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Posts: 62

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Q: F-visa insted of Z-visa

I am an English Teacher in China.  I came here by F-visa. The requirtment company had to apply for my Z-visa after my arrival in China getting me to Hong Kong. But instead they recently told me that they are going to apply for  another F-vasa for another 60 days for me.  So I work here illegally. Why they do that and How I can solve my problem? Is it better to leave them and find another fair employer?

9 years 22 weeks ago in  Visa & Legalities - China

 
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I'm going to be blunt - Irinya, you're English is not much better than many students I currently teach, and worse than that of the local English teachers here. You're basic grammar is erroneous, and you're using words (when spelt correctly) which just aren't used appropriately. Actually, you come across as VERY Chinese in your writing!

 

So, I would have to ask, why should anyone hire you to teach when they have better here already, who they can pay much less for.

 

(as a certified IELTS examiner, I feel quite qualified to assess your language, and offer up this opinion!)

 

 

(FTR - no, I'm not in any way against NNES teaching my language - I do, however, expect those people to be damn good, especially for the most basic elements, and are better than the locals!)

expatlife26:

i am pretty sure she is not chinese in her english writing.

 

It looks very much how slavic language speakers tend to do english.

 

Read it in a slavic accent and it will sound very natural.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Ok. I can't really comment on Slavic L1 transfer, but I can on Chinese... and she's using words and structures that are also indicative of Chinese L2 English learners. 'adequate', "is expire", "some authors" (very Chinglish!!), "I don't ask you about me strength and weakness". All fairly stereotypical Chinglish.

 

Perhaps Putonghua is an off-shoot of a Slavic dialect :p (remember the Caucasians they found out west??)

9 years 22 weeks ago
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joshua73:

your*....

 

I think everyone should stop giving her feedback on her language skills...

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

She got hired by Chinese agency. I don't see a problem. Her English is blast for the recruiter. You aren't hiring her. She already has English teaching job.

Are we giving advices or lecturing on the free board? You could direct your complaint to Helen, and come back to the board with their feedback.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

Thank you who support me and intercede for me. But if people feel satisfaction by disgracing others the only one thing I can do is to sorry them. May be the verbal abuse is their outlet. Why these "high-qualified professionals" teach in third-world country? Why not in Yell or Prinston?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Again, I ask - if the OP's English is only as good as the local teacher's English, why hire a foreigner? Especially since there are so many native speakers who come here (granted, not all are good!)

 

When I was learning my foreign languages back home, I had native speakers teaching me. And if I learn Chinese, I don't want it to be from someone who has only passed HSK 4! At the very least, I expect their grammar and would choice to be damn good.. the OP's here isn't!

 

 

As for why I'm here - cos I get to do my research and earn my degrees first hand! Not just from other people's writings! "Prinston' and "Yell" (OMFG!!!) are a) in America, and I'm not American, and b)  not in need of my particular skill set!

 

Iryna, you're not the first that this has been said to on this board, and I doubt you'll be the last - but you really shouldn't be trying to teach English here!

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Joshua... I think only qualified, experienced, knowledgeable professionals should be doing a job that requires quality, experience and in-depth knowledge for the money that is being paid...

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

300 M English students in China by 2020..... 

 

Only angelNative, professional English teachers to work in China? From where? 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

No, Incif... only good professional English teachers! I don't really care where they come from, as long a their English is good.

 

Besides, who says they all need to learn English??? What a complete waste for about 90% of them!!!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

'demand & supply'angel 

 

300M students : 100(as an average students per 1 FT) = 3M(-illion) Native English, good teachers?? again: 'from where?'

300M English students in China by 2015 (or 2020) was number I found on Internet by some research group. 'add-it':

http://english.people.com.cn/200603/27/eng20060327_253675.html

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well, it's obviously not going to happen... purely numeric!

 

So, is the solution to change this ideal into something more realistic, or allow crap, inexperienced, and incapable teachers to fill the gap? (and thereby, wasting so much time and effort to make it pointless?)

9 years 21 weeks ago
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joshua73:

Shining_brow - there is just no need to attack someone when they haven't asked for feedback on their English. Just because you're safely hidden behind an avatar doesn't mean it's okay to be rude. 

 

And if you are going to attack someone for their English, at least make sure you're not making any mistakes yourself. 

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Joshua - I think you're missing the most important aspect of this discussion - the fact that their English ability is essential to the job their asking about. If they were after a job in engineering, hospitality, whatever - fine, it wouldn't matter.. but this is for teaching English - so their ability is directly relevant! And, therefore, should be open to 'attack'. Just as if someone was on here advertising they were a doctor, and had no idea about basic anatomy... or an accountant, and had little idea about taxation laws.

 

In reality, my response may be exactly why they didn't get their visa... their English is no better than most Chinese teachers (and, in fact, worse than many). Hence, perhaps why the visa was denied!

 

If you bother to look over my posts (which, of course, I don't expect) you will find that I do NOT comment on someone's low English ability except in 2 instances - firstly, it's incomprehensible, and the meaning is completely lost; or secondly they say they want to teach English... "me English no well, but want teach English"... yeah, I don't think so!!! (see other threads on this topic)

 

As for me making mistakes - as I'm sure you know, when we type in our native language (just as when we speak in our native language), simple mistakes/typos occur. While I profess that my English is pretty good, I don't think it needs to be perfect every single time! Even when I'm 'attacking' someone else's... Even in exams, we're allowed to make 'slips'.. it happens (so do bad keyboards...). If, however, I was constantly making those mistakes, then I'd totally agree with you!!!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Yeah but the reality is that the system here doesn't care if you're good at it. There is no reason why a woman from russia or ukraine etc couldn't find a job at a kindergarten making enough to make ends meet so long as she can say basic English words out of a book.

 

Is her english really very good? No. But again THEY DONT CARE. It's not taken seriously here at pretty much any level. That doesn't mean that YOU can't take it seriously on a personal level and it's really good that you do.

 

You sound like you take your job really seriously and your writing is impeccable. I'm sure you make a hell of a teacher. But that doesn't mean that you have your job because you're good at it (though you might if you're teaching literature or creative writing or something so in that case I take it back), you probably have your job because they hire foreigners to teach english and youre a foreigner. That doesn't take away from you taking it seriously and doing a good job.

 

If they will give decent jobs to any white person, than this woman has a right to take one. It probably isn't going to be at a top university teaching poetry, but she is fully qualified to teach the alphabet to 2 year olds. 

 

If she wants to that's her business. Frankly same as icnif77...when he's not copy/pasting conspiracy articles I never know what he's getting at. I don't agree with him but hey the man wants to work and they'll hire him let him work.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

@expat: '..and let him work.....'

Lucky me, posters at eChina let me work as English teacher in China. My CV holds 5 Recommendation letters from Schools in China I worked in last 5 years. When new employer see my CV, comment is usually: 'Impressive resume!'.

RLetters are all written in Chinese, so I don't really know the meaning. Lucky indeed I am!angel 

Do you feel 'degraded', because Non-naive can do English teaching, same as you Natives?

9 years 21 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

No i dont have a problem at all. Im sure you do a good job.

 

I just dont know what youre saying half the time!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Expat - yeah, of course I know the reality of the situation here. People ask me why I came to China in the first place. My reply:" China will take someone's cat to teach English if it was born in an English speaking country".

 

Question - do people here deserve a good teacher? Do our people back home deserve a good teacher? Should there be this vast gulf in the answers?

 

I know - this is a country of serious abuses, and an attitude of "get whatever you can".

 

I just hope that people out there have more integrity than that! Obviously, they don't :(

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

@expat: I'll measure your brain volume at every Q you'll ask about my text (half of my text). Up-vote for 'Shining'.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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joshua73:

"to the job their asking about"

 

Ok that's enough, I am actually not going to talk to you about you attacking someone else's ability when you clearly have not mastered your own language. It's not exactly a typo when there is a continuous mix up between your/you're and their/they're. 

I think you've demonstrated it may be a bigger problem than you think.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Not that I actually NEED to defend myself, but in ALL of my post-graduate papers I've written (and trust me, it's been a LOT - given I've almost completed TWO masters degrees), I've NEVER had a single mix-up in such things!(and no, that's not using spell check).

 

Gotta love how some people think they can fully diss someone when in one LONG piece, they find the one element that justifies their attack. Forums are not places where one expects perfection... especially when ppl work late at night. (oh, wait - YOU do!)

 

We type fast - but not as fast as we think. And we don't always type what we think... we run tangents all the time - considering different ways of writing the same idea.. they mix up. They don't always come out exactly how it should. boo hoo.

 

But anyway - you're still ignoring the main point! Please, Jason, justify why inexperienced, under-qualified, and insufficiently skilled people should move to a "developing" country to do a job they haven't mastered - AND GET A HIGHER PAY  than those people who are already here doing that job. Would you tolerate that happening back home???

9 years 21 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Welcome to China, your employer lied to you, they did so because they probably are not even allowed by the provincial labor bureau to hire foreign workers in which case you will never have a Z visa, no matter what they tell you they do not have good relations or they would be allowed to process Z visas, you are very likely in deep troubles if the local police finds out, you could be fined, jailed, deported and blacklisted from entering China again.

My advice is to get out of this place as soon as possible, pull a midnight run after your pay day and when you found another (legit) employer of course, they can't pursue you because your contract is illegal anyway and worth peanuts. Maybe 10% of the schools in China are legally authorised to hire foreigners, in any case to get your Z visa you will need to leave Mainland China, you can't convert another visa to a Z visa, Hong Kong or Macau visa offices are the closest possibilities, otherwise any other country with a Chinese embassy.

ScotsAlan:

^ You will not get a better answer than this ^ Go home, lick your wounds and have another go.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

The company had hired foreigners before and sent them to HK to get Z-visa. The school where I work now have 11 foreign teachers and applied for their working visas. So why they did not do that for me? According to the contract the agency is responsible for applying for visa not the school. 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

Employers in China who are allowed to hire foreign workers still have a limited number of residence permits, it can range from 1 to 100 or even more, usually the bigger the company (in terms of profits) the more RP they will be authorised to process by the labor bureau. Maybe you school has reached its maximum number and that is why they can't deliver you one. One other thing troubles me, you said that the "agency" is responsible to obtain you a working visa, is that agency a visa agency? In that case the agent is very likely charging a very high fee to you school for that service (that will not cost him/her a buck, only time), it is possible that after thinking your school decided instead to save money, getting you another business visa won't cost them anything, not even much time.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

My Employer is Requiter (Company, not visa company), I work at school, but I have a contract with requiter, not with school. According to the contract the requiter (Helen Group I think you know) is responsible to obtain me a working visa. Maybe Helen Group has reached its maximum number and that is why they can't deliver me on? 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

Helen Group doesn't have a good reputation among expats in China. My advice remains "get out ASAP".

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Considering that there has been no 'F' visas since July, I'm wondering just what in the heck is actually in your passport.

Sinobear:

And are we going to be treated to links to our friends in the CFTU regarding this situation?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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ironman510:

The F visa is still around, L visa isn't around anymore. My mate just got a F renewed in Malaysia last week

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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If you want to be an English teacher in China, never come to China with a F visa. Always come here with a Z visa and make sure your employer pay the plane ticket.

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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Seriously guys, you still answer to questions redacted in plain Chinglish?

 

Not even mentioning the Random Capitalization, I laughed my ass off at the "requirtment company".

iryna_keis:

What is Chinglish? I am new in this site. I created this post cause I need help not because I wish give you a chance to train your wit. Don't waist your time on me.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

"Englteachted:

Yes don't waist your time. People this stupid are hopeless"

 

An intentional error I hope .

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Waist, you think I, a native speaker would confuse waist with waist?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

'you'll waste your waist....with too mucho gym excer-size'

 

 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 21 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Sounds like the OP, if real, isn't a naive speaker but has been very native! laugh

ChineseAmerican:

You got it opposite. Native speaker means that Language she speaks is her first language. Naive on the other hand means lack of experience and immature.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

And you don't understand humour & forum in jokes......ask Icnif77, he'll explain it to you

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

@Chinese: Hot misspelled 1st 'native'

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
Posts: 2774

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Iryna, are you a DJ or a model?

iryna_keis:

No, I am an English Teacher. I noted it in my post.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iWolf:

Seriously, you are an english teacher? I'm saddened by the standard of your English and saddened for you potential students. One may assume that you didn't score a z visa because you are not a native speaker.

 

There are lots of jobs for eastern europeans...DJ, model, escort, dancers...pick one and work illegally like your friends.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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leave now.

Your 'recruiter' lied to you and will continue to lie to you if you stay with them.

they will tell you what they think you want to hear in order to keep you working illegally.

if you are caught and deported, you will be held responsible for being illegal.

to get a legal job you will have to leave the country.

 

Harsh comment follows

don't teach English writing. 

It is clearly not one of your strengths: you appear to have a problem with homophones

find a job where you play to your strengths

iryna_keis:

I don't ask you about me strengths and weakness.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Sorrel has been the most helpful to you and that is your response?

Is there a word stronger than stupid? 

You can't even see that your English is simply awful! 

 

I hate to say this, but find a rich Chinese guy and be his pay for play toy.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

Ok, in this case for what type of visa he must apply? 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

F visa haha

9 years 22 weeks ago
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joshua73:

Why are you giving her feedback on her spelling/writing when you have no idea what she speaks like, she didn't ask for feedback, and there are a BUNCH of other users who have claimed to be English teachers and have equally appalling English?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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I posted about Helen Group here. You can get some guidance from my threads about Helen. Write 'Helen' in search above for few posts.

 

Demand Z visa of Helen immediately, which is only legal visa for work in China.

If Helen won't move in the 'right visa' direction, find new employer, which can sponsor Z visa. With new employer, you'll most likely look at Z pick-up in your home country.

However, Helen is able to get Hong Kong Z pick up, which is timely shorter and less costly than return to your home.

Once, Z get converted to Residence permit (in 30 days after your entry to China), it is easy to quit Helen, because they don't respect Contract.

With help of SAFEA, you'll be able to change employer, and keep your Residence permit intact.

Good luck!

iryna_keis:

Thank you very much for your answer. It is worth that to hear some offensive phrases from some authors. I have one more question to you... how to demand a working visa from them? and what should I do if they just skip my offer? I have read your post about Mr. Qui :) Please, give me advise ... Can I call him and tell my story... is it a good idea?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

The names of Hangzhou SAFEA (Foreign Expert Bureau) agents probably changed, but you can get Provincial SAFEA addresses and contact no. by typing 'SAFEA' in the search bar above.

If Helen won't move to the Z direction, you should find new employer, which is authorized to hire FT/sponsor Z visa.

It's much easier to sponsor F visa than Z, so Helen does that, but it is illegal by Chinese law.

Open 'Jobs in China', and send your CV to the Schools you're interested. You'll most likely be required to return home for Z pick up.

That's why, I suggested you demand Z from Helen first. Helen will sponsor Z pick-up in HK.

You can tell Wu your lawyer (or SAFEA) told you, you must have Z visa/Residence permit for work in China. 

If Helen fires you/not extend your visa, you're on your own. You're probably looking for return home, if you don't have new Z visa sponsor.

Don't worry for the comments above. Posters here are mostly Native English teachers, who clearly see/watch your mistakes in writing. 

I agree with them, but your English is probably 'good' enough, till you're able to get job in China, so I don't judge. 

 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

If I demand for Z-visa persistently Helen Group can fire me?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

No really 'fire you', but 'not renew your F'. You must exit China day or two before F expiration.

This is possibility, and I'm not sure what Wu will do. SAFEA will not extend your F. SAFEA will advise you to exit China/return home before F expiration.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

My current F-visa is expire on the 9th of November. After 1 week Helen Group will invite me to Hangzhou to renew my F-visa. So you think it is better for me now don't swear with Helen Group and wait while they renew my F-visa. And only after all to demand Z-visa? Right?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Ok, she clearly is a troll. Icn, gave it clear and great advice. And it's response is 'how do I demand ..."

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

Yes, be quiet and renew F. As soon as you get new F, ask Hongtao about 'illegal to work with F'. Tell him, you don't feel 'confident by working illegally', and demand Z visa for work with Helen.

Then, start to look for new Z visa sponsor/employer. 

If Wu will get you Z, it will be with HKong pick-up. You won't be required to fly home.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

Sorry for the stupid question but who are Hongtao and Wu?crying

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

Wu Hongtao is (was) the main hiring agent at Hangzhou Helen Group. If he isn't there anymore, tell the same thing to the agent, who told you to return to the office for F extension. Wu might act under different name, because Internet is full of bad comments about him and Helen. He's Chinese man in 40-tis, 175 cm tall, black hair, almost fluent English speaker. 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
Posts: 2878

Shifu

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Irina, sorry that everyone is giving you a hard time. We have had a scammer use this website very recent and people are very cautious.

 

However the way you write is very consistent with what I know from native slavic speakers writing in english. So I have no reason to think you are lying and others are being paranoid. If you can be hired to teach english, good for you.

 

Your employer could let you go, and it may be difficult for them to process your legal visa if you aren't from a nationally english speaking country. In an area with few expats they may be more relaxed and give you a Z-visa.

 

The question is your own level of risk tolerance. If you are just here making some money temporarily due to difficulty in your home country than I wouldn't worry too much about whether you have a 100% legal Z visa. Because in the worst case you are sent home and you have no ties to china.

 

For some on this board who have children and long term relationships here this would be a huge problem, for others like me (though I work perfectly legally outside of teaching) this would only be a temporary inconvenience. If you are not married to the idea of living in China than losing your right to work here is only a setback.

 

I would recommend looking at other employers to see if they will get you a legal visa, just so you avoid that risk. So long as you are not being given a Z visa if one is in the contract. Then your employer is in violation and you are free to find another job and sign with them. See what you can find.

iryna_keis:

Thank you very much for your answer. Thanks God there are some adequate and empathetic people. Do you think the same as inci77 - if I find a new employer I will have to apply for Z-visa in my home-country? Not in HK? Its really a problem for me now, I cant afford to buy an air-tickets to go home and back now :(

9 years 22 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Honestly I don't know, I got my last Z visa in Hong Kong but that was years ago (2010)

 

Since then it has just been renewed every year, the company takes my passport for 2 weeks and it comes back with a new visa. I don't know what they do with it.

 

As long as you can keep your current job for now, you would be wise to keep working and saving some money. 

 

One thing i do know (or at least was told several years ago) is that there is a piece of official paper called an alien employment license that the hiring company must get for you. Once you get this, you are considered to be legally working (though maybe only from the company's point of view that's just what they told me) even if you don't have your Z visa yet. 

 

So if you do find a new job willing to get the visa, but not in Hong Kong, there could be some time between when you get your paperwork issued and when you get your visa. Maybe enough time to save for the ticket.

 

All just guessing though.

 

Hope this can help you.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

In en.safea.gov.cn I found this:

6.2 Application for Foreign Expert’s License and Residence Permit for Aliens. Foreign experts holding a Z Visa shall, within 15 days after entry into the territory of the P.R. China, apply for Foreign Expert’s License to the authority that issued the Foreign Expert Work Permit, and within 30 days after entry into the territory of P.R. China, shall apply for Residence Permit for Aliens to the local entry-exit administration by presenting Employment Visa (Z Visa) and Foreign Expert’s License.

 
 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

But even if I find a new employer who will hire me how can I be sure that they don't cheat me like Helen Group? :( Are there any guaranties?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Hello,

sorry for giving you a hard time as well, as expatlife26 explained, we've had problems recently with other troublesome users. But you obviously appear legitimate.

 

The guarantee for you to have a good working condition is to work under a Z visa and eventually a work resident permit. That's the only way your contract will be enforceable - at least technically.

This is not necessarily 100% foolproof, but surely more than working outside of this scope.

 

The decision for the place where you can process your visa belongs to the local Employment Bureau (name vary on a city level). They issue the "invitation letter". It will be hard to tell whether they will allow you to process it in Hong Kong, but they will usually tell you before your employer applies.

My guess is that these days you'll have good chances, now Hong Kong has restrictions on other visas. But it's only my guess.

 

What you quoted is what will happen after you enter China with your Z visa.

 

A piece of general advice in how to deal with a Chinese employer: try to be confident and do not accept to be "flexible". Define your limits as soon as possible and do not accept to bend them, even for a "one time thing". Many employers will test you and your personality first, then define how much shit they can put in your way.

 

If you have more paperwork specific questions, ask anytime.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

Thank you RiriRiri :) I am glad that there are no longer misunderstandings (if my grammar is incorrect, please, forgive me).

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

I have one more question... I were told that Helen Group keep your passport for two or more weeks while your F-visa renewal. But I don't want to leave my passport to them cause I can't trust them anymore. Could you describe me the visa process. Can I avoid taking my passport away?

9 years 21 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

This is wrong to begin with, so I have no idea.

 

Visas can't be renewed inside of China, extended yes but not renewed. And F visas don't exist anymore if I remember well. 

If we are talking about Residence Permit, then yes, a few weeks seems reasonable.

If they are applying for another visa, chances are your passport will be sent somewhere abroad.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

My bad, F visas still do exist, but I have no idea as to whether they are extendable within China. Probably yes.

Ignore my previous comment. Anyway, one or two weeks is a reasonable delay these days.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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This is web link of Schools in China authorized to hire foreigners:

 

 

http://www.anesl.com/schools/ info.asp?province=Guangdong& keyword=University&cmd=Search 

Change Province/city and level of the School. Web link is not updated, so your new School might not be listed on the link.

I advice, you return to the Board with new Qs you'll have about your new offer/school. Your new School might be able to sponsor Z visa pick-up in HK, but there is strong possiblility you'll be required to return home for Z. Tell your new Z sponsor that you don't have enough funds to fly home and return to China with new Z. They might pay for that, or they might give you a loan. My present School suggested, I return home for Z pick-up. Reason: School is paying for the trip, and they cannot get tax refund/cost for HK Hotel in the 'Z visa cost' tax matter. They paid for the plane ticket to EU, and as soon as I get Z, they'll purchase return ticket to Beijing. Trip to HKong would be cheaper, but they cannot get refunded Hotel cost, so I'm home on my mum's cost.Good luck!

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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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I'm going to be blunt - Irinya, you're English is not much better than many students I currently teach, and worse than that of the local English teachers here. You're basic grammar is erroneous, and you're using words (when spelt correctly) which just aren't used appropriately. Actually, you come across as VERY Chinese in your writing!

 

So, I would have to ask, why should anyone hire you to teach when they have better here already, who they can pay much less for.

 

(as a certified IELTS examiner, I feel quite qualified to assess your language, and offer up this opinion!)

 

 

(FTR - no, I'm not in any way against NNES teaching my language - I do, however, expect those people to be damn good, especially for the most basic elements, and are better than the locals!)

expatlife26:

i am pretty sure she is not chinese in her english writing.

 

It looks very much how slavic language speakers tend to do english.

 

Read it in a slavic accent and it will sound very natural.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Ok. I can't really comment on Slavic L1 transfer, but I can on Chinese... and she's using words and structures that are also indicative of Chinese L2 English learners. 'adequate', "is expire", "some authors" (very Chinglish!!), "I don't ask you about me strength and weakness". All fairly stereotypical Chinglish.

 

Perhaps Putonghua is an off-shoot of a Slavic dialect :p (remember the Caucasians they found out west??)

9 years 22 weeks ago
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joshua73:

your*....

 

I think everyone should stop giving her feedback on her language skills...

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

She got hired by Chinese agency. I don't see a problem. Her English is blast for the recruiter. You aren't hiring her. She already has English teaching job.

Are we giving advices or lecturing on the free board? You could direct your complaint to Helen, and come back to the board with their feedback.

9 years 22 weeks ago
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iryna_keis:

Thank you who support me and intercede for me. But if people feel satisfaction by disgracing others the only one thing I can do is to sorry them. May be the verbal abuse is their outlet. Why these "high-qualified professionals" teach in third-world country? Why not in Yell or Prinston?

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Again, I ask - if the OP's English is only as good as the local teacher's English, why hire a foreigner? Especially since there are so many native speakers who come here (granted, not all are good!)

 

When I was learning my foreign languages back home, I had native speakers teaching me. And if I learn Chinese, I don't want it to be from someone who has only passed HSK 4! At the very least, I expect their grammar and would choice to be damn good.. the OP's here isn't!

 

 

As for why I'm here - cos I get to do my research and earn my degrees first hand! Not just from other people's writings! "Prinston' and "Yell" (OMFG!!!) are a) in America, and I'm not American, and b)  not in need of my particular skill set!

 

Iryna, you're not the first that this has been said to on this board, and I doubt you'll be the last - but you really shouldn't be trying to teach English here!

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Joshua... I think only qualified, experienced, knowledgeable professionals should be doing a job that requires quality, experience and in-depth knowledge for the money that is being paid...

9 years 22 weeks ago
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icnif77:

300 M English students in China by 2020..... 

 

Only angelNative, professional English teachers to work in China? From where? 

9 years 22 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

No, Incif... only good professional English teachers! I don't really care where they come from, as long a their English is good.

 

Besides, who says they all need to learn English??? What a complete waste for about 90% of them!!!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

'demand & supply'angel 

 

300M students : 100(as an average students per 1 FT) = 3M(-illion) Native English, good teachers?? again: 'from where?'

300M English students in China by 2015 (or 2020) was number I found on Internet by some research group. 'add-it':

http://english.people.com.cn/200603/27/eng20060327_253675.html

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well, it's obviously not going to happen... purely numeric!

 

So, is the solution to change this ideal into something more realistic, or allow crap, inexperienced, and incapable teachers to fill the gap? (and thereby, wasting so much time and effort to make it pointless?)

9 years 21 weeks ago
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joshua73:

Shining_brow - there is just no need to attack someone when they haven't asked for feedback on their English. Just because you're safely hidden behind an avatar doesn't mean it's okay to be rude. 

 

And if you are going to attack someone for their English, at least make sure you're not making any mistakes yourself. 

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Joshua - I think you're missing the most important aspect of this discussion - the fact that their English ability is essential to the job their asking about. If they were after a job in engineering, hospitality, whatever - fine, it wouldn't matter.. but this is for teaching English - so their ability is directly relevant! And, therefore, should be open to 'attack'. Just as if someone was on here advertising they were a doctor, and had no idea about basic anatomy... or an accountant, and had little idea about taxation laws.

 

In reality, my response may be exactly why they didn't get their visa... their English is no better than most Chinese teachers (and, in fact, worse than many). Hence, perhaps why the visa was denied!

 

If you bother to look over my posts (which, of course, I don't expect) you will find that I do NOT comment on someone's low English ability except in 2 instances - firstly, it's incomprehensible, and the meaning is completely lost; or secondly they say they want to teach English... "me English no well, but want teach English"... yeah, I don't think so!!! (see other threads on this topic)

 

As for me making mistakes - as I'm sure you know, when we type in our native language (just as when we speak in our native language), simple mistakes/typos occur. While I profess that my English is pretty good, I don't think it needs to be perfect every single time! Even when I'm 'attacking' someone else's... Even in exams, we're allowed to make 'slips'.. it happens (so do bad keyboards...). If, however, I was constantly making those mistakes, then I'd totally agree with you!!!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Yeah but the reality is that the system here doesn't care if you're good at it. There is no reason why a woman from russia or ukraine etc couldn't find a job at a kindergarten making enough to make ends meet so long as she can say basic English words out of a book.

 

Is her english really very good? No. But again THEY DONT CARE. It's not taken seriously here at pretty much any level. That doesn't mean that YOU can't take it seriously on a personal level and it's really good that you do.

 

You sound like you take your job really seriously and your writing is impeccable. I'm sure you make a hell of a teacher. But that doesn't mean that you have your job because you're good at it (though you might if you're teaching literature or creative writing or something so in that case I take it back), you probably have your job because they hire foreigners to teach english and youre a foreigner. That doesn't take away from you taking it seriously and doing a good job.

 

If they will give decent jobs to any white person, than this woman has a right to take one. It probably isn't going to be at a top university teaching poetry, but she is fully qualified to teach the alphabet to 2 year olds. 

 

If she wants to that's her business. Frankly same as icnif77...when he's not copy/pasting conspiracy articles I never know what he's getting at. I don't agree with him but hey the man wants to work and they'll hire him let him work.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

@expat: '..and let him work.....'

Lucky me, posters at eChina let me work as English teacher in China. My CV holds 5 Recommendation letters from Schools in China I worked in last 5 years. When new employer see my CV, comment is usually: 'Impressive resume!'.

RLetters are all written in Chinese, so I don't really know the meaning. Lucky indeed I am!angel 

Do you feel 'degraded', because Non-naive can do English teaching, same as you Natives?

9 years 21 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

No i dont have a problem at all. Im sure you do a good job.

 

I just dont know what youre saying half the time!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Expat - yeah, of course I know the reality of the situation here. People ask me why I came to China in the first place. My reply:" China will take someone's cat to teach English if it was born in an English speaking country".

 

Question - do people here deserve a good teacher? Do our people back home deserve a good teacher? Should there be this vast gulf in the answers?

 

I know - this is a country of serious abuses, and an attitude of "get whatever you can".

 

I just hope that people out there have more integrity than that! Obviously, they don't :(

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

@expat: I'll measure your brain volume at every Q you'll ask about my text (half of my text). Up-vote for 'Shining'.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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joshua73:

"to the job their asking about"

 

Ok that's enough, I am actually not going to talk to you about you attacking someone else's ability when you clearly have not mastered your own language. It's not exactly a typo when there is a continuous mix up between your/you're and their/they're. 

I think you've demonstrated it may be a bigger problem than you think.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Not that I actually NEED to defend myself, but in ALL of my post-graduate papers I've written (and trust me, it's been a LOT - given I've almost completed TWO masters degrees), I've NEVER had a single mix-up in such things!(and no, that's not using spell check).

 

Gotta love how some people think they can fully diss someone when in one LONG piece, they find the one element that justifies their attack. Forums are not places where one expects perfection... especially when ppl work late at night. (oh, wait - YOU do!)

 

We type fast - but not as fast as we think. And we don't always type what we think... we run tangents all the time - considering different ways of writing the same idea.. they mix up. They don't always come out exactly how it should. boo hoo.

 

But anyway - you're still ignoring the main point! Please, Jason, justify why inexperienced, under-qualified, and insufficiently skilled people should move to a "developing" country to do a job they haven't mastered - AND GET A HIGHER PAY  than those people who are already here doing that job. Would you tolerate that happening back home???

9 years 21 weeks ago
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9 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Oh god, i am not surprised you are not granted  Z visa. "Iryna" belongs to eastern European names, too many prepositions and few typical mistakes hint on Slavic languages (i speak two of them). So Ira does not sound like a native speaker at all, my suggestion is to change a job, in order to teach English in China you must be holder of Foreign Expert certificate and to be a native speaker, i don't think even a kindergarten can offer job for a person whose mother tongue is not English. Maybe that's a reason why you were granted with business visa. 

iryna_keis:

I know some non-native English teachers working i China with Z-visas. Some of them are from Eastern Europe.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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icnif77:

'Non-native' isn't reason/cause for F visa. F visa is easier to obtain and renew for the recruiter. How are you not surprised OP didn't get Z visa? Most Chinese teachers in schools and recruiters in China don't speak fluent English. This is the reason Schools in China demand English teacher is from Native English country. Recruiters and Chinese teachers are able to judge one's English just by her/his Native English passport. You would do the same, if you wouldn't speak Chinese, and you would hire Chinese teacher. You certainly wouldn't hire Chinese teacher from Burma, would you? OP didn't ask for judgment on her English. She has job in Chinese school already, and need advice on visa handling. What should I do to make you all 'fork-off' with English lecturing? Write complain to Helen, because they hired the English teacher with not grammatically correct writings! Now, step away from the mirror! 

 

9 years 21 weeks ago
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9 years 21 weeks ago
 
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Wow this thread really shows the true colours of English Teachers in China.

Hotwater:

In what way? You could take this thread two ways:

1) There are a lot of so-called English teachers here who shouldn't be teaching the language. 

2) There are a lot of English teachers on here bitter about non-natives taking their jobs. 

 

Actually could list more but I'd be interested in knowing what you actually mean. 

 

(BTW....I'm not an English teacher so don't really have a vested interest in this)

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Which colour would that be? The colour of those who think that language teaching is (or should be) a respected profession that should conducted by those who actually know what they are doing, and are good at it?

 

I'm sure there'd be a massive hoo-ha if we had people professing to teach physics when they only passed junior science back home. Or teaching macro-economics with only the fundamentals of bookkeeping under their belt. Or management after only opening up a small shop for 6 months.

 

My question remains (unanswered) - why should a foreigner be hired - and paid more - than a local teacher when the skills of the local and the foreigner are equal?

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Iron_Monkey:

I'm seeing a lot of resentment towards non-native teachers and don't clearly understand why native teachers feel so threatened and/or insecure. I guess they want to believe that teaching English is a hard, respected job so when they see a non-native doing it it almost conveys that in-fact if a non-native can do it then anyone can do it and if anyone can do it then it can't be that hard or respected. Native or not if they have a passion to teach let them teach. If you became a teacher for respect oh boy did you pick the wrong profession.

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well IM - you should see some of our thoughts towards native English speakers who can't teach, and shouldn't teach.

 

I suspect for the majority of us, it's less to do with where you come from, and much more to do with one's abilities and intentions. The ones who come thinking this is merely a holiday and don't really need to do anything except play movies, and pass every kid with flying colours are also generally looked down upon. (that is to say, serious and good teachers would have a problem passing students who clearly shouldn't be ...).

 

Why? Put it this way, name another profession where so many unqualified, inexperienced, and 'who-gives-a-flying-fu..' people can so easily get a job, and which  of those would not garner any resentment (or negative feedback... and even negative stereotyping)??? Personally, right now, I can't think of any!

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

Hey man, I took a first aid class in 1998, I am TOTALLY qualified to be a doctor. 

9 years 21 weeks ago
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9 years 21 weeks ago
 
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I have found this to be a very interesting thread.

 

I am not a teacher, and it was hard work for me to get a work permit because I don't have a degree. I have HE certificates and professional body body membership (lapsed) but not that degree. In the end I think it was my experience and a very good agent that got me that brown book.

 

I reckon China needs to do away with this native English passport requirement. No formal teaching qualifications? No problem. Do this test and we will see if you are good enough. Pass the test and you can get a Z visa tied to a particular commercial training center. But to teach in a public school where attendance by the pupils is compulsory.... erm nope. Need to be qualified for that.

 

I think there is a difference between state schools that kids have to attend, and commercial training centers where students pay. Paying students can vote on the quality of training with their feet.

 

And as I have said in previous posts, I firmly believe qualified teachers should have a different type of work visa that allows them to work for any school. Almost like a D visa really.

 

The good teachers are needed in the places where it is the most difficult for schools to get a foreign employment license.

 

 

Shining_brow:

In the ideal world (or even, the rest of the world) I'd totally agree with you. Unfortunately, can you imagine how that would operate?? There are already English teachers out there who shouldn't be teaching - and yet they've been given the job (I'm talking about locals here, not imports).

 

I speak to various students who decide to do a post-grad OS, so they can come back here and teach... ie, not put in the years of dedication to get the experience needed... That's how this whole thing became a problem - no-one really cared about ability. And we know this, because of how low the quality of things really is... remember, "China is a developing country".

 

For your system to work, they'd need to have people who actually are damn good at what they do, who then decide who else is damn good... but those people aren't likely to be sitting on an interview panel...

 

But - perhaps the idea of different visas for different levels of teaching may be some sort of solution...

 

The question remains though - given that back home we have such a system in place (in some respects), and where I'm from, you need quite a bit of qualification etc even to work in a kindergarten, do you really think it's ok to have a slightly different system here?

9 years 21 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

I think a slightly different system from the west would be ok, because as you say China is a developing country.

 

Regarding the standard of local teachers.....I agree. There must be loads of bad ones out there. As there are everywhere.  The solution would have to be Government led. And that would not be easy given the local distrust of Government and also the commercial pressures involved.

 

Having said that, if the standard of some local teachers is low, that is no reason for the standard of some foreign teachers to be low as well.  So I think foreign teachers should possibly be examined/ interviewed by their peers... fellow foreign teachers. Perhaps employed by Government and tasked with improving teaching standards. These could be the people who can award the non employer linked visas.

 

This could be good PR for the Government too, what with newspaper articles etc.

 

Approved teachers, as well as getting their decent visa, could also be given a certificate the school can hang on the wall to show they have Government tested and approved foreign teachers.  Wages could be increased to attract the professionals by the wage bill being split between the Government and the state school.

 

Ok, this is all pie in the sky stuff.

 

But education is massively important. It was a teacher that inspired me to be an Engineer. If it was not for this particular guy all these years ago I would probably be a street sweeper in my hometown. Not that there is anything wrong with being a street sweeper of course.

 

 

 

 

9 years 21 weeks ago
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Forward Question

Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77