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Q: Does it annoy you that Chinese can't accept when they are wrong?
Face is the concept behind no being able to accept fault. For a thinking person, it is extremely annoying and frustrating. Many Chinese will simply not listen to foreigners and even if you prove them wrong... they will act like nothing happened.
Here are a few scenarios:
1) I am out in my wife's small village. They have internet but no wireless. I tell her that they should setup wireless so we can DL stuff on our phones or use a laptop. She calls the internet company, the girl tells her she can't do it. Her brother tells her she can't do it. So, she comes to me and says... it's not possible. I turn to her and her brother and laugh... and put up wireless internet in 5 minutes. They all use it, nobody admits they were wrong.
2) I am driving down the highway to my new apartment. I am with my wife's cousin and her friend. There is an on ramp to get over to my apartment complex. I ask the guy if he is from my city... he says he is... okay... I say... you should go up that on-ramp. He says... no need. I tell him, umm yes, you should. He drives straight and tells the others in the car that I was wrong and can just U-turn later. I just smile and keep silent. He keeps driving and tries to pull a U-turn... oops... a barrier... drives further... ooops another. I tell him in Chinese, this is why and laugh. He looks uncomfortable but says nothing... everyone else in the car is silent (I bet they are thinking, how is a foreigner right over a Chinese person? How is this possible?). He ends up finding a spot to pull a U-turn way down the BUSY highway... both wasting time and putting all riders in danger.
3) My wife and I locked ourselves out of our home due to a faulty lock one day. She calls a locksmith over to get the door open. I told her that she should have change the lock earlier as the key would stick and we had issues with it previously. She tells the locksmith what I said and he says "Foreigners, they always give advice AFTER something happens." Which made me both annoyed and laugh. But rather than argue, I just let him do his thing. Pounding on the door for about half an hour with a hammer... "This lock is awesome..." He says... I got tired of waiting and shove him aside. I kick the door open, smirk at him and then walk in to let my wife shoo him away.
4) My friend goes to buy some kitchen equipment for the restaurant he is opening in our city. He is an American guy and all the shop assistants start crowding around him while he starts asking questions. He asks "How often does this break down and can I buy additional parts now?" The shop assistant (thinking he is clever) tells my friend, "It breaks down when it breaks down... and you buy parts to fix it when it breaks down." The other shop assistants burst into laughter. My friend, obviously not amused... says back to him "So when I lose money because the machine you sold me breaks down and I don't have the spare parts I need to fix it... you will be the one to compensate me right?" That shut the guy up quickly.
In all these cases, nobody apologized for not being able to do their job or just being proven wrong. But at least I got some satisfaction out of showing them up. Anything like this ever happen to you? What do you do when you know you are right but a Chinese person just won't believe you or listen?
It sure does, so I always prepare evidence in advance and laugh first, not last.
It sure does, so I always prepare evidence in advance and laugh first, not last.
I'm thinking I should have prepared a nice phrase for these (all too often) occasions - "Your lack of willingness to take responsibility, and admit being wrong, is LOSING your face and respect in my eyes".
Either that, or be more blunt - "You have proven to me that I cannot trust you - EVER!"
coineineagh:
memorizing those two responses in Chinese would beawesome. but you'll just get blankface or tingbudong anyway.
Yeah it's stubbornness and a fear of losing face. No one likes being wrong, but the Chinese just a have problem with admitting when they're wrong, wasting more time and effort trying to prove they're not wrong.
Not all Chinese are like that...at least I'm not... I also know many don't...but yeah, it can be annoying, i know many Chinese, and even Taiwanese behave like that, but after all, they all have the same ancestors and it's not surprising.
It can comes down to face, as you know, face is very much related to family and friends, so if you are wrong, it's not you lose face for yourself, you lose face for the family and ancestors. So you can't be wrong, otherwise, you'll not just be laughed at, but be blamed by the whole family, even far away relatives that you've never heard of!
This can be very hard to be understood by westerners as you are more independent and family relationship can be a totally different concept to you.
Robk:
Hey Sponge,
Nice answer and I know that there are some Chinese that understand admitting fault actually earns you respect from others and is the only track for self-improvement.
But another pattern I have noticed is that Chinese are FAR less likely to admit fault to a foreigner in particular. When speaking with other Chinese, they are far more likely to do so.
So I don't think it is just the "face" concept at work, I think there is a bit of brainwashing and arrogance as well. You say a big part of "face" is not admitting fault so that your family/friends don't hear and get mad at you. But it doesn't change when you are alone with them.
Personally, I prefer to be wrong rather than being right. Why?
Because if you are right... so what... you proved something you already know. If you are wrong, you learn something new and that means you got a bit smarter that day.
If you are never wrong... aren't you eternally stuck in a limbo of stupidity?
SpongeBob:
The other reason can be Chinese are in general not humorous, so they can't really laugh about it and admit they are wrong. Humor is a really good fix of those embarrassing moments, but without it...they don't know how to release the embarrassments...except insist they are right...
Viki87:
That's completely bullshit.
You never apologized to me for having chatted with me for two years.
Everyday life: I just avoid counting on anyone for anything. Problem solved.
Pro life: I make sure everything that matters is said on record. The rest is just FWI. Poor planning on anyone's part will never constitute emergency on my part and this much is well known. Problem solved.
Personal life: I'd be the one to blame if I let anyone with such habits into my life. Problem never occurred.
coineineagh:
wish i'd thought of that in my personal life. patience can be a virtue, but also an exploitable gimmick.
Annoying, yes. It's an obstacle to do good work, and it builds unnecessary stress in relationships of any kind. It leaves little room to initiative, making people very risk-adverse and unwilling to take initiative and responsibilities. It makes the fews with responsibilities disproportionately overpowered (ie. the Chinese Boss stereotype).
Coping strategies ? Take the time to know you girlfriend before marrying her is the only thing I can think of. At work, it's a delicate balance. I try to not go apeshit over mistakes, and generously reward initiative (income & encouragements).
Another thing i have noticed is some chinese people find it really difficult to take blame. For example my chinese manager is consistently putting the blame on my chinese coworkers and making out that she's an angel, she's a nice woman but I once actually heard her telling my foreign boss that all of the shoddy looking firecracker decorations for spring festival were done by me just so she wouldn't take the blame for it. Of course my boss told me and laughed about it with me. I find this type of thing happens a lot here, it's always someone else's fault, don't get me wrong it happens everywhere but exceptionally in china! 
Robk:
Haha... yeah that happens a lot too. And goes hand in hand with not being able to admit fault. It doesn't matter what happens.. you are at fault because you were just there or an easy scapegoat.
A foreigner once wrote that some chick was staring at him as he she was riding down the street on an ebike. Instead of looking where she was going, she just kept on staring and rode into a gate or something. He said he just stood (from across the street) as she got up and she looked angry. Not at herself you see, but at him... as if his presence FORCED her to stare thus getting into the accident. So it is obviously his fault for being foreign lol.
Yup... 
dongbeiren:
Bosses and managers will always find a scapegoat who is lower on the hierarchy to blame - it is the duty of those lower down to kiss arse and give face to the bossman whether or not the bossman is a complete buffoon.
by refusing to accept the obvious and then being found out after stubbornly proceeding, Chinese people lose more respect in my eyes.
the number if times i have been told 'not to think too much' when obvious trouble-shooting prevents so many problems
admitting a mistake or laughing something off is not a weakness: i would have more respect for someone who can admit they are wrong.
Ultimately the sign of a good manager is one that takes responsibility and does not blame others for their own short-comings as a manager.
I don't know whether I would be annoyed or not. I have been here for four years but I have never yet met a Chinese that is wrong. Chinese people so clever.
philbravery:
there was a guy who thought he was vwrong once ....but he was mistaken
What annoys me is when people don't seem to care an iota about putting in the BARE MINIMUM of effort that would keep them from failing, and then do everything in their power to convince people that they did not fail. Sometimes, it seems that they put (significantly) more effort into lying about their screw ups, than they do into doing the very tiny things that it takes to not want to be a screw up.
It makes it utterly impossible for me to respect them. It's hard enough to not laugh in their faces sometimes.
Examples:
--those students who never come to class, and then embarrass themselves by telling the most embarrassing lies known to mankind when they realize that you will fail them. In my experience, these situations usually end with the student just begging you to pass them, and having the nerve to remind you that 'as you know, grades are very important to Chinese students!'
--those businessmen who just blatantly go out of their way to rip people off, and then tell obvious lies to cover for themselves. These types actually have the nerve to be offended when called a thief and a liar. If you are going to chose to be a dishonest person, at least own it.
--that co-worker who dicks around all day, screws up a project, and then cannot be reached. Does not remember the project or anything about it when located and questioned. Finally blames some mythical human being in some mythical department.
What kills me about these people isn't the obvious lying itself (living in China for over a month vaccinates you to that...but how EASY it is to not screw up in the first place. Come to class, don't be a criminal, write a few emails before naptime. It's as if certain people would rather lie to save their face than avoid a face-loss situation. And that is the mentality that makes me so glad I am getting out of here.
Robk:
Yup, they do put WAY more effort in to lying to cover up their failure than actually doing task. It's like everything is okay... it doesn't matter if they suck or mess up as long as nobody puts the spotlight on them...
But when they spotlight is on them... it's time to turn into an instant dramatic actor with the lamest excuses.
Example 4 is a weird one...like I think they were probably trying to avoid making it sound like it is likely to break. It sounds like your buddy was trying to be smart, realize that even if it's a decent quality item at a reasonable price that things still break and when he has HIS $ on the line he wants to be able to swap in a new roller part or whatever himself on the spot than lose any customers.
But then the shop people might be thinking it's a trick. Trying to get you to admit it's crap and it's going to break all the time so they can bargain the price down.
sucks trying to do anything in a place where people are generally untrustworthy. Your buddy is being reasonable and it just doesnt make sense to them. Even when they can make MORE money right this second selling the parts.
Tell me about it.
A few years ago, teaching gig, on my day off.
7:50 in the morning, still in bed, my phone rings, it's the so called manager.
"Where are you?! You get to teach by 8:00 in the morning today! (note the rudeness)
-Hello Alex, what are you talking about? Today is my day off. Are you sure it isn't another teacher you are looking for?"
...moment of silence, he realizes his mistake...
"I told you before, you agreed, now you come and teach! (starts making BS excuses)
-Wait, what? I don't remember you asking me anything, what class is that?
-I don't remember, but you agreed to it!
-When did you ask me already?
-Three days ago, I came to your office!
-Three days ago was my other day off, you must be mistaking me with someone else."
I hear him talking in Chinese with another employee annnnnddd... *click*, he hung up on me. Probably the other teacher arrived.
The man was rude to me, really aggressive talking, almost insulting, but never apologized for his mistake.
expatlife26:
God that's such strange behavior.
I totally get being mad if you think somebody is blowing off an engagement. There's nothing wrong by itself of him calling you up angry if you really aren't doing what you're supposed to be doing. Don't have to be a dick about it but the gist of "wtf? get your ass over here" is fine.
But then when it's showed that you aren't doing anything wrong there's nothing you can do but kinda laugh it off right? If I got all worked up angry at somebody and then suddenly deflated like that i'd probably burst out laughing compulsively.
F-ing creepy to just hang up like you never called. If you're gonna act that way you gotta own it!
RandomGuy:
Yeah right. I understand that he would be angry and stuff because whoever was supposed to be there by 7:30 in the morning didn't show up on time. But the least he can do after realizing that he fucked up would be a "oh, my mistake, this call wasn't meant for you, see you tomorrow." (I'm not asking him to bow and beg me for forgiveness), but no instead most Chinese people will keep digging their rabbit hole for the sake of saving face and appearing strong.
Such as BS culture, skinny feminine men playing the bullies and being complete dickheads because they fear being seen as weak and then in their turn bullied by other dickheads.
And because of very existing double standards, foreigners behaving in the same way most Chinese do will be told to fuck off back to foreignland if they aren't being run over by an angry mob before.
Shining_brow:
A) there's the obvious need for him to have apologised (which needs to be done at a later date - even if it means he loses face in the office... I do that. Sure, I may not be liked, but then, it's not my job to be liked.. it's to be respected for what I do).
B) 7:50 is not 8:00. If, as you suggest, the other guy just walked in, then he REALLY owes an apology!!!
Face is definitely one of the issues at stake. However, it's not just face that causes this type of behavior but also losing of power. To lose a position of power, especially to a foreigner is an insult by nature of their culture. Years and years of being taught that you must always be #1 and to do anything to gain and maintain that goal makes it a cultural behavior that is difficult to change. Admitting when wrong is both losing face and a loss of power. Both are frowned upon by the culture and isn't something non-chinese person can at first understand. It certainly doesn't make it right and from my experience it's extremely difficult to get a girlfriend or spouse to admit let alone change.
Shining_brow:
Not sure why you're getting the downs... must be the wumaos!
philbravery:
looks like the admin accounts have alined to give multiple down votes
yes it does piss me off
people dont admit they are wrong when they almost run you down when they drive there cars or ebikes
it happened yesterday I was out walking with my son and a guy hit me while trying to ride past me then gave me shit for it.blamed me for him riding into me.
The thing that annoys me most:
In my work, I come across many Chinese carrying out tasks in a stupid, dumbass manner. I point it out and tell them in a polite, diplomatic manner, a better, more efficient, less costly and less time consuming method. They have a try and say "you are so clever" then at the first opportunity, go back to the same stupid, dumbass method that they have always used.
RandomGuy:
Admitting that a Foreigner may be right over a Chinese is a massive loss of face and power in Chinese culture. I saw Chinese acquaintances crashing their business just because they refused to listen to my advice.
Englteachted:
RandomGuy, Fuck yeah, 2 schools are out of business simply because they didn't listen to the foreign teachers' simple advice about marketing.
Robk:
Ditto. I know a few schools that collapsed due to incompetent Chinese management that DID NOT listen.
Obviously a pattern here.
I found they have to be right. Even when they are wrong. They are the creators of alternative facts when proven wrong.
I found they have to be right. Even when they are wrong. They are the creators of alternative facts when proven wrong.
Huh
How many of you hear the words please and thank you?
i know there are Chinese words for them because I use them . but hardly hear it from my wife ....and what is thing you call apology?
philbravery:
A@RobK Have you had the customary pm from admin telling you that your post will be deleted because it is defamatory to Chinese?
Robk:
No, I think they just delete them here and there.
I go back to old posts and many of my comments have vanished.
