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Q: Do you think learning Chinese makes you more or less tolerant to China?

9 years 41 weeks ago in  Teaching & Learning - China

 
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Haha both 

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9 years 41 weeks ago
 
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For me, less. One thing is seeing people act like pigs, but hearing them constantly blurt out racist crap is another thing. 

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9 years 41 weeks ago
 
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It definately makes me more less tolerant to China. 

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9 years 41 weeks ago
 
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Much less, before when I didn't understand anything i was ignorant, nice to people who were probably talking bad about me right in my face.

 

Now that I understand almost everything I wear earphones with music on when going out simple to not hear them talking about me.

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Much more tolerant.

Life is that much less frustrating being independent, so that free up space to get pissed about other stuff.

Also, before i spoke chinese , i was always so mad when they spoke about me because i was certain is was smack they were talking. After i spoke chinese i realized that chinese really have the minds of an 8 year old. And all the horrible ahit i was certain theu were saying turned out to be along the lines of, hes so white! His feet are big! Handsome! Rarely unless booze is involved is it negative

Scandinavian:

"chinese really have the minds of an 8 year old" classic tolerance :) 

9 years 41 weeks ago
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Robk:

I agree with Mike. You assume Chinese are saying the worst shit about you but in reality... the are dopey as hell lol. 

 

They only really talk smack when they are boozed up, in a large group and feel it is a good time to show mother China how much he wants to defend her from the foreign devils. But most of them time... they just make random childish comments. 

9 years 41 weeks ago
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Both

Although i am still a basic speaker, i can make myself understood.

My listening is better.

That is where it is a blessing and a curse:

Yes, i can understand my friends and they appreciate how challenging I find speaking and listening, and also the s*** that all the shops shout out at passing customers, and the rubbish comments that are made by people when they think you can't understand them.

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Really good question, Humbug.

 

I think a lot of expats (myself formerly included) become jaded about the society they live in without making much of an effort to communicate. Being contemptuous towards people without knowing what they think or say is unreasonable.

 

Learning Chinese allows you to perceive a bit more depth or humanity in some people, which may save you from the notion that you live in a nation of automatons. Not ever talking to anyone will result in a rather dim understanding of the society you live in, based largely on assumptions. You can’t expect Chinese people to open up if you don’t speak their language.

 

Speaking Chinese will win you some respect, which will make you more inclined towards interaction in general. Asking about unfamiliar Chinese words is a really good way to integrate yourself into conversations, and often leads to interesting discussions.

 

I would, however, like to address one statement which I've heard numerous times in the past after criticising any aspect of China:

 

"You don't understand Chinese culture because you can't speak Chinese."

 

Bollocks.

 

The reason a person can't understand Chinese culture is that it doesn't exist. At least, not the vague, positive, sentimental notion of “culture” that Chinese people refer to. Maybe China had culture in the past --- and maybe it did include tea ceremonies, traditional gowns, calligraphy, poetry, Lao Zi, Buddhism and some understanding of moral virtue --- but that's not what China is now. China is an ultra-materialistic, ultra-shallow, culture-less, non-philosophical, moral and spiritual vacuum run by incompetent people. Understanding more Chinese words does not soften the experience.

 

One negative aspect of learning Chinese is that the majority of discussions I overhear are mind-numbingly predictable and repetitive. Chinese people on the whole seem to have a very small active vocabulary compared to Australians. I am by no means an accomplished Chinese speaker, and yet I still find most conversations I overhear incredibly basic, familiar and pointless - seemingly for the sole purpose of making noise. Silence can lead to introspection, which I guess is why Chinese people avoid it.

 

Additionally, I am now aware of occasional mockery (and generally dim-witted observations) from Chinese people in my vicinity. And resentful statements from Chinese boys when I am in public with a Chinese girl.

 

When I first came to China, I loved not being able to understand what anyone was saying. Despite the constant, inescapable noise, I felt blissfully peaceful not being able to interpret other people's stupid conversations. I sometimes long for a return to that simpler time.

 

On the whole, I think that long-term expats should learn Chinese, in order that they feel integrated, and in order that their perceptions are not just assumptions. A lot of negativity about Chinese society is due to a feeling of outside-ness. This is partially the result of China's retardedly self-important and exclusionary worldview, but partially from a lack of effort on the part of expats.

 

masonk:

”When I first came to China, I loved not being able to understand what anyone was saying. Despite the constant, inescapable noise, I felt blissfully peaceful not being able to interpret other people's stupid conversations. I sometimes long for a return to that simpler time.“

 

That's exactly how I feel. It was a lot easier getting by 5 years ago when I first came here in contrast to now after learning Chinese, whenever I go out I feel like a bit of a target. This is often the case when I'm with my misses, constant staring and pointing and the occasional "look! his girlfriend is white! isn't that strange for a Chinese guy?" remark.

 

Just got back from Oz last week and I'm really not sure whether staying in China is worth it anymore. I kind of find it that people here don't take me seriously when I speak Chinese and automatically assume that I must be a local (I'm not Chinese), done nothing but wonders for me in job interviews *hint of sarcasm*... But yeah, I reckon after learning Mandarin things definitely can become harder for yourself (depending on individual circumstances). There are plenty of positives that come from learning the language though, as you have already noted.

9 years 41 weeks ago
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Both, but generally more tolerant. It's just like others here said, when you understand nothing you're oblivious.

 

When you understand a little you only know enough to misinterpret what people are saying and I would usually take it the wrong way.

 

When you understand more you realize people may be talking about you but it's not derogatory, although it's often misinformed or a huge generalization. It might piss you off a little but it's not  a big deal.

 

By the time you understand more you have been here long enough, and through studying the language understand more of the culture, to understand that mostly people are just trying to reach out and be friendly in their own cultural way.

 

There will still be the occasional piece of racist shit who will try to ruin your day but I usually don't hold that against China. Or at least not for long.

 

At least that's how it is, and was, with me.Others may differ.

humbug:

Haha what you're describing is exactly the process I've gone through when learning Chinese...first going from blissful ignorance, to defensiveness, to laughing it off. 

 

I think on the whole it has made me more tolerant ,and allowed me to engage and have better friendships with Chinese people. It's much easier to be understanding of attitudes that drive me mad when people who I genuinely care about display certain traits.

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I can understand the general topic of a conversation. From what I get, people tend to mention their experiences, but they won't look for an explanations. Yesterday, dinner with several people. Nice fellows, all with some educations, they travel abroad, etc. they mention the "bad weather", an euphemism for the current increase in air pollution in Suzhou. It's mentioned quickly. But then, the discussion moves on to something unrelated. No attempt to talk about the possible causes or remedies. It was like this for all topics. Why ? They don't like topics without consensus ? They don't like debate ? It make them sad ? They feel powerless ? To get this, I wish I could talk to understand better. I can only talk like a retarded village idiot in Mandarin, so I could not really interact.

 

I think I would have a deeper insight of things here, if I could actively dialog. But talking Mandarin won't turn the society I see into something different. It won't make a good education accessible, it won't create a civil society, etc.

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Yes, I think it makes life easier. 

 

I find it very satisfying when I am in an elevator or something and some Chinese will come in and start talking about me in Chinese. I immediately turn and look at them like... "I know you are talking about me...". 

 

Then they look at each other and say something like "Do you think he understands?" and I answer to them "Yes, I understand." Then they go into face saving mode and laugh hysterically. 

 

But then I leave quickly because they want to start asking 10 000 questions. I just like that moment... but you can see it in their eyes they feel like complete idiots. And maybe they will keep it in mind that the next foreigner may understand them too... so they should STFU.

Even if a foreigner DOESN'T know Chinese 99% of the time they know when someone is talking about them through body language. Many Chinese are pretty stupid to think a foreigner can't pick that up (like Chinese are somehow so mysterious they elude us). And I am pretty sure like 95% of foreigners know the words "wai guo ren" or "lao wai"...

Chinese can be huge ass hats at times.  

coineineagh:

i want your final paragraph printed in Chinese on my new business cards!

9 years 41 weeks ago
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Not sure if my level of understanding warrants an opinion in this case: I only know a few hundred words vocabulary, rudimentary grammar and am unable to understand most questions posed to me. But the cultural vacuum Samsara described is evident through body language and minimal understanding already. My motivation to learn more Chinese quickly waned. As utilistic Chinese would say: There's little to be gained from it, so why do it?

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9 years 41 weeks ago
 
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It does, since you have almost no hope of understanding the ins and outs of the way Chinese people think without knowing the language they think and speak in.

 

 I wouldn't even try living in another country without knowing at least some basics of communication, not just because of the hardships you'd face on the ground, but also because I'd be sure to never learn anything about the place. 

 

For some issues that sound just plain retarded in English, when we hear or see them in Chinese, they become more acceptable.  I don't know why this is. Maybe we have a more open and accepting mind when communicating in a foreign language.  English is a completely logical language, but Chinese doesn't have to be all the time.  Take a look at  Mo Zi and compare his writing to any other philosopher.  His writing was literally A, to B, to C, extremely logical, and very very weird.  Almost like what you'd expect to see in English.    

 

Point being, different languages seem to have different personalities to them, and by learning Chinese, you can start to see why some things are the way they are at the very least.

 

hunana:

English is a completely illogical language!  We have so many exceptions to grammar rules it's crazy. Since teaching it I've gotten a newfound respect for anyone who masters it. 

9 years 41 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Most languages in the world are equal in their balance of logical and illogical grammar. Chinese is no more exception than English. Both have their exceptions and wierdnesses. Both can be manipulated by talented sophists, and both are composed of many words of fluid meaning that can be manipulated and twisted.

9 years 41 weeks ago
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Shifu

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I'm a translator.

 

Fortunately I work in 4 languages, including mandarin, which allows me some room to refuse whatever comes from sino-chinese clients.

Whenever I make this mistake, in any domain, it means for me the beginning of long and boring hours trying to decipher the absurd babbling of whoever was in charge of praising this or that product, introducing this or that event, or whatever else. And those people sure get paid by the superlative. And Chinese sure is a fucking rich language when it comes to glorifying stuff to an absurd degree (one thing that I can't blame mainland for, let's be fair).

 

Source documents are usually full of copypastas and the bare minimum is seldom done so the final result is understandable. Even in more creative domains, like video games, localization gets boring to hell, because all the lore and stuff is usually a dull mishmash made by people who just don't have the necessary culture to make a barely acceptable adaptation of whatever successful title they are ripping.

Working with the corporate world means getting documents filled with made-up slogans, exagerations, or simply blatant lies that careless employees forgot to harmonize throughout the whole booklet.

I work slow, not because of an excessive difficulty, but mostly because the boredom is too much for my attention span.

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9 years 41 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I have found my tolerance hasn't changed much. I can't carry a conversation, but I can overhear some disparaging remarks.  I really don't think the Chinese are any more racist than people in my country.  They make racist remarks as often as people in other countries do. what seems to be bad is the sexist side. Women must follow cultural norms while men don't have to especially if they have money.

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Hi, this is my experience. I spent 15 years in Vietnam, and today i can speak Vietnamese read and understand 99%, but finally i regret, because the best years in Vietnam was the first 2 years when i was not able to understand the local language and just understand some important and  easy words like thanks you, hello etc... Now i work in China, i use English at office (not my native language) and after 6 month here, I already learn a few words and phrases. But as i saw that Chinese people and culture are quite similar than in Vietnam,  I will stop my learning now... And still want to keep the Magic... See their way to drive a car, and that you look the TV in China, you can quickly understand that it will be very difficult to match their life style and culture... But for me China is ok so far, I still keep the magic of the new comers, and it's fine like this.

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9 years 40 weeks ago
 
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Hi, this is my experience. I spent 15 years in Vietnam, and today i can speak Vietnamese read and understand 99%, but finally i regret, because the best years in Vietnam was the first 2 years when i was not able to understand the local language and just understand some important and  easy words like thanks you, hello etc... Now i work in China, i use English at office (not my native language) and after 6 month here, I already learn a few words and phrases. But as i saw that Chinese people and culture are quite similar than in Vietnam,  I will stop my learning now... And still want to keep the Magic... See their way to drive a car, and that you look the TV in China, you can quickly understand that it will be very difficult to match their life style and culture... But for me China is ok so far, I still keep the magic of the new comers, and it's fine like this.

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9 years 40 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I am sitting in restaurant, order some food.

Than waiter come around and I ask for coke, he brings, I say Xie xie.

Than he brings me food, I say Xie xie. then he go back in the kitchen and talk to others while they surprised and laughing. that laowai always say xiexie , hahaaa.

 

Okay, after 8 years, I should praise both times, when I did not understand nothing, and now, when I am able to talk a bit and hit them back with some spicy comments.

 

 My friend, who brings me to China, said often " Do not try to understand " and he is right, there is no way to understand even with language knowledge. Most BS calling "too many chinese people" and we have no way to solve it. Like yesterday conversation, we come to the point :

 

he " You do not know how is difficult to manage 1,5 bilion people. They need more rice and vegetable..."

me " So why do you need build more and more residental buildings on places where they grow vegetable ? "

he " Because, in Chinese culture, if you have house, means can have family. If no house, no family "

me " But there is millions of empty houses which many people can not buy because are so expensive "

he " I know what you mean. this is china "

 

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9 years 40 weeks ago
 
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I ignore them at every possible opportunity. Almost everything about them annoys me. I really just want to get away from them in hopes of not being infected by this horrible crowded way of life.

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9 years 40 weeks ago
 
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Ho Man this is really rude..., Can you share some experience?

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