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Posts: 5156

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Q: Do you have less respect for Confucius?

That post about reporting broken equipment and then being blamed for it got me thinking. That 'principle' was one of many  flawed Confucianisms along with if you offer to help someone it's because you caused their situation.  Not counting the sexism which was prevalent in all past civilizations, many of his ideas just seem plain stupid. Can anyone put forward some of his ideas that were actually good?

6 years 21 weeks ago in  Transport & Travel - China

 
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Shifu

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Such a good and important topic. This one from quora is so good that I am posting excerpts from it.

 

"The Confucian Canon, often referred to as a code of conduct rather than a proper religion, is essentially an instruction manual for cult leaders and dictators on how to morally blackmail the people into obedience. Hence the absence of universal concepts of freedom, individualism, and human rights (although there's a lot in it about human responsibilities, like filial piety, obedience, dependency) in China.

 

:-[this is the problem with Confucianism--it is a eunuch's philosophy, all the virtues he said were good, but everything he said worked around a sensitive topic, dictatorship. They were more like 'how to live happily as part of the cattle, to use your apt description in another post'.  Is it any different in 2017?  I don't see much. Say again, how and where does Liu Xiao Bo die?  Where is his wife?]

 

In fact, it takes forever to establish the rule of law in China precisely because Confucius believed that coercing people with a sense of obligation, shame and "face" works just as fine, with the unenviable consequences that the people of China, in Hegel's words, "cherish the meanest opinion of themselves, and believe that they are born only to drag the car of Imperial Power."

 

:-[Ahhhhh.......FACE.....]

 

Not a few China experts seem to suggest that the troubled Communist Party of China under Xi Jinping, instead of dashing into an unknown future (of liberal democracy and Westernization, perhaps?), may want to revive Confucianism in order to justify its authoritarian grip on power. As I said, Confucianism works fantastic at that: The Confucian ideal of a government run by supreme human beings –the junzi- with supposedly superior moral values (not dissimilar to Plato's fascist 'Philosopher Kings') is possibly the greatest corruption of all."  https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-primary-criticisms-of-Confucianism

 

Someone introduced the term de-education to me a couple of days ago, saying with all the slogans, chanting, those 'honest, justice, civilised......' words you see everywhere you go, posters posted by CCP, it can create the opposite effects, people hate them (those words/concepts).  I searched for de-education but found only this. Still, quite interesting. Long article though.  

 

 http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2014/03/13/the-de-education-of-america

 

 

LastTargarean:

Wait, Who called the philosopher-kings fascist? Some one missed the entire point of The Republic...

6 years 21 weeks ago
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earthizen:

Ahhh, I didn't see that bit. Yeah, I never thought of The Republic that way. Plato discussed one thing that was critical that Confucius missed, the immortality of the soul. This added dimension (spirituality) makes the dialogue far more evolved than Confucius enunch's philosophy. It is the difference between 3D and 2D.  Huge, huge differences.

6 years 21 weeks ago
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mike168229:

A well thought-out argument and very true.

6 years 21 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Exactly

6 years 21 weeks ago
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6 years 21 weeks ago
 
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Posts: 310

Governor

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Can't have less than 0. Clearly I have western bias, but compare to the great philosophers and there is no comparison.

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6 years 21 weeks ago
 
Posts: 2231

Shifu

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Such a good and important topic. This one from quora is so good that I am posting excerpts from it.

 

"The Confucian Canon, often referred to as a code of conduct rather than a proper religion, is essentially an instruction manual for cult leaders and dictators on how to morally blackmail the people into obedience. Hence the absence of universal concepts of freedom, individualism, and human rights (although there's a lot in it about human responsibilities, like filial piety, obedience, dependency) in China.

 

:-[this is the problem with Confucianism--it is a eunuch's philosophy, all the virtues he said were good, but everything he said worked around a sensitive topic, dictatorship. They were more like 'how to live happily as part of the cattle, to use your apt description in another post'.  Is it any different in 2017?  I don't see much. Say again, how and where does Liu Xiao Bo die?  Where is his wife?]

 

In fact, it takes forever to establish the rule of law in China precisely because Confucius believed that coercing people with a sense of obligation, shame and "face" works just as fine, with the unenviable consequences that the people of China, in Hegel's words, "cherish the meanest opinion of themselves, and believe that they are born only to drag the car of Imperial Power."

 

:-[Ahhhhh.......FACE.....]

 

Not a few China experts seem to suggest that the troubled Communist Party of China under Xi Jinping, instead of dashing into an unknown future (of liberal democracy and Westernization, perhaps?), may want to revive Confucianism in order to justify its authoritarian grip on power. As I said, Confucianism works fantastic at that: The Confucian ideal of a government run by supreme human beings –the junzi- with supposedly superior moral values (not dissimilar to Plato's fascist 'Philosopher Kings') is possibly the greatest corruption of all."  https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-primary-criticisms-of-Confucianism

 

Someone introduced the term de-education to me a couple of days ago, saying with all the slogans, chanting, those 'honest, justice, civilised......' words you see everywhere you go, posters posted by CCP, it can create the opposite effects, people hate them (those words/concepts).  I searched for de-education but found only this. Still, quite interesting. Long article though.  

 

 http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2014/03/13/the-de-education-of-america

 

 

LastTargarean:

Wait, Who called the philosopher-kings fascist? Some one missed the entire point of The Republic...

6 years 21 weeks ago
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earthizen:

Ahhh, I didn't see that bit. Yeah, I never thought of The Republic that way. Plato discussed one thing that was critical that Confucius missed, the immortality of the soul. This added dimension (spirituality) makes the dialogue far more evolved than Confucius enunch's philosophy. It is the difference between 3D and 2D.  Huge, huge differences.

6 years 21 weeks ago
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mike168229:

A well thought-out argument and very true.

6 years 21 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Exactly

6 years 21 weeks ago
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6 years 21 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1263

Shifu

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I could not have less respect for the doctrine that has produced a culture that is so determined not to evolve.

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6 years 21 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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They didn't name him Confused for nothin' ! no

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6 years 21 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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SIMPLETON ME...      History is a great thing, something we have learned from.   used to be every century (or so)     today it is every day ( or so)    I like Confucious stuff. some inciteful  simple stuff.  I have great respect for Confucious....   amazing insight for his time. Todays world is just a bit a bit different (agree?)   comparing the past to the present is  not a right thing to do...  the past is the past...  move on...  live and learn...   tomorrow, I will be a Martian from Venus.

Englteachted:

Give me some examples of his insight?

6 years 21 weeks ago
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earthizen:

Your happiness is achieved via extreme selfishness. Apparently you don't give a damn if the entire 7 billion of earthings live in hell as long as you are not one of them.  This is the message that comes through in your other me-me-me posts on ecc.  I don't see this as something immoral but it is neither something worthy of bragging about nor respectable. This is just a typical taker mentality.

6 years 21 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

What makes a great philosopher is that their ideas are timeless, not just fit for the time they lived

6 years 21 weeks ago
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6 years 21 weeks ago
 
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