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Q: Do you think they WANT white monkeys here?
I know I criticized conspiracy theorists before...and most of those turned out to be the same troll. But hear me out;
Do you think that China, at least on some level, WANTS the western people to be losers?
Talk to older (30s+, educated/talented not ignorant trash) people here and they generally have a fairly strong opinion of westerners. A general sense that, deserved or not, we're smart and know what we're doing. A lot of these people came up through western companies and at one time or another reported directly to a western person who they may have admired and sought to emulate.
Contrast that with today, lot more cultural chauvinism. A lot more younger people saying that all westerners here are trash and should go home.
The ratio of western professionals/managers/executives to kindergarten teachers has dropped sharply. I'm not making a value judgement of who is "better", but one type stands out more as what Chinese tend to aspire to and the other they can't really relate to the motivation behind. (where's their sense of adventure??) So fewer people grow up with that awe of the west and see us as part of the engine of China's prosperity; instead they see a white person as a bum/freeloader.
Maybe that's intentional, or at least an appreciated consequence of their work visa policies. It gets harder and harder every year for professionals, including myself probably, to get our viss's renewed. I haven't had any problems yet, because I work for a really big company, but it could become an issue at any renewal.
Yet anybody that wants to work in a kindergarten can get a visa approved with pretty much no questions asked.
I think that the powers that be are at the very least quite happy to have the current generation of locals grow up seeing westerners as people who exist only to serve the edutainment needs of Chinese children; not bosses, advisors, or business stakeholders that you report to.
Why do you think those "White person does absolutely anything vaguely wrong" stories are so popular here? They want a bunch of boorish jerks here proving "See? We're better than them!"
AND: the word is coming down the vine that English may also soon be banned/"discouraged" from the curriculum in kindergartens too.
The current President is a hard-line traditionalist who has already stated that he wants to "discourage" western ideals and mentality in China. With the ever-impending bubble-burst looming, the powers that be are afraid of another
T2 happening. Get rid of the "meddling" foreigners now, tightly control the whereabouts and movements of those remaining, add more armed police to the streets of major cities (under the auspices of ensuring public safety)...stage some "non-Chinese" against Chinese violence and...I've speculated too much.
I've always maintained that China is for the Chinese. China will never be a cosmopolitan country. We're simply gnats that have been tolerated and that tolerance is coming to an end.
coineineagh:
I've seen a lot of that staged stuff on the news; some of it is too obvious to anybody who asks questions. But I get into arguments with my wife for making the slightest suggestion of scrutinizing news reports and making simple enquiries before forming an opinion. If that's the reception I get at home, I shudder to think how average Chinese would react if we tried to encourage rationality. Their capacity for self-delusion is impressive, but that also means the dark reality of the situation might be even scarier.
expatlife26:
I remember when I first got here they would talk about how it was unfair that China can't win a noble prize.
It was always..."China should get a prize too!" and not "let's make a scientific breakthrough"
Nobody remembers Jonas Salk as a guy that won a prize, he cured polio.
He actually did NOT win a prize apparently, but he deserved one for being the best Jonas Salk he could be!
ironman510:
I disagree, Chinese English teachers on all levels suck, only 2% got an actual English speaking skill that's fluent.
Teaching jobs, training centers and kindergartens are safe forever.. They'll become more stricter on visa's, BUT we'll always be needed because Chinese need to do business to make their economy run. Without English 10 years later no one will care about Chinese business.
I do see us being hit hard by the bubble though..
I have another answer to the question "Do you think that China, at least on some level, WANTS the western people to be losers?"
It's not China.
It's Europe, as far as I'm concerned.
I disagree a bit! At my Public School, Chinese English teachers don't speak or understand English.
When we talk, I always ask: 'Do (did) you understand?' Answer is always 'yes' (face).
I've listened English class of Chinese teacher in Grade 6. She spoke whole class Chinese! Whole 40'.
I compared her class in China, with me being Chinese teacher in London. How UK students will learn Chinese, if I speak whole class English? UK students all speak English.
There is huge lack of Chinese English teachers in China. Till China won't fill that gap, we'll have plenty to do in China.
That can turn around only if Chinese will move English language from being 2nd offical language in China.
Sinobear:
The question is not whether English is important or not: International business, science, (real) medicine, research, aeronautics, IT...all the fields that require a certain level of English to excel internationally in.
It's about China being able to control its own destiny (and its own people).
Historically, there's been many a leader who has studied in the west, rose to power then turned against the very principles that they were taught. Ghandi was anti-English at the beginning because he thought it was a tool of oppression. Only later did he realize that it could be a unifying tool.
A storm is brewing and we tumbleweeds will be the first to get blown away.
Of course. We're employed in a long term scheme to improve the relative image of Chinese, and paint all western foreigners as incompetent, lazy and privileged. Blacks and non-western foreigners are caricatured as opportunistic beggars. You see, Chinese ARE incompetent; they're too busy with facesaving to engage in real adult concerns. With all this emphasis on appearances, the best they can do is *portray* themselves as virtuous and gifted, and do the opposite for all non-Chinese. LOOKING GOOD precludes the possibility of learning and BECOMING GOOD, because images of perfection must be maintained. China is a mismanaged nation of childish lilliputters, and we're just unlucky Gullivers who they managed to ensnare in their net. We can try to communicate, cooperate and demostrate kindness, but the majority of Chinese live in their own isolated world. It will take time and patience to get through to them, we are putting ourselves at significant risk all the time because the housing bubble isn't the only illuson waiting to be shattered, and success is not guaranteed.
expatlife26:
There are really talented, decent people here...but I do honestly sincerely believe that close to 100% of them are in the big international cities that I know you personally dislike.
coineineagh:
I don't dislike the cities, though I dread being shunned and looked down on by fellow expats when I reach out to them, simply because I'm an ESL teacher. But rumours of snob communities in the big cities are based solely on what I read online; I've yet to experience it myself. I'm more stuck in semi-urbanized area because of my job(s) and the proximity to my wife's hometown. If I were to make the move to a big city, I'd need a 20k salary just to make it worthwhile. But salaries on offer seem to be going steadily down.
expatlife26:
I did have bad experiences feeling shunned by non ESL expats...but mostly in sense that the girls I was interested in (european ones) saw an ESL teacher from Anhui to be a really bad dating prospect. People weren't like...openly laughing at me of course, they just weren't impressed. And I don't blame them because what I was doing was not impressive in any way. I was insecure about that because i'm quite competitive and really didn't like the idea of the girls I liked being "out of my league." It was more me feeling bad than them making me feel bad.
Other than dating, the divide boils down to economics. If you're making <8-10K and used to eating 6-10 RMB meals at local places, then 50RMB for a burger or a proper pint of decent beer is gonna seem really steep. BUT...if you want to make friends with professional expats you have to be willing to chip in. It's not like they're openly rejecting you for being poor it's just that someone like 2009 Me couldn't really afford to hang out all the time without spending 100% of my salary on networking. Which I ended up doing. Worth it.
I dont know if i agree. Sounds pretty conspiracy theory to me which means youll get alot of support on this site.
I think as teachers and surrounded by teachers there is an idea that you are lazy and useless and wasting whatever talent you may possess. Right or wrong that same idea is the same in many places not just here. Even on this site there are contant posts about teachers persecuting their own. Even tje most proud teacher probably feels a little reserved when they go home and talk about what they do. Im not saying its right or wrong but you can at least see why chinese would have that idea.
From my experience foreigners in the chinese business world are still quite respected. As to your point. Business people in their 30s respect and emulate while younger generation despises us. Could be a trend or perhaps young people everywhere are cocky and dicks not just china. Were getting older. It happens. I remember when i was a teanager. It royally pissed me off that all these girls wanted to nail black thugs or australians with their damn handsomeness and accents. I got over it. I equate it to that. Perhaps theyll get over it too. Till the next young punk generation i guess.
Lastly your point about the news articles involving laowai. Im not so sure China is sensationalizing anything. I have a feeling its us doing that damage. We all read the same china related sites and their job is to post these china related stories. I have many chibese friends who arent... How do i put this... Laowai lovers. Meaning theu dont exactly follow all things western. They have never heard of the vast majority of these stories. I want to divorce my wife because shes cheating on me with weibo. She doesnt hear about them till i tell her.
Point being that when you have a small group of people all getting their info from the same sources shit is gonna look alot bigger than it really is.
You cant really pay attention to the anti western sentiment on chinese forums. They are either wumaos or just dicks hiding behind a screen. Have you ever read the comments section in a chinese focused article on yahoo? Complete china bashing non stop. How come when we do these things its normal reasonable behavior but when chinese do it , it must be a secret communist government program to spite us?
expatlife26:
Yeah you know I don't think it is a plot to replace respectable suit-wearing gentlemen like myself with hung over shaggy kindergarten teachers.
I think it's more likely just a consequence of the way work visa policy is done. But a consequences they happen to like just the same.
coineineagh:
But let's face facts, here: There are 600.000 foreigners in a country of 1.300.000.000. This place is xenophobic, polluted, and inaccessible in so many ways. people who are here are either here for a job necessity or a relationship, and if we could have what we have here in another country instead, of course we'd go elsewhere. ilegal teachers and high salary businessmen alike, we all miss our homes, and little is done to make us feel welcome. or even respected as fellow humans. Don't dismiss everything because it smacks of conspiracy; the evidence is all around us. If you're saying people should share your conspiracy-allergy, then that will conflict with rationality, and then there's little difference between your take-home message and that of a wumao.
I saw some white monkeys in the jungle. So cool
icnif77:
@royce: How Iron got pic of your MIL? Seems very suspicious to me 
(to my tigeress below)
Can you spot me in 'my classroom'? with my 
GF (she) below:
Caters
Spotted: A snow leopard camouflaged against the mountain
Did you see them? One is strutting dead centre of the scene while a pal lounges to its right.
Cat: A snow leopard that is easier to spot
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-can-you-spot-legendary-3338153#ixzz2xioXqjtD
royceH:
Iccy....you sure can get your hands on some powerful shit out there!
icnif77:
@royce: I'm in LOVE! Stop insinuating anything!
P.S. Why you all let phill & hulk down VOTE me so hard? LOL
Why would they scheme that kind of a far fetched plan when they can't even get zebra crossings right.
It's not like they haven't been pushing to get the "white monkeys" out consistently for a couple of years now. They have.
Now here's their problem: they don't want "white monkeys" of course, they want "high profile investors", they want "top notch researchers" and they want "highly talented people". And they want them because they want to believe they are that kind of country, the one that sucks talents in, they want recognition from the rest of the world through tech advances, they want a ton of stuff they can boast about on TV or on figures. Didn't take them long to reveal their real face of arrogance, too bad it was still a little early for that.
But they're not getting them. It's not happening. People can read the news. We're all realizing the farce that is China.
Just how many real talents can a repressive, polluted and downright racist country draw on the long term? If you're here long enough, you'll realize that you're not to settle down, you're to being used until you get ditched, unless you have some special situation you might want to consider on the long run as well. You can't make any long term plan, and do you want to anyway, when the best money/luck can buy is a barricaded fortress from a zombie movie... sorry a "villa". Even visa laws are here to make goddamn sure you're always the bitch of someone during your stay.
Who in their right mind would say "this is where I want to be". Not even the Chinese themselves if I read the figures.
So yeah, China is just getting white monkeys, because that's the best it can hope for. They're exactly a match with the country they're in: not really able to do much, but available for bogus show and display.
PS: this is not to criticize ALL the people holding "white monkeys" jobs, nor to make them feel bad. Everyone makes mistakes, I know sometimes this started out differently and revealed to be a trap. Now everyone is aware of the education business in China before they come. I'm not criticizing you as persons.
juanisaac:
Yes, they want the highly skilled folks at 5,ooo R.M.B a month.
coineineagh:
I didn't know much about the education industry before I came. I just wanted to be with my wife, and she gave me the impression that teaching was a promising career. I thought at worst it would be like living in remote Africa, being the only white guy working in a school that needed a lot of help. turns out they didn't want any help at all. that's the thing: teachers who work here *could* offer improvements to the education system, but suggestions are not appreciated, problems aren't spoken about, and foreign experts are used as petting zoo attractions. http://space.echinacities.com/112751/blog/detail/1538
Visco8:
Well said Kim ~ totally agree with you, may I add the shitty wage..
I came into contact with this about a year ago. The uni I was working at let go a large number of the quality teachers in favor of hiring teachers from a program. The teachers did not have the quals to get a visa but through the program they were able to skirt the requirements. Many of them turned out to be ok teachers but why have requirements when you are not going to follow them?
I thought the school did it to save money but I later found out that the school paid the company what amounted a quarter more than what they paid us but the teachers were paid much less than us. They did this because someone knew someone
juanisaac:
I know what you mean. The county education bureau participated in bringing in good-will ambassador teachers from abroad. Schools were forced to take the teachers, even the ones that already had a foreign teacher. The schools protested, but the powers that be ram-rodded it though. So now some schools have two foreign teachers when they only needed one.
The bureau chief got a kick-back from what he paid the company.
At a zoo they might get rid of the excess animals, but they will still have some left for show and tell. Foreigners in China are just that. RIght now they are culling the herd, but they will leave a few around to amuse the visitors.
Unpopular opinion alert! But isnt it possible that no one is out to get us and well.... This is just all we deserve? Im speaking for western countries of course but for us. Weve had a pretty fair hand given to us and its up to us to make something out of it. So i dont like the atitude that the system here is holding us down. Perhaps the majority of us here just arent valuable.
You often see forums and posting, here especially, of how we deserve better, like executive positions are handed out like candy. Yet when you read the forums the best reason anyone can ever seem to come up with of why foreigners have value in China its always the same cliche. A different set of eyes or see things from a different persepective or some other bull like that.
Really ? Thats all you can think of? Well gee you must be corporate president material.
From reading these posts here there doesnt seem to be any more that people can do in China other than kindergarten. So you should probably be content with being the monkey.
I have a more of a you made your bed now sleep in it atitude i guess. But you guy go on and continue to blame the man if it makes you feel better.
icnif77:
I always work kiddies part-time. I enjoy lessons with babies. Don't feel monkey either! They are so 
resourceful and direct. They call me ye-ye, I call them niao-niao (kids always scream that when they need to piss
in hurry). Kids reply: 'meiyou niao-niao'.
Robk:
Well, if people do stay here, then yeah the sort of deserve what they get.
I agree with you that foreigners shouldn't add value to themselves simply because they consider themselves mannered, civilized, different or popular with some sort of fake celebrity status.
If they provide jobs in China, bring in foreign currency that helps China's growth then yes, I think they do have a say. If their country allows Chinese to become citizens (while we all know China does not), then I think they that is bullshit and we should complain to our government and the Chinese government.
In short, China overall does not really want foreigners here, it wants to exploit them but not integrate them at all. But oh well, that won't stop me from doing my thing.
expatlife26:
Impossible, that would mean that I am personally responsible for my successes and failures, rather than some sinister force outside my control.
NOW who is being naive?
icnif77:
My favorite lesson with 'niao-niao': 'stand-up', 'sit down', 'clap your hands (or turn around)' and 'give a hug to each other'.
I show them all moves with action, and laud repeating commands in the same time. TA follows me. At 'give a hug....', I hug TA.
Now, TA is outside on the break, me and kids alone repeat all 4 commands. At 'give a hug...' all 15 kids run toward me, and try to hug me. Falling over each other, pushing, screaming, trying to reach me.
I'm on my knees, laughing like a dog!
Apparently, it is very difficult to translate 'each other' in Chinese.
If I must do 'show lesson' for (new) parents, we always do 'hug' lesson. Hilarious!
I prefer to look at questions like these by experience and facts:
1) Can Chinese become citizens of other countries? - Yes.
2) Can we become citizens of China? - No.
3) Does China make it extremely difficult for foreigners to engage in occupations other than English teaching? - Yes, it does. There are laws that state companies should hire locals if there is the possibility of a local that can do the job instead of a foreigner.
4) Have you ever had the experience of a Chinese person trying to befriend you only to show you off like an expensive pet? - Yes, I have.
5) Do marriage visas restrict foreigners from working in China legally? - Yes, they do.
6) Is the visa system setup for foreigners short-term? Obviously, it is.
So I don't know about "White Monkey" or anything like that, but it is quite obvious they DO NOT want us here long term.
DrMonkey:
Another category is the white sorcerer ie. engineer/scientist from abroad, when there's no locals to be found for some business critical task.
My school turned down a black teacher with more qualifications than me, to hire me, someone without the appropriate qualifications. They knew I wasn't qualified, but they wanted that white face.
Yeah, they want white monkeys. To them, white monkeys are the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Money except through him. They worship money and whiteness, and it's to their own detriment.
Of course, I actually put the effort in, but still... they wanted me to be a white monkey only. They got me the "Z," despite my lack of qualifications, but I didn't accept it. I left since they tried to steal my passport and because they tried to cheat me out of my salary. Had they not tried to screw me, I'd have stayed.
PAY YOUR WHITE MONKEY, MORONS.
ironman510:
That's happened 3 times in my school. I hate seeing that. After all African Americans are native speakers..
Wow!!! This may be your experience, but my has been totally different. I have been here in China with the same company (Chinese company) for 5 years. I am paid great and given regular performance bonuses. My ideas and opinions are valued and usually implemented. My staff turnover rate is the lowest in a company of 8,000 people (around 6% annually) and I have yet to lose an employee in the top 25%.
My circle of friends is pretty small as I don't drink and find the bar scene pretty boring. I have a few foreign and Chinese friends that get together a couple times a month for dinner or travel. My son attends international school and is in his final year of high school. Overall, I feel I am treated better than most Chinese people by almost everyone I encounter.
DrMonkey:
Being a (competent) boss or a (skilled) specialist makes a huge difference in how people perceive you. As a univ. lecturer, okay, I felt close to the bottom of the food chain. Now working in privately-funded R&D, I'm apex predator :p
KimOnach:
Skilled technician folks are welcomed almost everywhere, and especially in China, where R&D with locals means Retro-engineer & Duplicate.
For the record I don't seriously think there is any kind of sinister, left-handed, plot to replace professional expats with ill-mannered bums. I've also had a pretty uniformly good experience working in a professional field here personally.
I do think the demographics have shifted though for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are now greater numbers of skilled local professionals capable of doing just as good work.
The net effect of this though on Chinese kids, is that they grow up seeing foreigners only there to serve them, not vice versa and that's a big generational difference.
Apparently they want white monkeys here - I see job positions (mainly teaching but others too) online frequently, in fact most foreigners are here for some sort of trade/business/work reason, not for fun or leisure or out of pure choice, no? (they'd head to SE Asia for that, cheaper and nicer). So they're voting with their money by bringing us here, I'd say. Also I've come across the "mooching foreigner" sentiment but I wouldn't bank too much on it, as it's some kind of Rush Limbaugh sentiment.
Also oftentimes the bad points of a place are just the natural flip-side to good things about it. It's not an immigration country, which is annoying on the one hand, but on the other hand it's certainly free of the effects of bad immigration policy playing out in parts of the west now.
Also the "freedom" of the place is nice, but the flip-side is you have to watch out for yourself as no one else is going to... (PS: avoid the gutter oil!)
I don't know what it is they want. Well, they do want to be recognised internationally as great and powerful. And they do want to ensure Nationalism reigns supreme, thereby promoting best chance of keeping the people down. But they definitely don't want the population to be able to speak English. Not even the English teachers can speak English.
I don't think they want anybody here other than themselves. As someone earlier said...China is for the Chinese.
But bad luck...I'm still here.
icnif77:
'cause they pay good'O2. Are you White? That's the latest 'trend' Q in China.
royceH:
Yeah, I'm white...very white now after having survived the winter. Yesterday I rode my bike in shorts and t-shirt and today I went to the beer shop in the same garb, plus sandals. The locals really looked at me. They're still wearing long trousers and a jacket of some sort despite it being 24 degrees! Chinese ppl are really rather strange.
Spiderboenz:
Seriously, what's with the O2? Every time I see it I read it as "Di-Ox(ygen)."
Personally I think its just economics: supply and demand. Companies and schools here are profit oriented. The supply of ESL teachers with degrees looks unlimited as more grads in the west want or need work experience. Hence the wages are declining and scam operations by recruiters are becoming the norm as business people in China take the opportunity to get rich quick. My answer to the question is "Yes, I think they WANT white monkeys here" but at a cheaper price. It is also perceived that white people speak better English. We know this is a fallacy but everything is about face in China. The vast majority of ESL FT are white. For those of us who are here for the long term this situation makes it more difficult for us especially when the visa issues are stacked against us. Most ESL are only here for a year. Many are in the the 1st tier cities and have that degree. I find degrees are pretty useless when it comes to ESL. But that's me; an old guy with 30 years business experience.
royceH:
I'm old too, Donny. 30 yrs experience in health, which included health education, and, by god, do these people need someone to educate them in this area!
Visa issue is upon me and who knows whether or not it'll happen...
Good point. Just decided, I'm leaving.
WCG:
One step at a time. In mediation stage right now. Got a wife waiting for a visa too. So, can't leave tomorrow! But, posts like this make me want to hold up a middle finger to the damn place as I'm getting on a plane.
If you define "they" I am sure you will get different and more precise answers.
