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Q: Do you desire Chinese lang. to become more popular in your country as English is becoming in China ?
(If it is not happening, ie)
(*lang. = language)
7 years 50 weeks ago in Teaching & Learning - China
You, a few days ago: "I am non-Chinese".
The current topic: Entry #103 in an endless litany of patriotic Chinese drivel.
In answer to your question: Of course not. The only reason the Chinese language is becoming more widely spoken in the West is the mass migration of rich Chinese people to anywhere that isn't China.
Chinese will NEVER be an international language which everyone wants to learn, because China has nothing to offer the world culturally.
I know you've been told that "foreign people are becoming more interested in Chinese culture". Sorry, you were lied to.
WhyHowWhen:
@Samsara, How is being non-Chinese connected with this Q ? Do you represent the minds of all non-Chinese, and if so, how exactly should they think ?
@nzteacher80, Harsh ? Nah! Thats when a teacher seconds China has nothing to offer the world culturally.!
Englteachted:
What does China have to offer culturally? (Assuming you actually understand the question) Anti Japanese dramas? Shitty music? Crappy movies? Copied literature (China tries to claim Aesop fables and even some bible stories as theirs) If you can't include Hong Kong (Cantonese) and Taiwan or Korea (they're next to be claimed) then you can't submit anything as proof.
WhyHowWhen:
You have this wierd habit of 'assuming' everything and shooting off irrationally as your mind is fixated with deriding China/Chinese as shown in your rants. I presume the best thing is to let you live blissfully happy in your ignorant world!
You, a few days ago: "I am non-Chinese".
The current topic: Entry #103 in an endless litany of patriotic Chinese drivel.
In answer to your question: Of course not. The only reason the Chinese language is becoming more widely spoken in the West is the mass migration of rich Chinese people to anywhere that isn't China.
Chinese will NEVER be an international language which everyone wants to learn, because China has nothing to offer the world culturally.
I know you've been told that "foreign people are becoming more interested in Chinese culture". Sorry, you were lied to.
WhyHowWhen:
@Samsara, How is being non-Chinese connected with this Q ? Do you represent the minds of all non-Chinese, and if so, how exactly should they think ?
@nzteacher80, Harsh ? Nah! Thats when a teacher seconds China has nothing to offer the world culturally.!
Englteachted:
What does China have to offer culturally? (Assuming you actually understand the question) Anti Japanese dramas? Shitty music? Crappy movies? Copied literature (China tries to claim Aesop fables and even some bible stories as theirs) If you can't include Hong Kong (Cantonese) and Taiwan or Korea (they're next to be claimed) then you can't submit anything as proof.
WhyHowWhen:
You have this wierd habit of 'assuming' everything and shooting off irrationally as your mind is fixated with deriding China/Chinese as shown in your rants. I presume the best thing is to let you live blissfully happy in your ignorant world!
Language is a tool, it must be useful. Chinese is not useful except in China. English is necessary in China for 2 reasons, business and to get the hell out. Everyone and their mother is trying to get out.
These days the Chinese language is but a tool for the rest of the world to do business, if/when the Chinese business partner is unable to converse in English. English IS the language of commerce, but China is holding steadfast to their own language. For the rest of the world it is totally impractical to become fluent in Mandarin, such a complicated language which even most Chinese never really fully master.
Monosyllabic, pictographic, grunt 'language' has run it's course.
'More popular'... never!
Consider - 1 syllable 'shi' can have how many possible meanings, which only context can provide? I'd use pinyin for that, but that'd a) mean having to look up that ascii code for the accent/tone mark, and b) it's pretty damn irrelevant anyway, because it depends on which province (or even, city) you're in.
And then, there's the 10/4 split... where the consonantal changes as well! I once asked a worker at a bus station for the bus to XYZ. He said 'si-yi' and pointed. I looked around and around and around... I asked again, he "si-yi" said again, and pointed... it took me a bit to realise it wasn't '41'... but '11'... See, even Chinese doesn't speak Chinese!
And then, there's the writing... OMFG! You seriously think the world is going to stop using 26 letters of English and change over to X-thousand characters???
Chinese is becoming the next taught language in schools - AFTER English (depending on country of origin)... but will NEVER surpass English (while China is as China is...).
But, Chinglish will probably evolve 
WhyHowWhen:
but will NEVER surpass English
Undoubtedly English is the most widely (commonly) spoken language internationally.
My Q meaning is of Chinese becoming 'more' popular than what it is now... not 'more' popular than English itself.
Shining_brow:
Well, if that's all you're after - an increase in the number of students studying Chinese - then yes.
But hey, in my country, we had traditionally been low on bi/multi-lingualism and education in schools. That's been changing in the last couple of decades.
Will Chinese ever get taught the the same extreme that English is in China? Hell no! A) we prefer choice, and b) English is the international language/lingua franca... anything else is for flavour.
A bigger question for you might be - will Chinese ever surpass 2nd langauge of choice in English speaking countries - overtaking Spanish, French, German, Japanese... again, not too likely in the near future.
And, let's face it - if the CCP keeps on its agenda in the SCS, China may not exist for much longer! (well, ok, it will - but the CCP won't!)
If Mandarin Chinese was the international aviation language, aeroplanes would be extinct.
Warning: Rant. tl;dr at the bottom.
Among Chinese heritage nationals in the Netherlands, public pressure has caused a lot of them to neglect Chinese language learning with their children. Compare this to Germany, where cultural intrusion into family life is less, meaning most ethnic Chinese in Germany still speak their language in their community.
I would never argue for learning Chinese *written* language in detail, because it is inefficient to the point of oppressive, to force your children to rote-memorize thousands of characters. It robs children of their curiosity, their freedom, and their creativity. I wouldn't be surprised if its effects are similar to that of medically induced autism, severe childhood trauma, or a brain hemorrage.
However, you can safely learn a few hundred important characters, and a healthy mind will allow you to extrapolate most unknown characters from their context. This way, you could get by enough to read street signs or understand most of a newspaper.
Chinese spoken language is rather simple, from the perspective of grammar and vocabulary. Pronunciation can be tricky, but kids catch on very quickly. But it doesn't guarantee you can communicate effectively, as Chinese will fail to understand even perfect Chinese, if it is spoken with a foreign/non-regional accent or by a foreign-looking person.
Last week I was told a joke that really rings true: A british language expert is lost in a rural village in the south of China, and asks for directions. He asks in Putonghua/Mandarin. Nobody answers. He asks in Cantonese. Finally, he asks in the villagers' local dialect, to no avail. After the man leaves, villagers start talking: "I could have sworn that Englishman asked the way to the strain station in Mandarin, Cantonese, and then in our dialect. Weird."
Anyway, Chinese spoken language grants you access to China, and interaction with people. If you are Chinese, it may get you more positive interaction than expats receive. Even if you are living in a country like the Netherlands, and have no plans to ever go to China, then still: Why would you willingly give up on an aspect of your identity, even if the community demands it?
Dutch Chinese who (unconsciously?) made this decision, are quite insistant to argue the merits of monolingualism, and the difficulties of clinging to another culture. "If my son should learn a language, then computer programming is more useful."
Yeah, but your son isn't learning computer programming, you pushed him out the door against his will to go to music class. Typical Chinese. What practical use, besides appearing artsy, is there to learning an instrument? Can you ask the way to the train station with that violin?
It's these things: Sticking to Chinese food while you live in Holland, where Chinese ingredients are expensive and you have access to tasty dishes from around the world. Criticising how learning Chinese characters must be forced upon a child, but then forcing your kid to go to music class, which you pressured him in to, and he obliges to make you happy. All the exaggerated bourgeois fussiness to maintain your appearance of culture and sophistry, but lacking the substance. All the bad habits kept intact, only you lost your language. If there was one cultural aspect I would keep (partially) intact, it would be Chinese language.
Damn. There's only a billion other native speakers, 14% of the worl's population, in a country where it's easy to make money if you have language AND cross-border access. You think computer programming is better? Fine. Your kid can repair laptops for a living, while mine buys them where they're cheap, and sells them where they're valuable.
tl;dr
Chinese is a crap language compared to others. The written script is intentionally inaccessible, resulting in most Chinese being unable to read the entire 'alphabet'. But Mandarin is the language of China. If your child has the option of learning it, especially speaking, make sure he does.
Hotwater:
Great rant and I did read it all.
Your last point is interesting but I partly disagree. The majority of British Chinese are of Cantonese origins. So IMHO their families should teach them their native language for use at home, not Mandarin. That's where they'll keep some cultural roots.
Example. In my hometown there is a fish and chip shop been run by the same Cantonese family for the last 45 years. I've known them all that time and the youngest son was a school mate of mine. The older sons now run the business. They speak English with the same Northern English accent as me. Took my wife back a couple of times now. She always chats with them in Cantonese as they kept their language alive at home. They make fun of themselves now when I'm there as I speak more Mandarin as them. They never spoke it in Guangdong as young kids and neither did their parents. So they don't speak it at home in my home town.
coineineagh:
Cantonese is not a useless language either. If that is your family's original tongue, then speak it at home, don't lose it.
ScotsAlan:
Excellent post coin. Nail on head and all that. The language and communication system is too complex. It takes up too much ROM, and reduces available RAM.
IMO...FYI. English will never become "popular" in China. Sure, the younger educated generation(
are learning it in droves, but you hardly ever hear them speak it to one another as they always revert to their native tongue. Im guessing you are only perceiving it as a person who has never traveled, let alone lived in a bigger city outside of China.
Go visit Bangkok for around 2 weeks, and then compare/contrast how much any typical Chinese city has made English so "popular" as you say...
In the town where I live (US) it is certainly becoming more popular as the 2nd language choice for middle and high school students. The other languages offered are French, Spanish, German, Latin, Italian and Japanese.
Generally the more academic kids who are planning to attend university pick Mandarin. I think the parents believe it will help their children "keep up with the Chinese" in the future.
I do wish the quality of instruction was better. The teachers are somehow affiliated with the Confucius Institute, which is under China's ministry of education. Apparently they provide some of the money and materials for the classes. (One of those things that make me go "hmmmmm")
There is way to much focus on culture and not enough on learning to speak the basic language. The teacher brought in moon cakes and took off participation points for the kids who didn't want to eat them.
Honestly, my older son has learned more spoken language from the Rosetta Stone app.
Shining_brow:
Confucius Institute has a bad reputation in a number of places.
I tried Rosetta Stone... bores me senseless! I much prefer Pimsleur, or even Michel Thomas.
Lord_hanson:
I thought you were a fake account that is supposed to generate traffic for this site.
No because I have read that many linguists consider chinese to be a "sound poor" language, meaning i suppose that people to speak it are assumed as being in poverty. Most people prefer NOT to listen for people who "sound poor".
Poverty is an major social issue and the last thing we need is more people sounding poor and ruining the reputation of the west for affluence.
Janosik:
Oh, really?
Hmm, let me make it a bit clearer:
1) We started with discriminating races
2) Then nations
3) Now languages?
I hope you are just not aware what you wrote ...
Otherwise I recommend you to become Christian - they have that saying that those 'mentally challenged' will go directly to the heaven ...
expatlife26:
janosik you misunderstand.
It is a linguistic joke.
Sound-poor means that Chinese language does not have as many different sounds as many other languages, so that context becomes very important because there are so many words with tiny difference in pronunciation.
It is a play on words that "sound-poor' meaning having few sounds also can have the additional meaning of to sound poor, as in poverty.
It's just a pun.
I see it Okay to be taught as afternoon class, like any kind of art or football,etc. activities for free time. But I don't see it in schools as second or third language.
Janosik:
Well, especially for country like CZ, SK having certain group of people capable of fluent Mandarin could be the great advantage.
After revolution many foreign investors were placing their Russian market destined production lines in CZ and SK exactly due to ability of people speaking Russian.
May be if the people speak Chinese so it could be great competitive edge.
On top of that Confucius institute in Prague is overwhelmed by high schools requirement for Chinese teachers - I see it a good sign ...
Learning Chinese will be a passing fad, not unlike the great interest in learning Japanese some years ago.
Chinese is too unwieldy and open to ambiguity for conducting business in, as clauses in contracts will often require great detail.
As it is a tonal language, it does not have the range of subtly of expression that non-tonal languages have in terms of providing additional information.
in non-tonal languages, tone is used as an additional layer of expression to give further understanding.
Janosik:
I honestly hope that majority of native English speakers will adopt your point of view ...
This can be huge chance for Europe (with exception of UK who may probably exit EU anyway ...) to succeed in the 21st century!
I really don't care much if it becomes more, or les popular. It doesn't affect me and aside from tourism, and maybe business I doubt that Chinese will ever be at the point where it's useful enough to be a required language in schools.
I would like to see more people learning it though, if only because it might help break down some cultural barriers.
just thought I'd throw this into the mix.
Even in China, there is a very high percentage (at least 40%) of the people who can not speak Putonghua.
It is usually said that about 3,000 characters are needed for basic literacy in Chinese (for example, to read a Chinese newspaper), and a well-educated person will know well in excess of 4,000 to 5,000 characters.
Most Chinese could not really be described as 'well educated', the average Chinese person knows 4000, all of which have to be 'rote-learnt'
Note that Chinese characters should not be confused with Chinese words, as the majority of modern Chinese words, unlike their Ancient Chinese and Middle Chinese counterparts, are multi-morphemic and multi-syllabic compounds, that is, most Chinese words are written with two or more characters; each character representing one syllable. Knowing the meanings of the individual characters of a word will often allow the general meaning of the word to be inferred, but this is not invariably the case.
The average native English speaker knows 30,000 words.
Janosik:
Oh mine 
You do not speak Chinese, do you?
If you would you could not write such bunch of semi truths and provide absolutely misleading information ...
I suggest you consult the topic first with somebody who has at least some idea and then you can contribute - you will avoid looking like semi literate, arrogant fool ...
Shining_brow:
Janosik.... just calling someone ignorant and arrogant does NOT disprove a point!
If you have better, reliable information that counters Sorrel's points - show them!
Firstly, yes, there is a very large percentage of mainlanders who do not speak Putonghua. Firstly, many older people (over 40) do not, as they didn't have access to the education during Mao's decades of destruction. Secondly, while those on the east coast (in the big cities) may be speaking Mandarin, the interior is still full of dialect which is vastly preferred over the Beijing dialect (now called the official language). This is also true of many eastern coastal cities.
The majority of Chinese do NOT use Putonghua as their home tongue. They use local dialect at home. Even my current younger students will do that.
As for character recognition... HSK tests actually say only 3000-4000 characters are needed to read a newspaper. Also, given China's history and education, again, only the most recent generations have had access to enough schooling to read more than those few thousand characters.
And, lastly - why the hell would you want to??? One symbol, one sound makes FAR more sense. And then apply a fairly short list of rules governing how symbols combine to modify the sounds (occasionally) is a FAR better system than having to rote-learn thousands of symbols (pronunciation AND meaning!)
Janosik:
@Shining
Actually the trouble is that the mix is partly correct but put together in a way which is totally wrong.
What concerns of your example (somewhere up I think) about 'si2 yi1' which is supposed to be 'shi2 yi1' but you understood it as 'si4 yi1' - it's connected with big part of China having trouble to pronounce 'sh', 'zh', 'ch' (and in some parts also distinguish between 'l' and 'n').
But you can notice that the people from different provinces have little trouble to understand each other.
When I started to learn Chinese so I also had huge troubles with non standard pronunciation - not anymore ...
When you say that many Chinese do not speak 'proper' Mandarin so you are right, but surprise surprise - they usually still understand each other without any problem - it's more like with German dialects - many Germans simply do not speak proper German but they still do not have trouble to mutually understand each other.
The real problem with Mandarin could be in Tibet, Xinjiang and may be Guangdong. But even in these places the young people (under 40 years of age) usually have no trouble to speak Mandarin fluently.
At the end of the day it's a language used in schools and spoken in TV.
What concerns of the widespread 'myth' that it's enough to learn 3-4,000 characters to read newspapers so it's again both true and wrong.
It's true if you are Chinese and speak fluent Mandarin.
It's false if you are foreigner learning Mandarin.
For instance story is '故事‘ (gu4shi) - but if you swap the characters so you get '事故’ (shi4gu4) which means accident.
If you are Chinese so you know these words phonetically and it's enough to learn these two charters to understand both these words.
The situation is different if you are foreigner - if you know just 'gu4shi' so seeing 'shi4gu4' in no way hints into understanding the meaning - accident. So you will be able to read the word but you will have no idea what the word means unless you also learned the word accident.
As a last but not least we shall not mix up characters and words.
If you know 100 characters so you can built much more than 100 words ...
Chinese is a language in which were, are and will be written poems, philosophical tractates and also the technical and science books and reports allowing China to fly to universe.
I do not think anything wrong with the fact that somebody does not like China and/or Chinese. But before making bold statements about the topic the person does not know it's recommendable to do your homework - at least if te person claims to have education ...
Hotwater:
Now this is a bold, wrong and typical butt-hurt Chinese statement Janosik!
"I do not think anything wrong with the fact that somebody does not like China and/or Chinese. But before making bold statements about the topic the person does not know it's recommendable to do your homework - at least if te person claims to have education ..."
Sorrel has been posting here a long time and you're wrong in saying she does not like China or Chinese. Your statement is typical of a lot of Chinese people who on reading something they think is critical of China get deeply offended.
She's correct in a lot of what she's written. I've read government figures that suggest 30% of Chinese can't speak or read Putonghua properly (my MIL being a prime example. She's illiterate & can't speak Putinghua, only speaking her local dialect). Of course the situation is getting better with younger generations who are taught in Putonghua at school & hopefully speak their own dialect/language at home
Janosik:
@Hotwater,
What is butt hurt when saying that Sorrel apparently does not have a clue about Chinese but still dares to make strong and wrong statements?
Mind to elaborate a bit more on that?
I do not know (and also do not really care) if she likes China or not - leave it in here good hands - but if she claims to be educated person so I would recommend to change the approach and gather enough information.
It would be so easy to ask any foreigner speaking Chinese how the things work.
You claim you speak Chinese - in that case you must realize that in majority parts of China (other than Guangdong and Fujian) you will probably understand majority of the people are saying even if they use their own dialect.
On top of that your MILF probably is not a person under 40, right?
Yes, many old people in the South, West and Central China are illiterate or half literate - but that's usually not the case anymore.
My job takes me all over the China and so far i really had just few problems getting around with Mandarin.
Shining_brow:
Once again, J, you're writing pure crap!
I've known MANY Chinese who admit that they can NOT understand different dialects!
In a tonal language with limited consonantal options, those tiny pronunciation differences end up being HUGE barriers!
I use the 11-41 example. If I'm getting confused because the speaker is not using standard putonghua, then we are not communicating! Just because I figured it out doesn't mean we understand each other!
Linguistically, many of the 'dialects' of Chinese are actually different languages. Cantonese is NOT a dialect of Mandarin - they are two different languages. And Hokkien is another, etc etc.
As for your BS about the distinction between characters and words... yeah, do actually know this! We're not stupid, and we're not ignorant. No-one ever said (or suggested, or even implied) that 4000 characters is the equivalent of 4000 words! that would be as idiotic as saying you only need to know 23 letters to be able to read a newspaper in English!
Yes, poetry will still be written in Chinese - by Chinese! So will some philosophical treatises. And scientific and academic papers. BUT... for the last 2, you can guarantee that for China to advance technologically etc, then someone has first mastered English, before translating into Chinese... it will be incredibly rare for non-Chinese to be writing (good) poetry in Chinese. Nor philosophy. (so rare, in fact, that when it does happen, people will gasp and say "Oh, your Chinese is good"... and then wait for minor mistakes to blast them)
Janosik:
@Shining
You know what Shining? I would recommend you firstly to learn other language except of English.
Then you my get different perspective - same with Sorrel.
That what you say/write is simply nonsense.
When Chinese say they do not understand the other dialect (provided this dialect isbased on Mandarin) then they actually say 'I do not 100% understand what a person says'.
But it's a bit difficult to explain to a person who spent several/many years in China ad still did not bother to learn the language ...
No offense meant - just saying you may not have the ability to comprehend the argument (similar to xinyu'ren' - may be xinyu'dongwu' would fit better...)
Shining_brow:
你为什么认为我不会讲中文？我知道不太好,但是....
Personally, I've studied about 7 languages. Sorrel has also got a few under her belt (AFAIK).
And, again, your 'argument' MAKES NO SENSE! Whether or not we know the language in question, we DO know about China.
My Chinese friends tell me that they don't understand the dialects. AND linguistic research says that many of these dialects should actually be classified as separate languages, because MOST OTHER PEOPLE don't understand them either. They are, by definition, mutually unintelligible!
As for specific, actual dialects of mandarin (which is now the FIRST mention of that specificity!!!) Then there is still confusion, and a LOT more negotiation of meaning involved. Take Dutch and German, for example. Considered separate languages, but they can make each other out (mostly).
You seem to be deliberately confusing the subjects of demographics, linguistics, and (Chinese) language. You are now trolling...
And - lastly - yes, you do mean offense! My ability with any language has ZERO bearing on understanding linguistics, or understanding when someone says "I have no idea what they're saying".
