question. I think that it deserves a valid, intelligent answer. Sorry that the questions displeases some but then again I, for one, don't come here to worry about what anyone else thinks.
Snowball, thanks for the question.
thedude:
981...you are the dictionary definition of a wumao and yes....you disappeared for a while but don't think for a second I don't remember you.
Chinese can be so naive and assume we don't have the intelligence to defend ourselves when in reality they are the convoluted ones.
snowballeffect:
Thanks 981, I think its only fair to discuss this in a calm and collected way.
snowballeffect:
Dudley, so all Chinese are naive and convoluted. I think we've just named and shamed our first person.
thedude:
If you are going to pretend you speak functional English I suggest you practice it......OUR...not are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thedude:
I am glad you took my advice and rapidly changed your spelling.
snowballeffect:
I wouldnt know, but you certainly sound a bit like one. Case in point - Just the other day you said you never unfairly generalised about Chinese people, today you're calling them all naive and convoluted.
snowballeffect:
Why do you think that way, what have they ever done to you?
thedude:
Wumaos are very similar to pollsters in the US. Why do you refuse to offer a real answer...oh wait...I know why...nevermind (sorry dude)..
Turn all questions into questions...why does my ass hurt...oh...it must be because you are gay....that's it...
snowballeffect:
NO, Dudley, why do you think all Chinese people are naive and convoluted? I dont care what you think about your holy Wumaos. My gosh this is hard work.
thedude:
If you don't know it's pointless to tell you for obvious reasons....doh!!!
snowballeffect:
You proclaim to be the open minded dud, but really you just enjoy demeaning the Chinese peoples for no reason. Why is that?
crimochina:
the dude do you remember jihu (matayaya other account) claimed to be dyslexic. and marty claimed to be dyslexic.
Another naming and shaming on a recent post
Snowball, try talking to a smart chinese person, they'll tell you about how they're bred to hat.e
crimochina:
no balls, why are you afraid to talk to an intelligent chinese person?
nevermind:
And to hear the truth. My wife says in school they loved to talk about how the evil foreigners always mistreated the Chinese. It is a well-known aspect of the Chinese education system meant to make people hate foriegners and rally byt he brave CPC who saved them from the evil white man.
SNow ball even TRYING to deny this proves it worked on him.
I'm with the Dude on this one. Attacking stuff we think is ill-mannered, racist, undeveloped, stupid, ignorant or just retarded is a fine tradition. I will do it for things in my own country too. Sometimes, I'll even use the same racist etc. language that I've heard to make the point even more strongly. And sometimes I'm just being an imperialistic racist because I choose to be so in that moment.
And what is this shit about English from ENGLAND being the only real English. That's utter crap. There are too many ESL teachers from England teaching horrible accents to people across the world. I've even heard one Londoner teaching, 'What is you doing tonight?' Ridiculous.
yian:
Thanks. Together, we can all fix the world through eChinacities.
att no balls (and other accounts ): please look up the word generalization (it means to make an assumption based on a small sample. that is likely to be true in most cases but not all) some people hate generalizing, i can understand that. but please know that it does not assume "all" are the same way. that would be an absolute statement not a generalization. ex: all french people are rude. french people are rude. do you see the difference?
a generalization does not assume all will be the same it assume most will be the same (50%+1). if you disagree with the generalization then debate the poster on it.
it is funny how noballs, loke, marty, hugh all have the same exact position and think a generalization assumes "all".
and by the way for those who disagree with generalizing (on principle) , it is good enough for scientific research and polling. (a random 10% sample and you assume the true is same for the rest.)
nevermind:
No no, Crimo.... when no balls talks about "all foreigners" it's okay, but when we talk about "Chinese" it's horrible generalizing and stereotyping.
snowballeffect:
hahaha, nevermind, exactly when and where did I negatively reference all foreigners? You're really not very good at this are you? 
nevermind:
Again... all your posts are meant to male foreigners look bad. It's obvious
There are two different sides to this question. The Dude is right about having the freedom to criticize, but it should be done in a sensible way. We all see people doing things that we personally don't agree with, and that is not just in China. It is all too easy to see that and brand everyone with the same behaviour. Sure we see plenty of people here pushing in, spitting and pissing in the street, staring and saying stupid things. There are plenty of these occurrences back home too, how many times do people get labelled as white trash, trailer trash, muslims who are all seen as potential terrorists, people who come from the countryside referred to as bumpkins.
Whilst I uphold the right to free speech, including criticism, but with rights come responsibilities. Whether we like it or not we are guests in a country with ideas and culture that at times seems totally opposite to what we consider as normal. There are plenty of times when we come across things that will drive us nuts but if we are going to criticize it should be done in an intelligent way, not just letting our mouths run wild. We should also remember that not everything in our home countries is perfect, if it was why would we want to be anywhere other than home? The foreigners who unfairly criticize do give all foreigners a bad reputation, but only in the minds of those Chinese who do not, or can not, think through the criticism to see whether it is justified, others accept it is for what it is. But is that any different to us when we label a whole group of people as trailer trash based on the actions of possibly only the one or two we have seen doing or saying stupid things?
981977405:
tomcatflyer, I wish that you give up 10,000 thumbs up for this really good answer....and well reasoned and lucidly written.
Ahem [clearing throat sound]...Can I have the attention of the class...for one second?!
I don't like how this thread is spiraling into a tasteless name-calling frenzy. Now I can do 4 things: delete the individual comments which are insulting and abusive, delete the entire question and thread just to get rid of this eyesore, lock the thread so that no more venom can be spewed or write you all a quick message to remind you all to be nice to each other. This is not a kindergarten, nor is it a witch hunt. It's a forum for you guys to interact and discuss...but remember: keep it civil folks! You've all been warned!
crimochina:
i vote for sending a message to everyone. i do not wish for comments to be deleted. we are all adults, although we may not act like it (myself especially) but seeing ourselves for who we are and what we do is a great way to learn
I've been here seen 2005 and i've been through plenty of bad China day's. This forum is a valuable place for releasing your frustrations. It's not my way to air my own frustrations in a public place, i'm an introverted Brit, so instead I just beat the wife, but I get where a lot of people on here are coming from. As for people like Crimo, who seem to have a genuine disliking for China, I think that's a shame, particularly if they still choose to live here. I personally think the Chinese are no different than Americans, Brits, Canadians, Australian bastards, whoever. Just people. And it's my way to be respectful to all people and do my utmost best to understand what I see, that I can continue to see all people in that light of equality. But yeh, to answer your question, I believe that the words of one foreigner do reflect upon others, that's just the way it is. Sorry for the generalization but making harsh generalizations creates further generalizations because people are generally very quick to generalize. It makes them think they understand the world.
snowballeffect:
Good points martian, I think in general most people would agree with you. Generally speaking if you dont fully understand the general public less generalisations is generally the best option.
crimochina:
again i ask you, how is loving people and wanting people to not be exposed to toxins in food air and water. wanting people to be educated not indoctrinated. wanting people to be considerate of others. wanting people to be respectful to their living surroundings. how is that disliking china??? i'm gonna tell you something i over heard a coach say during tryouts. a player asked the coach why he kept yelling at him when other players were performing far worse than him. the coach said their not making the team so i don't give a rats ass about them. the players that are making the team, i care about them and need them to get better.
i truely view all humans as equal and hold them to the same standard. when america/ americans do something wrong a stand up and say it. the same as anyone else. what the ccp has trouble with is anyone talking about what is wrong in china (including their own people) like it or not this is echinacities and it is here to stay!
the ccp banned the new york times but the story became bigger as a result, get it???
mArtiAn:
Sure, I appreciate what you said there Crimo, I just find some of your posts unnecessarily insulting sometimes. Haha, says the person who just called Australians bastards. Difference is I say shit like that in jest. It's a form of tourettes.
Mate, I wouldn't get on your case if all you were doing was pointing out where the government is going wrong, i'd be cheering you on. I honestly don't know diddly squat about all that stuff, I never read, listen to or watch the news. But I do know the people of China, and I sometimes find the comments you make about them quite deeply offensive. Maybe i'm just over-sensitive, but like i've said before, my wife is Chinese and my son is half Chinese, so if anyone makes a blanket statement that I feel is in any way an attack on them, I will speak up about it. It's got nothing to do with the CCP or any of that lot, I don't care about them. My world is mostly just within these few walls.
I thought Admin was going to do something about posters like this who seek to disrupt the board constantly.
Like I give a SHIT about if Chinese don't like us because we criticize the whole borg ant colony thing they have going on here. If they want to sit there with stupid smiles on their faces while their maffia government takes advantage of them, people are rude to them or people rip them off that's their business. I don't have to like it and I sure as hell don't have to say I like it.
And you're too thick to know it's Chinese like YOU who give China a bad name. As well, if you hate us knocking China so much then why do you offer us the chance to do so with these threads so often?
snowballeffect:
Nevermind, the question was specifically tailored to draw out such venomous and slanderous responses such as yours, and hence help illustrate the issues the question alludes to, for the benefit of those who may not know.
You made the following statement recently, could you please explain your justification for it:
Snowball, try talking to a smart chinese person, they'll tell you about how they're bred to hat.e
nevermind:
I think it's rather pathetic how you think your racist and ignorant comments about foreigner are somehow acceptable, but ours about Chinese are totally unacceptable.
Go away.
snowballeffect:
Which racist comment Nevermind......please give your adoring fans specifics?
There isn't any is there? Come on Nevermind, we're all waiting, stop trying to worm your way out of this. When did I say that and why do you think all Chinese people are bred to hate?
snowballeffect:
Answer the question, and give me an example. Why do you think all Chinese people are bred to hate? Is that not a bit racist and bigoted? Your fans are waiting.
nevermind:
What part of "all of your 'questions'" didn't answer the question you posed?
Your questions are designed as backhanded insults to "foreigners" in this country, cause, you know, we're all the same.
All of them, noballs. All ovf your questions serve a purpose rooted in racism.
snowballeffect:
LOL, you're really trying to worm your way out of this, what a joke, give me one specific question were I was racist towards the 'foreigner' race? You cant can you, because there isnt one. All of my questions were questions, not statements and clearly referred to subsets of foreigners.
Now, back to you, saying 'Chinese people are all born to hate' - that is a statement about all chinese people. You getting the logic now nevermind?
boxer:
mr nevermind, why you no answer this question, i am a chinese and I very angry with what i read. My family I tell them and they no happy. I live near Guilin, do you live near there?
nevermind:
boxer you have worst fake chinglish ever. go away snowball.
Also snowball, it's pretty lame to be posing as a Chinese person now, and frankly really racist. But of course, as your constant antagonistic posts prove, you don't mind being racist.
The thing Chinese people have to understand that we are as critical of our own countries as we are of China or anywhere else.
The cultural difference here is if you criticise China in the the least it is like a huge offensive crime.
If you can't point out something's shortcomings, how can it be improved?
snowballeffect:
Nevermind saying that all Chinese are bred to hate. thedude saying that all Chinese are naive and convoluted. Do you believe that these are justifiable shortcomings that Chinese people need to learn from? Could it not be said that these are gross and bigoted exaggerations?
nevermind:
Snowball saying that all foreigners are here to drink and rape women.... that's okay in his world.
snowballeffect:
Answer the question Nevermind and please tell me exactly when I said that? You're on the ropes aren't you, your arms are flailing, stop lieing to try and get off them, be a man and show some backbone. I'm having an amnesty here, if you admit your comments like this are sometimes bigoted and ignorant, I will let you off the hook, I will give you a reprieve.
nevermind:
On the ropes? I think you care alot more than I do. I just think you're a choad. A choad whoe purposely comes on this site highlighting the worst aspects of certain expats while ultimately trying to make people in general think that's what all expats are like. You question the other day about foreign men dating younger women. What's the F*Cking difference considering how many older Chinese men date young women? Oh yeah, they're foriegners... and you're a racist Chinese loser.
snowballeffect:
Nevermind, you are dillusional, I have never asked a question about foreign men dating younger women, have I? I did ask a question yesterday about why some foreign men come here and date/marry women they cant communicate with? That is not racist or bigoted in the slightest. Now what you said about all chinese people being bred to hate, that is. Negative towards all expat/foreigners - I am one. Mthe vast majority of people on this website are genuine people. There is a small minority of users who unfairly critisize everything Chinese that they dont understand. You are one of these users, and some of the others can be clearily seen in some of the other posts. You're on the canvas now nevermind, I've floored you with a massive right hook. I don't think you can get up now.
nevermind:
You said once under one of your other IDs about pervy old foreigners coming here. Don't try to deny it. Make something of yourself in life, then you won't hate foreigners as much.
snowballeffect:
Nevermind, I have never made a comment under another ID, I am not Marty, Loke, Huge, or anybody else. that is insulting to them to say so. Stop f*cking the internet around nevermind and answer the question. What is your justification for saying what you did? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9........last chance
dharma86:
Nobody is an angel here.
Alot of Chinese and foreigners generalise each other.
Prejudice is unfair, that's an historical fact.
snowballeffect:
Yes, dharma, fair is fair, if a chinese person came on here and unfairly critisized all foreigners I would ask the same of them. This is not a witch hunt, this is a fair and open trial.
nevermind:
I`ve said it and pointed it out three times now. Are you a retard? How many times do I need to point it out?
snowballeffect:
So you discriminate against and ridicule disabled people now as well? Anyone else you want to add onto the list. Chinese, disabled people.......
Explain why you think all Chinese people are bred to hate nevermind, and again, watch what comes out of your mouth?
nevermind:
I already explained it. Don't try to deflect. You're proving your wu maoness even more.
How can you say that it is unfair to generalize or criticize China? And how can this give a bad rep? Look how stupid Chinese act, the staring, whispering and laughing from the ignorant fools. If I was to give a newbie advice, the first would be trust no one, until they prove themselves, then still watch them.
nevermind:
Cause he's a jackass. As I said, he's the Frank Burns of Echinacities.
snowballeffect:
What I said was taht it is not right to unfairly generalise about or critisise China, I didnt say it is unfair to critisize or generalise about China full stop.There is a BIG difference.Most of what nevermind and his gang say is just unfounded bigotry like the example above where he said all Chinese people are bred to hate, which he is still unwilling to explain. Unless of course you agree with that statement? Nevermind, watch your mouth.
nevermind:
snowball will be the judge of what is fair and unfair everyone. Clear it with him before you make a comment.
He certainly is the snowball effect....more and more people hate him everyday.
WonHungLo:
The Chinese believe the strangest things. I think you can generalize with the Chinese maybe more than any nationality, because they don't have enough individual thoughts. Too many believe the Borg collective Chinese mindset, like pregnant Chinese women, must stay in bed etc, getting an idea across is often difficult as most (generalization) do not think outside the box.
