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Q: Following what is going on in the Hague ?
for those with VPN that is
7 years 40 weeks ago in Health & Safety - China
It's a huge f**k up for China diplomatically. They've pissed off Philippines. They've pissed off Indonesia and Malaysia. They've alienated Vietnam and pushed them closer to Uncle Sam. They've thumbed their nose at international law.
China's long term goal for the Pacific should be to position itself as legitimate alternative to America as the main regional power, source of stability and conflict resolution agent.
It has failed badly and it is an incredibly public failure.
You have to ask yourself if the risk was worth the reward.
China now looks like a bit of a bully and a petulant child that does not play well with others or know how to share its toys.
harryjohn:
The Chinese government must succumb now to the pressure they get from its own people. Not from the outside world. Let's wait and see how Chinese government will make wise decisions upon this issue. It's hard to lose someone's face. 
retiredinchina:
The Chinese people with the one child policy have raised another generation that does no want to share toys, so the problem continues until someone gives a wake up call and a severe spanking (war), this problem can't be solved by diplomacy or compromise, I hope I am wrong, but sadly not that often.
nzteacher80:
War is unthinkable. If a war started what would stop it escalating into a nuclear war? Nothing.
Shining_brow:
"China now looks like a bit of a bully and a petulant child that does not play well with others or know how to share its toys."
What a load of rubbish!
China now looks like a MASSIVE bully!!!!
Shining_brow:
No, war is not unthinkable.
All it will take is for a push, to come to a shove, to a slap, to a fist, to....
Or, literally, a boat or plane busy doing some posturing, playing the chicken dance, and someone deciding not to back down - launch a missile, fire a shot into a boat. Then a bigger fire-fight, then a declaration of war.. more ships, more planes. Someone decides to invade those islands, China retaliates, escalation.... China decides to land on stated land controlled by others....
ironman510:
If a war happened, what would happen to all the ESL jobs. 
retiredinchina:
After china and america wipe each other out, no worries, my Russian language skills are pretty damn good.
If you can't whip the Indonesian navy's ass, you basically suck anyway. This is such a joke. Interesting how a muslim country, Indonesia, is not taking any shit from China.
retiredinchina:
Muslims countries don't back down, they fight to the death or all is lost, unlike the west who fight for profit at the expense of victory. Everyone is playing nice in the south china sea in a poker game of bluffing, Indonesia will not bluff. The west could learn a thing or two from this, but nobody sees the forest, just the trees.
Hotwater:
Interesting point. The whole SCS issue appears to be most of those involved being careful not to cross a line. Will be very interesting to see the results later today and how the various countries respond.
xinyuren:
Am I following you correctly? Exactly what lesson should the West be learning from Indonesia? To fight to the death? To never back down? I hope thats not what you mean. They aren't playing a game of Stratego, you know. Real lives will be at stake if a real war breaks out. Victory doesn't always mean winning a war (you know people really die in a war and they don't re-spawn like in the video games). We are witnessing unprecedented events and a mistake could tip an already precarious balance. If we go to war, everyone loses. Indonesia fired on a fishing boat. Nothing more than that. It has nothing to do with whats happening in the SCS.
retiredinchina:
yes, all out war, the sooner the better, china is a country with too many people wanting too many resources from the rest of the world, so you fight and take what you need, or people will eventually not provide the resources because they have their own interests to consider. the war over resources that china needs is going to happen eventually, the sooner its over and a solution is reached the better, delaying the inevitable just causes more suffering. china may win, china may lose, does not matter, resources are limited and somebody is going to go without, and the world will keep on turning.
xinyuren:
@retired- poor you. You are a victim of propoganda and ignorance, which goes to prove that China doesn't hold the patents on blind nationalism. This is precisely the reason mankind is unqualified to rule. Too many of us think bullying each other with sticks and stones is the solution to the problem.
retiredinchina:
Its simply numbers, there are not enough natural resources for 7 billion people and some one has to lose, has nothing to do with nationalism, pure math.
Japan is nice to everybody because they import almost all of their food. They have no choice.
China is bullying and ripping off other countries and after they do a deal they brag about how good they do business and screw the other party. 9 percent of the land and 20 percent of the people, China will have to depend on other countries to survive, but rather than be a friend and get along, they have to buy, blackmail, cheat, or bully, sooner or later they will have to be nice, rather they like it or not, but they will go down fighting before they will smile, shake hands and deal with the world fairly. They have no choice, but they don't know it yet.
Nationalism has nothing to do with it, I plan on living in Russia soon because they have resources and America and China are going to diminish on the world stage, Russia and Canada will have resources long after China and America are in the dustbin of history, pity I want be alive to see it.
xinyuren:
Nationalistic propaganda has everything to do with your answer. I can see no other reason for your ignorance. The basis for your opinion is a lie nationalists use to justify imperialism, that there are not enough resources to support our population. What resources are you referring to? Oil (the resource that pollutes our earth and , ironically, reduces our available resources due to the pollution)? Food (the stuff that grows from the ground and waters that we have polluted)? Or are you referring to metals (that we use to build our skyscrapers, cars, and iPhones that we don't really need)? The truth is we have enough resources to sustain everyone in happiness. We dont have enough resources to sustain our greed. You will get your wish. It is an inevitability because man is so stupid, selfish, and greedy. But I'm afraid you will be disappointed because neither Russia nor anywhere else will be a safe haven for you. All out war means all out destruction (or didn't you think that through, clever boy?).
xinyuren:
By the way, if you really think the Chinese will go down fighting against unfavorable odds over this issue, you really havent learned much about them. How long have you been in China? The Chinese are reknowned for their cowardice. Almost every Chinese person of means (the ones with money) knows this is a sham and sideshow. The only way this issue will go to war is by accident.
retiredinchina:
I have been in war, shot 3 times, your chatting with a walking dead man, it's of no consequence to me at all. Everybody dies, some are lucky enough to pick the time and place. It was a great honor to serve as a volunteer with the IDF, one of my greatest experiences. I hope your right about no war, but it still does not solve the problem of resources over the long term. the problem is there and has no solution. I do not think I am clever, I just live in reality and adjust to the conditions on the ground, like a soldier is trained to do. In the end, nobody gives a shit what I think, but I will make my choices and live with them.
xinyuren:
From what I get out of my discussions with the upper class, they don't fear war. But that is not to say war won't happen down the line. Its inevitable.
Shining_brow:
Xin - you seem to have gone against your previous comment on war happening...
As someone said below, the biggest problem China faces now is the CCP losing face to its people. They can't afford to back down on this. And I doubt that other countries in the area will just sit back and twiddle their thumbs over this...
xinyuren:
@Shining - I have always been on record and my opinion hasn't changed. The only way war will transpire directly from this issue is if someone makes a stupid mistake. This is a smokescreen, a sideshow, pure theater. The CCP doesn't have the will to fight the international community and risk full decapitation. Once its people see smoke in the water, they will have lost their clown show to distract the kids and the game will be over. I don't see them risking that. I once thought they would use their nuclear threat to strike a deal at the diplomatic table to keep face, but the THAAD in Korea is putting a damper on that option. But going to war? Govt. officials have trillions of dollars stashed in overseas accounts, let alone their foreign exchange reserves that would be lost forever. This would be a doomsday scenario to fight against these odds. On the other hand, a war on a different front is inevitable.
Shining_brow:
@Xin - alright - I see what you mean now. I thought your 'inevitable war' was about SCS.
So... when the shooting starts (and it will - probably a Filipino naval vessel vs a Chinese naval vessel... maybe a fighter jet shot down like Turkey/Russia) - how will that end? The CCP needs to keep face... And I doubt the Philipino government will be too willing to give it to them. If that little sea battle goes the way of the Philippines, they'll be heartened by it - and China will send more ships... and demand vengeance (for the 'humiliation' :p) If that happens, more Filipinos will send their fishing boats out... and kaboom....
For an abundance of truthiness
http://www.thatsmags.com/china/post/14472/watch-state-media-explainer-on...
The trained dogs have already started barking. I just got some rhetoric on my QQ moments.
Scandinavian:
This is one of those cases where I really have to try hard not to loose all respect for my Chinese friends. The stuff that is going on WeChat right now..... by people who find it perfectly OK that they need visa's for places like Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan.
xinyuren:
I have had to bite my tongue (err, finger) at some of the things they wrote, but this is exactly what I expected from people who has been trained to act and not think. The propoganda machine is in full working order, distracting the masses from the real issues.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-intensifies-opposition-ahead-south-china-sea-ruling-080917416.html
**no real surprise, if they did not rule the way they did, every damn country in world could start building islands all over the oceans and creating territory, what in the hell did they expect.
retiredinchina:
i hope japan, taiwan, indonesia, philippines, vietnam start building islands all over the danm place, so i can walk home to america. The Chinese better learn how to pray for a miracle, after Trump wins and raises the tariffs and cuts the trade, they want have any money for the navy. Every Chinese citizen should be sending a check to the Hillary campaign.
Englteachted:
It would be nice if Europe, America Canada and Australia could grow some balls and sanction (trade embargo) China.
nzteacher80:
Tariffs, embargos and sanctions against China would push the teetering world economy over the edge. It's not gonna happen.
retiredinchina:
http://ww2.odu.edu/~jrichman/workingpapers/MechanismstoBalanceTrade.shtml
many ways to fix the problem, somebody is going to try one of them, the middle class in america is not going to let it go on in perpetuity under the current system.
Shining_brow:
For once, I actually agree with you RiT! Let's start a war and see who wins... (and then, the losers can winge and bitch about it being 'illegal' and you should give it back)
I saw it first on all my friends wechats in Chinese. Than VPN my way to CNN videos. How will China respond to Americans with in China? Probably nothing.
retiredinchina:
I'm ready for that, plan on inflicting a lot of pain if I'm attacked. The first thing that will happen is retaliation against the Philippines, any maid, domestic worker, teacher, anybody from the Philippines will not get a visa approval for another year in China. This order has probably already been sent out. Hong Kong will probably tell the mainland to go to hell and not enforce it though. If a foreigner is married to Filipino and living in China, he might as well start packing and sending out resumes. I will certainly miss those beautiful Magandas singing at the 4 or 5 star hotel bars and lounges, but all good things come to an end.
Scandinavian:
yup. and maybe some flipping of Japanese cars, orchestrated for the CCTV Evening News.
http://answers.echinacities.com/question/did-you-ever-try-cctv-7pm-news-drinking-game
ironman510:
Wonder what would happen to Foreigners married to Chinese if a war broke out?
Scandinavian:
I would guess there is a difference between foreigners on spousal visas and foreigners married to Chinese but on a work visa. In that one is occupying a job the other is burning money from home !
lol...pengyou qian is in overdrive with various combinations of:
*us V's them;
*american and japanese led conspiracy
*let's go to war NOW!!!!
*who cares what those foreignerdevils think
*because history and an old fisherman's fabricated notebook
It's a huge f**k up for China diplomatically. They've pissed off Philippines. They've pissed off Indonesia and Malaysia. They've alienated Vietnam and pushed them closer to Uncle Sam. They've thumbed their nose at international law.
China's long term goal for the Pacific should be to position itself as legitimate alternative to America as the main regional power, source of stability and conflict resolution agent.
It has failed badly and it is an incredibly public failure.
You have to ask yourself if the risk was worth the reward.
China now looks like a bit of a bully and a petulant child that does not play well with others or know how to share its toys.
harryjohn:
The Chinese government must succumb now to the pressure they get from its own people. Not from the outside world. Let's wait and see how Chinese government will make wise decisions upon this issue. It's hard to lose someone's face.
retiredinchina:
The Chinese people with the one child policy have raised another generation that does no want to share toys, so the problem continues until someone gives a wake up call and a severe spanking (war), this problem can't be solved by diplomacy or compromise, I hope I am wrong, but sadly not that often.
nzteacher80:
War is unthinkable. If a war started what would stop it escalating into a nuclear war? Nothing.
Shining_brow:
"China now looks like a bit of a bully and a petulant child that does not play well with others or know how to share its toys."
What a load of rubbish!
China now looks like a MASSIVE bully!!!!
Shining_brow:
No, war is not unthinkable.
All it will take is for a push, to come to a shove, to a slap, to a fist, to....
Or, literally, a boat or plane busy doing some posturing, playing the chicken dance, and someone deciding not to back down - launch a missile, fire a shot into a boat. Then a bigger fire-fight, then a declaration of war.. more ships, more planes. Someone decides to invade those islands, China retaliates, escalation.... China decides to land on stated land controlled by others....
ironman510:
If a war happened, what would happen to all the ESL jobs.
retiredinchina:
After china and america wipe each other out, no worries, my Russian language skills are pretty damn good.
I hope GreenPeace or Sea Shephard guys find a reason to get involved.. they are the types of folks that have the "BALLS" to get involved in a coral reef saving or fish saving type of thing. I would love to see them set up a tent camp on an airstrip in the south china sea. I am in Malaysia today and just came back from a fishing trip. My guide says he and his outfit do not go near what was once their best fishing grounds because of fears of their lives and the Chinese. Hardly blame them. But they are an upscale outfit that can afford to abandon a lucrative location like this.... the real day to day subsistence fisherman cannot do the same and survive.
looking at the bigger picture.
if there is conflict in the SCS you may find other countries around the world taking advantage of limited resources of China and the USA.
perfect time for NTH Korea to play up .
or for that matter uncle Vlad to grab some ground.
What ever happens nobody will come out on top
hopefully the people that have to fire the guns have more sense than the people who tell them too.
Hague-after ... all:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-13/south-china-sea-tensions-surge-...
South China Sea Tensions Surge After Taiwan Deploys Frigate, China Warns Of "Air Defense Zone"
Following the much anticipated ruling by the international court which found yesterday that China does not have a right to claims on the South China Sea, an unexpected supporter for China's position - which has vocally warned it won't comply with the tribunal's ruling - emerged overnight when Taiwan, which shares territorial claims with China in the disputed area - sent a naval frigate to patrol the disputed waterway Wednesday, to show the government’s “determination" to defend its national interest.
The order from Taiwan's president Tsai Ing-wen came just hours after the Permanent Court of Arbitration found found that the largest natural feature in the contested Spratly Islands, the Taiwanese-held Itu Aba, was a "rock" rather than an island and didn’t qualify for a 200-nautical mile (370 kilometer) exclusive economic zone. The frigate’s planned patrol included a resupply stop at the feature, which Taiwan calls Taiping, a defense ministry spokesman said.
more on web link....
As Bloomberg adds, in a statement echoing China’s own response Tuesday, Tsai said the Hague ruling had no binding effect on Taiwan and undermined her government’s rights. The former law professor, who ousted Ma’s Nationalist party in a landslide election in January, called for multilateral talks to promote stability in the region.
What is most surprising is that the president's remarks put Taiwan’s new leader at odds with its chief security protector, the U.S., which has called on China to abide by the ruling. They also provide a rare area of agreement between Tsai and Communist Party leaders, who have cut off communications over her refusal to affirm the contention the two sides represent "one China."
Tsai’s Democratic Progressive Party officially supports independence for Taiwan. New York University law professor Jerome Cohen, a specialist in Chinese law who counts Ma among his former students, said Tsai was struggling to "adjust to an uncomfortable situation."
"Today’s response openly rejecting the decision is a big mistake and different from what even Ma would have done," Cohen wrote in a blog post Tuesday. "Tsai will be criticized at home for following Beijing’s lawless line at the same time that Beijing was responsible for excluding Taiwan from participation in the arbitration."
Taiwan’s Coast Guard Administration also stations vessels at Itu Aba, and another Wei-Shin frigate arrived at the feature late Tuesday, the agency said.
Scots look at this map and you tell me this is America's fault that Malaysia, Brunei, Vietnam, Indonesia and the Phils are angry.
https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingt...
icnif77:
America's fault by M. Chossudovsky:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-us-led-militarization-of-southeast-asia-china-russia-north-korea-and-iran-are-targets-in-pentagon-world-war-iii-scenarios/5535932
On Tuesday, the Hague ruled that China has no legal basis for its claims in the South China Sea. Asked to comment, Michel Chossudovsky, the director of the Montreal-based Center for Research on Globalization, told Sputnik that the Hague ‘tempest in a teapot’ is much less worrying than Washington’s efforts to militarize the region.
There are two central issues, Professor Chossudovsky explained. “One is the fact that the United States has a project to militarize the Asia Pacific region, specifically threatening China. The other issue is …the [territorial] disputes between China, the Philippines, Vietnam, etc.”
The second issue, according to the analyst, would be much easier to resolve if it weren’t for US involvement, which is using the territorial disputes as part of its so-called ‘pivot to Asia’, “essentially preventing these countries from reaching negotiations, and building a situation of crisis within the Asia-Pacific region.”
Leaving aside the details of the ruling itself, Chossudovsky emphasized that when talking about a diplomatic conflict involving the Philippines and China, one has to understand that “we’re not talking about a conflict between one sovereign nation and another sovereign nation. The Philippines is a former colony of Spain and the United States, and today it remains almost a de facto colony of the United States, in terms of its broad alignments, military cooperation agreements, and so on and so forth.”Therefore, the analyst noted, “when the president of the Philippines negotiates with China, he does it in consultation with Washington.”
Asked about the prospects of the diplomatic flare-up provoking a new arms race in the region, Chossudovsky suggested that unfortunately, one has already begun.
“We are already in an arms race situation, triggered by the United States. That arms race, at this particular juncture, is essentially directed against four countries – Russia, China…Iran and North Korea. These are the four countries which are on the drawing board of the Pentagon, and they have been there for many, many years. In all the war games – the World War 3 scenarios that the Pentagon [plays out] on a routine basis – these four countries are the targets…This is ultimately what is at stake.”
The professor reiterated that the militarization of the South China Sea is “there for two purposes:
for threatening China, and [for preventing] the countries of the region – of Southeast Asia and the Far East from entering into cooperation agreements which would be more of a regional type.”
Such agreements, Chossudovsky noted, would serve as a clear threat to Washington’s efforts to enforce the Trans-Pacific Partnership, aimed at putting countries throughout the region “under the geopolitical control of the United States.”
The professor also emphasized that under normal circumstances, the issue of maritime rights would be resolved through bilateral discussions. A Canadian, Chossudovsky recalled that the United States and Canada also have water boundary disputes. But this doesn’t mean that the Chinese Navy butts in and deploys its own ships to these areas.
“In other words, what I think is deplorable here is that a legal dispute under the laws of the sea is [being] used by the United States to threaten China and militarize strategic waterways in the South China Sea,” the analyst noted.
Ultimately, commenting on other recent developments in the region, from the deployment of the THAAD missile defense system in South Korea, to the approval of a naval base on the island of Jeju, the professor noted that it’s extremely important not to get lost in the details of this ruling.
“A legal decision in the Hague is one thing – it’s a trivial issue, and should lead to bilateral discussions. The other more serious issue is the militarization of that entire region, which incidentally is also related to the militarization of Eastern Europe by NATO; it’s the same process, and is directed against China, Russia, Iran and North Korea; those are the four so-called rogue states defined in US foreign policy,” Chossudovsky concluded.
Shining_brow:
Yep.... It's America's fault that the Chinese broke the agreement about not building on those shoals. And for putting an oil rig in Vietnamese waters....
Englteachted:
You can't argue reality to people who live in wonderland. I give up.
A social media connection today posted something like "remember to pay taxes, it is more important now than ever to stand together".... I guess Xi's rule is back to wanting German cars and needs the funds for that.
