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Q: A good friend just lost his baby in China to a forced abortion. When will China respect human life?

9 years 38 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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I am guessing it will be some years. I see nothing in the society that could turn into respect for life, perhaps it is still going in the wrong direction. 

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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What do you mean forced abortion?

Under family pressure or under the law?

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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I once saw a documentary about a chimpanzee pack. A low-ranking female was pregnant, and unexpectedly gave birth to twins. Her pack was expecting her to have a baby, and accepted it. But when 2 high-ranking females saw that she gave birth to TWO babies, they approached her to kill the infants. The high-rank chimps anticipated that the low-rank female would gain more influence in the pack due to giving birth to 2 babies, so sought to prevent that. The low-rank female wisely climbed up a high tree with babies in hand.
Then, one of the most disturbing moments I ever witnessed on TV: The 2 chasing females held out their hands in a loving gesture directed at the fugitive mother. The narrator explained their intention: "Don't worry, we love you. You are part of our family. We just want to kill your babies."
The fugitive mom kept her distance, and eventually the chasing females returned to the pack. The fugitive mom observed the situation for a while, and after half an hour decided to rejoin the pack. The 2 chasing moms had come to accept the 2 new babies, and were no longer murderous of intent. The new mother let the whole pack hold and play with the new babies. All of them! Another disturbing moment in TV viewing for me.
How does this relate to China? I'd say, hide in the countryside during legal abortion time, if you can't pay the 'fine' for your extra baby. These people are no better than the chimpanzees. But they (usually) will not kill the babies once they have human rights. I've heard of extremely late term forced abortions, but those are miscarriages of justice. No pun intended.

Robk:

Jeez, that does sound a lot like China...

 

Good things they have the face system to save them from shame because if I lived in a culture that was pretty much like monkeys I think I would go bananas. 

 

 

9 years 38 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

No, Chinese society is so much better than a chimpanzee pack. You see, after half an hour, the murderous high-ranking females just had to accept that the low-rank mom had gained influence with her twins, and loved them as their own kin, which they essentially were. Here in China, high-ranking people have this nifty system called laws, which they arbitrarily implement for low-ranking citizens. Years after an illegal 2nd child is born, the higher-ups are still actively disadvantaging the families of their lessers. China has figured out that education and hospitals are also intended to prevent people moving up the ladder. Isn't it great? Mao Zedong was also obsessed with staying in power, so maybe this is the society he intended to create. China is one big happy family!

9 years 38 weeks ago
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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Who forced the abortion? When will Hulk add pertinent details? 

 

Thank god China allows abortion. When will anti-abortion people respect women's lives?

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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That's just wrong... 

 

Personally, if someone forced my wife to abort a baby you would read about a crazy foreigner then blew up an abortion clinic (or hole in the ground, whatever they are) and murdered like 30 people that kidnapped and forced her in abortion. 

 

And while you are reading it, I would be in Thailand sipping a margarita. 

 

Vengeance is a dish best served ice cold. 

ScotsAlan:

That's a silly think to post in this day and age Robk.

 

Irrespective of what country you are posting it in.

 

See what I mean

9 years 38 weeks ago
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bill8899:

That makes sense. Parents force an abortion so you kill other people at an abortion clinic. Nice.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Robk:

Who said anything about PARENTS forcing an abortion. 

 

I meant those vans that drive up and black bag someone's wife and drag them to have their baby force aborted while you are wondering where the hell your wife is at... 

 

The Family Planning Services or whatever they call themselves...

 

Come one dude. 

9 years 38 weeks ago
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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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I never heard of forced abortions. One of my friends was a young woman that had 2 children, she had to give one up. I'm not saying I agree with this. She told me that if I ever wanted a child that I should adopt and she would help me find one.

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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I still have not been able to track down this documentary, was shown recently at film festivals, but alas, not in the PRC (Poorly Run Cinemas) 

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/mothers-ma-ma-di-quan-635013

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Can't provide details while they're still in China. Suffice to say, both mom and dad are leaving soon.

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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I will be flamed big style for this.... but here goes.

 

This is the biggest difference I have seen between culture  here compared to the west.  Because children here seem to have been a commodity here historically, the way to punish an adult is to deprive them of his/her child. In other words, his/her pension.

 

You know, it is just possible the one child rule here has saved billions of children from abject poverty, squalor and abandonment.

 

Imagine if typical poor uneducated farmer couple could have as many babies as they liked. I am sure it would be a case of " Urgh another girl.... throw her down the well". Or " Oh we have a son at last, sell the 2 girls to that man in the next village".

 

Consider school bus crashes. They are normally in the country, and the outrage does not seem to be about the actual kids dying, it's about the parents losing their child.

 

But because the number of children per couple are limited, Chinese families are starting to cherish their kids. China has little emperors rather than legions of unwanted child beggers

 

At home, I often heard people say there are too many people in the world. Famine in Africa?.......... "give them condoms". I am sure every has heard someone say this.

 

Well, China is doing something about population growth. And most Chinese I have talked  to to about the policy say it is unfair, but they understand the reason behind it.

 

How often have you heard " There are too many people in China"?

 

So they have a rule. One child for couples where one of the partnership have a sibling. Two children if they are both single children themselves.

 

People who work in the city with country Houkou get round the rules by having the second or third child in their hometown where the fine is lower. Because don't forget, you can have loads if you can pay the fine. Lot's of people get divorced because the fine for a single parent is less than for a married couple.

 

There is a law, but as always in China there is often a way around it.

 

So what happens if a couple already have two kids, have not paid the fine for the second, then get another on the way?  Then they say they will never pay a fine.  That's good of course, they are standing up for their human rights. But if everyone in China done that the population would double within a couple of decades.

 

Of course enforced abortions are abhorant.   I think they are very rare, and I think when it happens it is under exceptional circumstances.

 

I know a girl in her late 20's who has 5 siblings. Her parents are still paying the fines.

 

It's rather unfair of Hulk to present this question without any background to his story.

 

Right... flame away.

 

 

Hulk:

I'm downvoting you for being a psycho.

 

The friend is a foreigner. This is their FIRST baby. The woman's family disagreed with her marrying him. Where have we seen this before? OH right...

 

Until they're out of China, there's nothing else I'm going ot post here.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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bill8899:

I'm upvoting you for a reasonable, thorough and incisive comment.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Lord_hanson:

Hulk, I am sure you could have given more details in the original question without giving away their identities.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Lord_hanson:

Also why would the woman agree to this, even if her parents said she had to. I would have done something crazy when I found out. Blood have been spilled.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Hulk:

Because it was done against her will. She has completely disowned them already.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Lord_hanson:

At least those evil parents lost there pension now that she has left.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

It is a sad fact of life here that Chinese parents can be more despotic than the worst dictator. And filial piety makes the whole situation worse.

 

I might be a psycho Hulk, but I am not going to jump on a band wagon unless I have enough information about it.

 

Your friends have gone through a terrible ordeal, but it was at the hands of the girl's parents, and not the state.  So they will leave China because of this and possibly claim asylum. Will they put on their claim " Enforced abortion due to oppression by the State", or will it be " Fell out with my parents"?

 

Of course, people can blame the parent's mindset on the state, but that's really a bit tenuious.  In fact, I bet a significant proportion of foreign men married to Chinese women are today witness to a horrendous situation.......their wives are gradually changing into their mothers. And it all starts with the one month not washing tradition after their baby.

 

If I had been in the same situation as your friend I would have done the same as you had to do... get out of Dodge with the family to another part of China til the baby comes.

 

I still think your original question (or statement) was misleading.  It was a half story designed to sway opinion.

 

 

 

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Hulk:

ScotsAlan, loke, noballs, etc

 

It's blindingly clear now that you're a wumao, paid or otherwise.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

This was a tragedy, and everyone should show a degree of empathy. Scotsalan, you've played enough devil's advocate today, and your point is made. Now some empathy is called for, before you and Hulk are thew newest blood feuders on the boards...

9 years 38 weeks ago
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Lord_hanson:

Just because he expresses concern for the planets population problem it doesn't make him a wumao. Really needs to reduce its population.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

Ah. The womao card has been played. As it always is when someone has a differing opinion from the majority.

 

Yup, I could come online and if I had no balls I could just agree with what he who shouts loudest says. But my opinion is different. And as a lone voice of disagreement I am shot down by the very person who claims to hold freedom of speech closer to his heart than anyone else.  Anyone else see the irony ?

 

Yes, the case of Hulk's friend is tragic. I feel bad for him. And I am happy to shake hands with Hulk and put it down to experience. But I won't let anyone force me to close my mind. It took me too long to get it open....

 

That's the reason I come here to this forum.... because I want to open my mind fully and learn to respect all opinions.

 

 

9 years 38 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Unfortunately the one child policy in China will have grave consequences in the future due to the fact that the population is aging faster than the birthrate.  This will have a detrimental affect on the economy.   China will be stiffled with health care costs and lack of skilled workers as more people retire than replacements.  Japan has an even more drastic problem.  Forced abortions are common enough in China, especially in the countryside among poor families who can't pay up.  It's not rare.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

I agree with you Xin.

 

The next 50 years will be painful for all societies with aging population and decreasing birth rate. My home country Scotland is one. The population is going down and they are actively seeking migrants to go there to boost the economy. Unfortunately most migrants say it is too cold.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Chinese society and government has such little respect for life after birth, that it's little surprise there is even less respect for life before birth.

 

Still, it's not like China is alone in not respecting human life... just that it takes this to the extreme.

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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I know a Chinese woman in her mid-20s who can't procreate, she's the second of her parents and when she was a kid she was sterilized by doctors using some chemical in a syringe that probably damaged her body. Probably ordered by some official in charge of demographics.

 

That's how much China value life.

ScotsAlan:

Or maybe it was the result of some infection. Mumps can cause people to go sterile. At least it can with men.

 

Most Chinese people have no idea about what they are being injected with.

 

I know a woman in her mid twenties who was complaining about her regular fevers. She would get them once a month without fail. High temperature, stomach cramps.... so a visit to the hospital was needed and every time they would put her on a drip and tell her not to eat "hot" food. She just could not understand why she felt ill once a month.

 

True story. 

 

And that of course does come down to being the Governments fault. Because they are the ones that don't allow unmarried women to go on the contraceptive pill to regulate their periods. The pill is only for married women in China.

9 years 38 weeks ago
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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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china chose the one child policy to their detriment,

hindsight being 20/20, developed societies become more wealthy and people become selfish and have less children, if china had concentrated on wealth even for the countryside, i think this population problem would have cured itself like it has in japan and many other countries, i think there method will cause the transition to be a large fast drop from a cliff,  rather than a harmonious gradually declining small hill to the next hill until you reach a valley.

crashing the population in 50 years or slowing the crash to a century, maybe they just wanted to get it over as quickly as possible, but it sure cost a lot emotional heartache along the way.

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9 years 38 weeks ago
 
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