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Q: "Hapa"-tales doing the rounds; a heads-up to married expats with kids
Over a year ago, I was asking questions about mixed-race and male Asian identity, out of concern for my 2 half-Chinese sons. I started by asking about Hollywood whitewashing and bias against Asian men, but I was introduced to something much darker. I was warned about how easily half-Asians will feel inadequate, insecure and depressed. In particular, boys born from white male - Asian female (WMAF) relationships can become very turbulent, if their parents gave them bad messages.
There's a community of half-Asians, or hapas, who are making sweeping statements about how all white men who date (and marry and have kids with) Asian women, are racist beta losers who like bossing around weak Asian women. And the Asian women are white-worshiping sycophants with a hatred for men of their own race.
Anyway, this subculture is getting a lot of exposure in China now, and their stories are doing the rounds in Chinese online chitchat. Naturally because it serves the "don't date foreigners" narrative, it's becoming increasingly popular. Possibly actively promoted by the state, even. Chances are some insecure characters will gleefully confront your partner with the intentionally hurtful judgements. Don't be surprised if your partner gets blindsided by these stories one day. They are presented in a matter-of-factly way that resonates with Chinese.
I had a hard time getting the story out of my wife's head, even despite all the numerous ways we do not adhere to the stereotypes. My wife was so worried that our kids would end up feeling depressed and worthless, like this community of bitter hapas.
The main strength of the story, is that it's a half-truth myopically expanded and presented as a whole truth. Frequently true is assumed to be always true, to service the egos of those who perpetuate the story, validating their simple, self-serving world view.
I went online to talk to one of these hapas through his blog. Some of what I read was alarmingly true: There are white men who date Asian women because it makes them feel powerful to boss around a weaker, submissive woman. And there are men who resort to Asian women because they have trouble dating western women back home, instead taking advantage of novelty and popularity of foreigners in a homogenous country. There are men who date Asian women while professing the racial superiority of white people. All of that does occur, and the hapa I spoke with was the unhappy product of such a relationship.
But stuff gets thrown around randomly. Asian women who chose a white partner, get accused of never being attracted to Asian men, ever.
" Literally ask any Asian woman about this and she will admit to have attempted to cause as much pain as possible to an Asian man in her youth through her words and actions."
This is rarely true. It seems more like angsty, teenage projection than anything realistic.
During the brief moments the notion of a non-alt-right, more progressive, left-wing white male existing in a relationship, it is declared inconsequential:
“And to the left, well, most left-wing White men are still White men after all – they just go with the flow as long as it benefits them.”
Which is complete contradictory nonsense, since a major part of the guy's blog was to establish that white men with Asian women were all racial supremacists. But when they aren't, it doesn't matter. Really?! Reality bends but the narrative does not!
So, what do you do, when faced with this monstrous tale devaluing your relationship and children, and which is probably already troubling your partner?
I can only relay what I did, and warn that it is slow but effective.
I'm not Chinese, I can't go on Chinese internet and engage in a battle of words with the wumaos and other culprits who disseminate the xenophobic narrative. Neither do I know how to appeal emotionally in a way that hits home as effectively as these hatchet jobs do.
But you can go down the fact checklist.
When you have some assertions that were made, generalizations, you can compare your relationship with the stereotype.
Go down the list with your partner, assess honestly if you share any traits with the comically exaggerated stereotype. There should be enough differences to reassure your partner that your children are not doomed to repeat the misery these hapas feel.
- Do you identify with the alt-right?
- Do you prefer white women, but like the submissiveness of Asian women?
- Did you find an Asian woman because the women back home are hard to get, of keep hold of?
- Does your wife worship white men?
- Has she never been attracted to an Asian guy, ever?
- Does she dislike her child(ren)'s Asian features?
and so on and so forth.
In my case, I could go through the major points step by step with my wife, and it became increasingly clear we are not like this stereotype at all. It still took her a while to completely let go of the story.
You can find a blog at longingfordeath.wordpress.com
It's only viewable upon request, though
It serves as an excellent example of what goes on in the troubled mind of one of these turbulent hapas.
6 years 15 weeks ago in Family & Kids - China
A couple of my messages sent on longingfordeath's blog:
I’m a white father of 2 half-Chinese boys, so I read your blog with interest and concern. But comments like these indicate a bias to me:
“And to the left, well, most left-wing White men are still White men after all – they just go with the flow as long as it benefits them.”
Here, you’re being ridiculous. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. So, I may not be a racist, but my skin privilege still makes my relationship racist. This is heavily overthinking things, to the point that you’re too invested in making a point, to allow reality to disturb your clear picture. I wonder if you even acknowledge the possibility of WMAF relationships NOT being motivated by insecurities.
Everywhere my wife and I go, we get signals that people see our relationship as a threat, and take a particular interest in what we do. People in China were unable to behave normally around me, and many people in Europe have a hard time behaving normally to my wife. Could it be, perhaps, that AMWF relationships receive more accepting ‘nonthreat’ responses (in the west), while WMAF relationships face a more resistant ‘threat’ reaction, because of the perceived sexual competition? You quoted studies about it yourself: AM & WF are from historically disenfranchized groups, while WM & AF are seen as attractive/desirable. People react to this, and not always positively, especially if the couple is already married with kids. This is a stress factor that WMAFs face, which AMWFs don’t deal with as badly.
Overall, I appreciate that you’re opposed to white supremacism, but I understand you are either oblivious or positive about Sinocentrist Han Chauvinism. Because you have hapa and non-hapa, Asian-looking friends now, who you must support. And hey, if the 50 cent army isn’t paying you to criticize Chinese women who like western guys, you’re missing out on a golden opportunity for profit. You lost the moral high ground long ago, anyway, when you started indiscriminately heckling innocent people for their choice of partner.
First reply I received:
""Thanks for this. I will repost this on /r/hapas as a perfect example of the horrific racist parenting that exhibits all of the qualities I mention. Check /r/hapas for your post. It’s a big sub.""
My response:
I saw it. That’s a lot of hate, not to mention false assumptions about me and my wife. It seems you’re not engaging me in discussion seriously, at all. You’re just out to get more strokes from your hate-filled circle jerk on reddit. It looks thoroughly undignified, the self-destructive hole you are digging. I did read about your family history, and the worrying trend of nazis and other extremists finding Asian women, which I also observed. But you are resolved in lumping me into your enemy image. I was hoping I could learn something about your background, which could help me better prepare my own children for challenges in life. But it seems your blog can only serve as a cautionary tale. My sons look very white, too, so you probably hate them. I hope you can let go of your static perceptions of value one day, despite what your parents taught you (you seem to identify yourself within the judgement system they imposed on you), accept people who are different, and judge them for their words rather than appearance. What you say matters, and what you have said to me has lowered my regard for you.
Next response really showed that their only focus is on racial appearance:
""Elliot Rodger looked white as a child too. Your sons are fucked. I’ll be seeing them here or on /r/hapas in 15 years. In a way, your children answer to me. ""
I replied:
So, you are effectively saying that your static identity matters more than childraising? That any white father is the exact same as your neonazi dad, with unavoidable results? I’m impressed you can believe that with a straight face. Maiohmy on INTJf recommended your blog to me, because she believed it had some insights into mixed heritage identity I was asking about, for my kids. But there really is nothing here. Race is all that matters to you – people are judged by static identities in your racist worldview. I’m white so I’m bad, you’re hapa so you’re a victim.
No, my kids aren’t fucked. They have me as their dad.
Final reply:
""They're fucked.""
My closing comments, perhaps of use if you do end up in a discussion about this stuff. Or maybe of use if your children ever risk developing this insecurity:
""Your blog is not indicative of openness. It’s a patchwork of cherry-picked articles and stories that serve your world view. You will not adjust your views when presented with contradicting information, you double down and become more extreme. Google the term Backfire Effect for an explanation of what your mind is doing.
Everyone has their own problems. Institutionalized racism also affects interracial marriages, especially WMAF. Every interracial couple is given zero respect for their relationship by people with static perspectives. Territorial racists (non-Asian women in the west, Asian men in Asia) make all WMAF relationships out to be based on unwholesome, deviant, perverted and exploitative impulses. Your views play into this stream of thought. In other words, interracial sex is tolerable, but interracial relationships are not deserving of the respect that same-race relationships are awarded. If you accept this, of course your mixed heritage is an abomination in the eyes of virtuous relationships.
Ask yourself, are your Mainlander friends truly leading you on the path to truth? Your opinions serve their xenophobic agendas, and you are getting validation from them. Not to mention a sense of belonging you clearly crave. Your turbulent hapa friends are getting views and exposure in conservative Asian communities, who appreciate the xenophobic conclusions your rants lead to. But they are only using you for their purposes; you are only a dancing bear to them. You don’t want to know how many Mainland Chinese told me they read Mein Kampf and thought Hitler had the right sort of ideas. Their views are no more liberal than the holocaust deniers, anti-Muslim and white supremacists who pop by to insult you from time to time. Asian supremacism is still racial supremacism. You’re hardly a freedom fighter if your mission is to paint a group of people in an unfair light.
You seem somewhat reminiscent of certain feminists I’ve met. Although they claim to be opposed to being objectified by men, when you listen to them talking, it’s in fact their inability to get men to do things for *them*, while men more readily do things for other women who are seen as high value objects of desire. You’re not offended by the RACISM, as you claim to be, you’re in fact offended by being VALUED LOW ON THE RACIAL HIERARCHY due to your background. You ascribe entirely to the imaginary race war that your father and mother imposed on you; you don’t see yourself as anything more than your background, and you just blame your parents for not aligning their child’s racial background with the ignorant beliefs you now dutifully follow. I can’t even fathom the hilarity of your chosen course of action… A willing racial supremacist born into identity confusion! What a farcical existence, and what a sad tale that you can’t find other meaning to your existence… “Mom, dad, if I am the superior race, why am I mixed race? Who and what am I? Am I good or am I bad? You need to give my life clarity, daddy! Mommy, why did you create me?!” Hahahaha! Shame on you for being this stupid, “victim”.
biggj123:
I understand your concern for your children. No one want their kids to grow up feeling like these kids do. Word of advice though.. don't raise your kids in china....or america....dont teach then to have victim mentality. The world is changing...by the time your kids are ordered people will be more excepting of these things....also the internet is poison...its unhealthy to be on the internet all the time...im usually not on the internet that often...pass few weeks I've been home alone and bored...but I notice I feel more aggravated and just plain mean when confronted with people on the internet....its not healthy at all...for anyone...expecialy sites like this..where you are confronted with trolls all the time...its almost like you turn into a troll too...any place where people can comment to one another annonomously...is pure poison to mind. Just remeber the internet and reality are 2 differernt things...dont like the 2 merge togehter... My wife is home tomorrow and we are done with the internet..other then for good stuff...
coineineagh:
@biggj I hear what you are saying, and definitely the internet is rife with delusions and bile everywhere. Sadly for us, we have a business where we rely on communicating with people in China. So stuff gets passed on to us, and we have to listen to all sorts of rumours because they're customers. I guess this entire thread is born out of our habit of nipping nasty rumours in the bud before they start to hurt us financially. In this case, emotionally, but the principal is the same.
I use Reddft a lot, normally the China sub and related subs. I generally avoid R/hapas as the racist against white men winds me up, what with being a left leaning libtard happily married to a Chinese lady.
There's a load of bitterness there, similar to what Ambi posted recently about the guys giving up with women. I struggle with both these contexts to understand whether their bitterness and hatred comes from. Actually with these men I can see it....neanderthals who can't understand why women don;'t like their type. For these bitter Hapas kids it does make me wonder if they, unfortunately, are the offspring of racist/misogynistic white males who badly affected their male kids
coineineagh:
They blame their parents entirely for their state of mind, and there is definitely some truth to it. But the blatant disconsideration of one's own responsibility to find meaning and purpose in life, baffles me too. There's only so much blame you can lay at your parents feet, then it's time to move on and make the most with what you've got. These hapas are resolved to continue shouting "unfair" to life, hoping for either God or some social justice movement to set things right for them.
coineineagh:
"neanderthals who can't understand why women don;'t like their type." - that's the whole thing, really. The passivity and shameless entitlement shines through. They want to be a male "hot chick", having the opposite sex interested in them just for their static identity - their racial appearance. The author described in his blog how he looked white when he was very young, and everyone said he was so handsome. Then as he matured, his Asian features emerged, and people started mistaking him more and more for a fullblood Chinese. So, now he's complaining about not getting adoration for his now-absent foreign appearance. Pathetic, really. Most men have to do something to earn a girl's attention and love - Asian-looking male hapas are whining that they don't get girls as easily as white guys do in Asia.
I understand your concern for your children. No one want their kids to grow up feeling like these kids do. Word of advice though.. don't raise your kids in china....or america....dont teach then to have victim mentality. The world is changing...by the time your kids are older people will be more excepting of these things....also the internet is poison...its unhealthy to be on the internet all the time...im usually not on the internet that often...pass few weeks I've been home alone and bored...but I notice I feel more aggravated and just plain mean when confronted with people on the internet....its not healthy at all...for anyone...expecialy sites like this..where you are confronted with trolls all the time...its almost like you turn into a troll too...any place where people can comment to one another annonomously...is pure poison to mind. Just remember the internet and reality are 2 different things...dont let the 2 merge together... My wife is home tomorrow and I am done with the internet..other then for good stuff...I assumed this place was a place to ask question and get answers and help people....its not that at all...its just a hate filled cluster fuck.
The shit people say to each other on the internet, they would never say that to each if they were face to face. That goes for me too...Im a very easy going person and calm in real life..but yet on the opposite on the interent...its strange...it brings out the worst in me. So imagine what it does to these poor kids....
coineineagh:
In a way, you learn more about people over the internet. How they feel, what they care about, their fears and insecurities. I'm dismissive-avoidant, so my insecurity led me to distance myself from people at a young age, as a defense mechanism, to balance the chaos. I didn't start being interested in understanding people until my thirties. Honestly, the internet helps me understand people's motivations more. Sure, it opens you up to all their vitriol, but for me it's about as taxing as regular social interaction. Don't be dissuaded by all the angry noises, look at where they're coming from, where they're going to with their thoughts, and learn why they feel this way. It helps you identify worthwhile people IRL, and chumps who are only throwing out their insecurities as 'exploit-me-please' gimmicks. With people, many of us attach the fishing hooks to ourselves; you only need to see the lines, to reel in the catch. Example: Think of all the fake politicians tickling asses with "foreigners bad we good"-rhetoric, raking in poor people's votes and utilizing them for corporate tax breaks.
Is this thread available on Kindle?
I want to download it in an easier to read format.
coineineagh:
Heh, not sure if that's serious, or making fun of my longwinded writing style... and doesn't ECC have a "phone-friendly" viewing option? I noticed it today.
Just another way for Chinese to feel superior.
coineineagh:
Eh. My responses make no sense if the original post gets edited.
I have two kids here and NEVER had these issues, never, my son is 12 now and my youngest 6, the only issues was my youngest getting confused about the language when he was three and made his own alien dialect haha.
Man don't over think or worry too much, don't buy into this junk, you are far far too into this, you are making this a reality that isn't real and thus you are finding people who are like you having a delusional fantasy.
coineineagh:
I "overthink", yes. It's my personality style; how I deal with insecurities. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I wasn't anticipating possible problems for my family, well in advance. I strive to understand things around me, to find order/predictability/control in an ocean of chaos. I don't expect everyone to be like me, or value/appreciate my ideas. That you have a different approach to life, I can respect. What I can't accept, is being accused of "having a delusional fantasy", simply because of the way I think and talk. I get what you are saying. To paraphrase Nietzsche: ""He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."" But please acknowledge that I have some resilience. You are too quick to call me a monster, just for discussing a dark topic.
Regardless of all this hap hazard bullshit and the undertones of insult from all sides.
One out of five females on the planet is Asian or Asian descent, females fuck everything and everybody and can choose anyone to fuck. This is going to create offspring with all races, religions, and countries. If you don't like the numbers or the results, go to another fucking planet. Children of mix marriages, whatever or how ever you want to define this, have prospered and had children of their own for centuries and will be doing so long after our forgotten diatribes of hate don't even register in history books.
coineineagh:
Awesome rant. Mega cool. I was only trying to phrase a response in a way that will adress insecurities with your partner or children. I'll try my way, and hopefully my family will say "thanks dad, I feel a lot better about myself now'. By all means try your angle of 'in the grand scheme of things, your feelings don't matter'. Those kinds of parental/teacher's advice always helped me deal with being bullied so well. I'm being sarcastic.
ambivalentmace:
I do have a 3 year old girl that I am teaching not to care what anybody thinks or says about her by watching her dad never care about peer pressure and always going my own way. If she picks up half of my personality of travel the world, make money where the money is and don't complain that life is unfair, change your life, location and job whenever it's necessary and make sure you can do many different jobs and strive not just survive. I could not wish for anything more in an offspring.
"Possibly actively promoted by the state" - I suspected....
http://answers.echinacities.com/question/have-you-guys-seen-creepy-blog-...
I'm almost 2 years late to that discovery!
... and I just discovered that I commented on it at the time. So, when I was reintroduced to the blog last year, I didn't realize it was the same old blog. Embarrassed now.
If the other guy figures I'm superior to him/her because I have white skin, that is their problem. I will say I married a Chinese woman because I perceived that she commanded independence a self confidence that I liked in a woman. I only found out later that she is very different from the average Chinese woman. I am an old guy with a good profession. That made it difficult to find someone back home. These guys your talking about are just making excuses for there lack of "whatever."
coineineagh:
For me, my regard for my wife has grown and changed, and I've had to acknowledge that my initial expectations of family life were wrongheaded, and needed adjusting. My first impressions of my wife were naive, uninformed and even partly based on stereotypes. There was some shock and disappointment on both sides, because of our expectations. But we stayed together and learned to appreciate one another. Even the demanding family can be both a blessing and a curse. After my mother died in late 2016, I've come to see my wife's parents as my own. They make mistakes and bad decisions from time to time, but their focus on the prosperity of our family can be trusted, a stark difference from the histrionic individualists in my actual family. I'm happy to live together with my in-laws in the future, but my own family isn't useful for building up anything but ego strokes.
It seems you almost glossed over the most important thing in the whole pile of BS that the guy was going through (you did mention it, and expressed it, but didn't mention taking it to its fullest conclusion).
He's only seeing race as the only factor in his parents - and all other non-same relationships.
How do you deal with it? You show your kids that you love and respect your wife for the person she is. And that she loves and respects you for the person you are. As equals. For each others bodies, personalities, intelligence, interests, etc etc etc.
You show that race had nothing to do with it (other than having some influence in how you look).
Treat people as people... the way lefty-retards tell us we should 
There are arseholes all over the world. IF they have kids, they don't suddenly become wise and intelligent. It just means they are arsehole parents. That's what that kid got! If you don't respect arseholes, then don't respect arsehole parents - even if they're yours!
coineineagh:
I totally agree with you. In fact I did discuss it on that guy's blog. But my texts are already so longwinded, I decided to skip the copy-paste of the philosophical portion here. But since you've introduced the concept,here's my take. Copy-pasted:
I’ll take one last try to break through your static nature beliefs: Nature vs Nurture. Nature is straightforward, simple and accessible, while acknowledging Nurture is tiresome, complicated and involved. It requires effort.
To exaggerate, for clarity:
Believers in Nature-type arguments believe in static reality, as fixed as a painting. They see reality as depicted in a “final state”, and draw on concepts of origin, belonging, and unchanging identity to rationalize their beliefs. The current de facto state of affairs creates a sense of de jure legitimacy. People are entirely responsible for their life achievements, and entirely deserving/accountable for the problems they have their lives. Common catchphrases: These are the way things are. It’s the nature of things. It’s how I am. I’m just stating the facts. It’s genetic / natural selection / evolution (the meaning of these terms has been heavily distorted).
Believers in Nurture-type arguments believe in an emergent reality, as malleable as clay. They see reality as a snapshot of a dynamic event, and allow for a great deal of leeway for environmental influences/events, agency for improvement, and unrealized possibilities. They do not agree that the current de facto state of affairs gives any de jure legitimacy whatsoever, because stasis is effectively stagnation. People are usually only partly responsible for their achievements and failures in life, and it would be unfair to hold them entirely accountable without considering circumstances. Common catchphrases: Things change. People change. It’s a skill I gained through experience. It’s how I am *now*. Never give up on others. That was then, this is now. You never know.
Notice the difference between the powerful, hard-hitting allure of Nature-catchphrases, and the wishy-washy, indefinite uncertainty of Nurture-catchphrases? Simplicity is alluring. Clarity is attractive. Indecisiveness and uncertainty seem weak. But it is nothing of the sort; only the mentally resilient even attempt to apply nurture considerations in their world views.
From my descriptions, it should be obvious that I lean far towards Nurture*. I often find myself arguing against Nature-type reasoning from people like yourself, strongly advocating Nurture. Of course, reality is a mix of both Nature and Nurture. But if you are perceptive to these concepts, you will find that a large majority of people claim Nature arguments so matter-of-factly, that they mistake it for truth and reality.
Your blog is not indicative of openness. It’s a patchwork of cherry-picked articles and stories that serve your world view. You will not adjust your views when presented with contradicting information, you double down and become more extreme. Google the term Backfire Effect for an explanation of what your mind is doing.
Shining_brow:
Did you get a response that was much better than "Awww yeah? Is not!" ???
Better question - I know why you went there (to the site). I'm wondering why you still try to change them? (although, I get it if others like yourself end up there, and only see 1 - bad - side.)
coineineagh:
It's radicalization, plain and simple. I don't want it affecting my kids in the future. These unbalanced, turbulent egos are already creating a racist subculture, and they're getting support from xenophobes who like the conclusions they work towards. In this case, hapas saying "Asian women shouldn't date white guys" and Mainlanders' "don't date foreigners"-sentiment.
This is an excellent thread, and one I very much want to get involved in.
Sorry for my absense over the past few weeks. New Year and all that.
Is it an age thing? Older Chinese tend to be of the 'touch the hem of his her garment' mentaity.
Tonight, in my urban village, me and my daughter went to a local tea shop to play with jigjaws. I do this because I want to get her away from the confusion of home. Away from distractions. Jigsaw time.
But here is the thing. The kids of the couple who own the teashop, same age as my daughter, have never seen a jigsaw. So my daughter automatically assumes the Ivanka position... how can you not know what a jigsaw is?
Factor in tiger moms.
My wife is a tiger mom. A reluctant one.
Difficult to explain. She wants our daughter to have fun, but pressure from the MIL ....
work work work.
study study study.
I prefer the buy the crap 10 rmb doll from the corner shop option.
Because I can teach her why it is crap.
'technical ... tiger'. 
coineineagh:
My wife gets these sudden impulses, probably based on something she heard or read, about how to turn around some problem blown out of proportion. An hour of Chinese lessons every evening, so our kids don't lose their language skills living in Germany. Cut all sugar out of the diet, because sugar is poison. Buy a ton of Chinese kid's books to keep them interested. Take care of a pet to make kids happier. A trampoline and a garden bathtub. A discipline and reward system. Healthy snacks. Raise geese, ducks and chickens in a suburban garden... The trouble is in the follow-through ; I often end up doing damage control, cleaning up the mess. Perhaps I'm not as enthusiastic as I'm expected to be when another clever plan is announced to me, but it invariably ends in more work and burdens for me. And the intended result often doesn't even get achieved. The poultry was supposed to make her feel more "at home" in Germany, but it got us in trouble with the landlord, and just reminded her how she isn't free to do what she wants here. I kind of joke to myself, that maybe she thinks the problem is that I have too much free time (I really don't), for which each new clever scheme offers a new type of remedy.
ScotsAlan:
Ha ha coin... you had chickens on your balcony... in Germany. Bet that went down not well :-)
coineineagh:
in a garden. We had a coop and perimeter fence and everything. Our rental contract banned feeding pigeons or raising large pets indoors without notifying the landlord. Luckily, farm animals outdoors was an oversight...
