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Q: Is Holy Global Education of Beijing a good or scam shool to work for?
I need feedback ASAP. They made me a decent offer of 20,000 per month but the way they want to pay me makes me hesitate from signing a contract. Please let me know if this is normal for China: They will pay me 10,000 a month for my probation period (90 days) and then pay me 15,000 a month until the last month when they will give me a balloon payment of the withheld money they say is required in case they have to fine me for being late or absent.
Also they say I will not get a Z visa for 90 days - when my probation period is completed. Teaching hours are 20 per week and they give 2 hour lunch breaks. Also, am I entitled to get a contract in English? Thank you for your feedback ladies and gents which I hope is quick. They want me to sign up with 72 hours.
That whole payment scheme rings alarm bells for me. And the law requires that you have a Z visa and work permit. There is definitely something wrong with that school and I suggest you quietly ask the receptionist for the names and telephone numbers of the other foreign teachers working there and give them a call. I have a gut feeling this will turn out to be another Chinese black ghost school.
Stiggs:
Yes, ask for other teacher's contact details for sure. For any job, not just this one.
There should be no need to quietly ask the receptionist though, it's something any reputable school should provide if asked.
Probation period for a 1 year contract is 30 days under Chinese labour laws.
They must apply for your work permit immediately. You are not supposed to work, even during a probation period, without one. (BTW - if you're already working in China then it is NOT a Z-visa you get. It is a work permit)
A contract in English means nothing. they should provide you with a dual language contract but it is the Chinese part that is legally binding.
Whether you accept the way they want to pay you is your choice. The 5000/month being held back in case of "fines" sounds dodgy! If were absent or late then they should make any deductions from the next months salary. This sounds like a way of keeping you there until the end of the contract.
icnif77:
Do you have link for this statement of yours:
"A contract in English means nothing. they should provide you with a dual language contract but it is the Chinese part that is legally binding."
Not true by my experience!
1. If that would be true, every foreigner working in China should have Chinese translator!
2. Translation of the Contract is issuer's responsibility!
3. School in Fuk, Xinjiang asked me to sign a paper in Chinese with 600 Rmb written on it. As I asked for the paper's explanation in English, Chinese teacher couldn't tell me what is it all about.
I took paper to Chinese buddy, who told me it is a bill for yearly garbage disposal. Contract stated School is responsible for apartment and utilities cost, so I asked SAFEA for their advice.
School's excuse was 'Contract version in Chinese doesn't match English translation!'.
SAFEA 'ruled' I am not responsible for the utility bill.
Hotwater:
I don't have a link. What I have is personal experience as the General Manager of a WFOE who deals with the company lawyer on a regular basis.
He checks our employee employment contracts (he provided the first one, for me!).
ALL our employment contracts are dual language, Chinese then English, and he was very clear with me. The English paragraphs are for reference only, it is ONLY the Chinese written in the contracts that is legally binding.
Hotwater:
But as you asked for a link here's one. End of the first paragraph is what you are looking for
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/china/working/employment/employment-contracts
icnif77:
This part is very argumentative:
"The document is written in Chinese. An English version can be requested too, but the Chinese version is the binding document in the event of a dispute."
How can foreigner understand Contract written in Chinese, i.e. 'how can Chinese version be binding in dispute with foreigner?', and in order to make Contract understandable to foreigner, Contract must be translated to foreign language by issuer, so it's issuer's responsibility for (in)-correct translation.
Very argumentative ... ---> most likely 'TIC!'
Hotwater:
The Chinese version is binding as that's what the law says!
Its difficult for us. With a good company then the English version will be a direct translation (our contracts are) but unscrupulous companies might lie in the translated contracts. Good thing is that the Chinese contract has to comply with the labour laws. If it doesn't you can get it overturned but your need a lawyer or SAFEA to help with that.
Swirl:
Just curious, can you have a clause in a Chinese contract that says, "the English version of this contract shall be binding in the event of a dispute"?
icnif77:
@Hot: 'your link isn't Law, at least I don't understand it as Chinese law, but translation of Chinese thingy'. Chinese version of the Contract can't be binding in a law suit against foreigner! I'll talk about that with Chinese lawyer at my first chance.
If they are bozos at local SAFEA any kind of Contract will go through. I am now in the similar position: local SAFEA accepted Contract ('cause big guanxi owner), and I told her such Contract is most likely invalid.
She doesn't back-up, and I am looking at the labor lawyer.
She's reading the Board, bleach and me sti-pud, who told her about, so I can't be too detailed!
Hotwater:
I'm not going to waste anymore time on you icnif. You only believe what you want to do so no point trying to explain anything to you.
icnif77:
You don't understand the Law! Legally binding document in Chinese Court doesn't mean foreigner is responsible for something written in Chinese, which differs from English version.
It means, Chinese Court will read and accept only documents between parties in Chinese language, but if the Chinese Contract state foreigner must complete 25 hours per week and in English translation of the same agreement is written only 20, foreigner won't/can't be responsible for the Chinese version of the Contract or mistranslation to English, buTT ... yeah, 'Chinese court will accept only documents in Chinese' ... where did you read that? Ohh, WFOE manager, woo hoo!
Stop parading here 'cause I can see through you!
Here's the link, you can knock yourself out for free:
http://www.shanghai-attorney.com/WFOE
Shining_brow:
No Icnif... in any country, the legally binding contract would be the one written in the local official language. It would be (and IS) the responsibility of the person not fluent in that language (and, indeed, 'legalese') to get a lawyer to check the contract, and to verify that the translated version is true and correct.
Additionally, the 'foreign language' version of the contract should also be translated by an officially designated translator/translation company.
So, in the situation that the Chinese doesn't match the English, and you get taken to court for not following it as per the Chinese contract, you would lose that case - but have the opportunity to sue the translation company... (hahahahaha... yeah, good luck with that one!)
However, SAFEA would be able to sort out what's legal and what's not (one year's garbage bill probably isn't), and also would be in the situation to look at playing nice to the foreigners, to keep us happy (on fairly small things). Any big contract disputes (eg, thousands of RMB) and there's not much they could do if the English and the Chinese were different
icnif77:
@Shining: 'it comes down to 'whoever was responsible for translation of the document.'
Usually translator of the doc. is Co. issuing the Contract, and it bears whole responsibility for the incorrect translation.
At big Contracts, both parties most likely do their own translations, but at our small example, party B cannot be responsible, because issuer's Contract differs from translation to employee's language and issuer provided the translation.
Meaning of the quote on above link isn't about responsibility of foreigner in Chinese Court. It is statement, that Chinese Court will accept only documents written in official, Chinese language, i.e. 'legally binding' or in diff. words 'apply to Chinese written Law'.
We're treading the water, but I'll ask Chinese lawyer about it and get back to you!
Here is a quicky: http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gp_solo/2011/april_may/drafting_multiple-languagecontractswhenyouonlyspeakenglish.html
Drafting multiple language Contract is issuer's responsibility, when dealing with foreigner, so party A bears responsibility for the incorrect translation. But, official language, i.e. 'legally binding' is Chinese version, i.e. Court will not translate docs. written in other language, but will accept docs. only in Chinese. ... My point above was 'Chinese version can't be legally binding to foreigner, if translation was provided by Chinese Co. (and translation doesn't match!). If that would be 'legally binding', there's another word comes to mind: 'misleading'.
'Don't tell me about the Law, because I know the Law!' is quote from some flick..
That whole payment scheme rings alarm bells for me. And the law requires that you have a Z visa and work permit. There is definitely something wrong with that school and I suggest you quietly ask the receptionist for the names and telephone numbers of the other foreign teachers working there and give them a call. I have a gut feeling this will turn out to be another Chinese black ghost school.
Stiggs:
Yes, ask for other teacher's contact details for sure. For any job, not just this one.
There should be no need to quietly ask the receptionist though, it's something any reputable school should provide if asked.
I wouldn't go near that job personally.
The no visa for 90 days... that would have you working illegally for 90 days.
The withholding 5k a month from your salary means you'd be trusting them to pay you a large sum of your money, just before you presumably leave which would give you no time to do anything if they don't pay you.
Some schools will make up some bullshit about you breaking rules or something in the month before you leave so they can shaft you out of your bonus. There would be nothing to stop them doing that to you but instead of just losing the bonus you'd be losing all the money they're holding from your salary.
Swirl:
Yes, that is a very sneaky salary plan they have there. I would love to see their contract!
I agree with Stiggs. From my experience about half of all teachers leave their gigs before the year is over and if that is the case you will lose serious bucks. Is this some holy-roller religious school that teaches Bible school or something? What's with the name? Did you google these people yet? As soon as I get my VPN, I will take a look, I can't find shit on Baidu or even Yahoo.
Not to mention, 20 hours per week, for 20K per month - is 250/hour. Not a hell of a lot of those jobs going around!
And you have only 72 hours to sign or not..???
Sounds dodgey all around!
If you think it still might be worth the effort, tell them you need to take the contract to a local lawyer you know to have it translated and all the clauses worked out if they're legal or not.
Oh, do they mention anything about tax? Is that 20K before or after tax? Is the reduced payment before or after?
Anyway, as the others have said, there's already illegal stuff in that contract.... do you think they wouldn't try to shaft you in other ways???
B4UGO:
They said my tax in China is 20% of my gross pay. Is this correct?
icnif77:
http://www.shanghaihalfpat.com/income-tax-for-foreigners-in-china/
It is most likely shady, because of 'Holy' in their title.
Here is the link to Global Education Beijing:
http://www.languagecourse.net/school-global-exchange-education-center-be...
Decent School, but no 'holy' in their name.
Caution with 'holy'!
retiredinchina:
yes, given the communist party nationalism and tearing down over 8000 crosses on churches and Beijing being the lion's den of iniquity against religious faiths, putting holy on anything is the work of someone very isolated and naive, somebody very stupid, or a scam. I think i'm going with scam.
icnif77:
I was thinking about one or two Chinese teachers employed by Global get their own 'Holy Global' and then secure all necessary docs. (Z/RP/FEC) by the original Global and pocket the profit.
'Holy' would be 'click&bait' for some westerners coming to China for work.
Dragonbreath:
Not the same school. Your link goes to a Chinese language school for foreigners learn Chinese. If you have Google access can you get a website for "Holy Global Education"? Thanks.
icnif77:
It's shady, when School adopts similar name as other, bigger, well known School. Watch yourself at 'Holy'!
P.S. do you have anything else beside the name 'Holy' as an address?
Shining_brow:
Actually, they're bouncing off Global Education & Technology Group - http://www.gedu.org/
It's one of the largest IELTS/SAT/GMAT etc training schools, not far behind New Oriental (XinDongFang - XDF).
Gedu is legit, and I've met some of their teachers (and did my research with them).
icnif77:
Yeah, Global Education is blast Training center just looking at their link above, but 'Holy Global' isn't!
Kowtowing on the name is very suspicious. Stay away from Holy Global Education.
I was at Education First (EF) school in Fujian. I opened thread here and if you look at Yahoo-gle, you'll find it with English First, but Education First is some placement ring based in some city close to Shanghai.
What office hours and other job requirements do you have? Do they ask you to do sales and marketing activities as well. I can't believe such a small unknown school would really pay you that much unless they only planning on using you for 3 months? Maybe they just rotate teachers every three months at 10,000 a pop. This is way they could get twice as many teachers for their money! Did you ask them how many other foreign teachers work there? If any of your friends have VPN, ask them to check on google for you. There is no Holy Global Education listed in the Beijing Telephone Directory. This is not looking good.
B4UGO:
Yes, you are right. I had the contract translated and I have to do 10 office hours and 5 marketing hours per week. It also says that I must provide them a "testimonial video" and "letter of endorsement within my first thirty days of employment". I asked them for the web site address and they said it was "being updated", They had agreed that some of their foreign teachers would call me today, but so far no calls. According to the company summary I took from the office they are somehow connected to Peking and Cambridge Universities, which maybe balances some of the negative comments yes? I have another interview on Monday at Webb English so I will hold off signing any contract until I see what Webb offers.
retiredinchina:
cambridge could verify the bogus claim on their website, a lot of school throw there name around.
Shining_brow:
Web, while perhaps sucky, and will use you to the hilt, is at least legit. They won't pay anywhere near as much (even though you'll be working more hours
The one you're talking about sounds so dodgey that I'd never even consider it!
If it rings alarm bells, then why put yourself through the grief???
Also, references to Cambridge and Beijing are meaningless - especially without context! It's been demonstrated (by other users on this forum) that just putting names on things means nothing, and you may find that said (real) organisations might be VERY unhappy at having their names used publicly like this....
I call bullshit. I may be wrong.
After a Google search the exact same question comes up on at least two other ESL forums. All questions were asked within the last week. All questions were asked by new accounts with low post counts. All questions were similarly answered by similarly bogus looking accounts which then gave links to the dreaded CTFU and affiliates such as www.chinascamwatch.com, et al.
So yeah. Bullshit.
Dragonbreath:
Whatever... can you post the links you are talking about because I just checked chinascamwatch.com and chinascmwatch.org and only the second site opened for me and there is no mention of Holy Global Education.
nzteacher80:
Call the China Foreign Teachers Union. They will help you.
Dragonbreath:
I just searched the CFTU website and they have nothing on Holy Global Education neither. I also looked on whois.com and I cannot even find a website for this school. I think maybe it is one of those schools that may use many names and until we find a web site or address for them, it is not a place to recommend. I suppose it could also be a startup?
Swirl:
If you are talking about this thread at TEFL.net, it appears all of the users who commented are "Gold Members" with one or two year posting histories. http://www.tefl.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7432&sid=08ab7861cf737e65dedac8bca0978b35
Well, at least we know it is not a start-up but I still cannot find a website for them. My guess the real name of the company will be some crazy Chinese name like "Best Ad Holy Global English International School"!
Hotwater:
@ Dragonbreath. You can't have searched very far! Go into this page and scroll down. Eventually you'll find them listed.
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org/2012/12/china-foreign-teachers-union-posts-esl.html?m=1
Englteachted:
Definitely fishy, simply based on the fact that who couldn't figure this out themselves
I've just google searched them and NZteach is right. Latest warnings about them are very recent.
https://eslwatch.info/forum/china/586-scam-alert-holy-global-education-i...
http://www.tefl.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7432
https://www.scam.com/showthread.php?713864-FRAUD-ALERT!-Holy-Global-Education-English-in-Beijing-China-is-Black-Ghost-School-Scam
http://www.esl-jobs-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=15152
The dreaded CFTU had them listed a couple of years ago. Seems quite odd that suddenly this month there are warnings going up about them and then this topic......
Swirl:
Here's my guess. One of three things happened...
1) A bunch of teachers got burned and left creating an urgent need to recruit and since no website can be found a lot a people began asking questions
2) The company is expanding under a different alias name and is advertising under an old or non-existent name to hide past problems,
3) There may be a new owner who fired old staff who are angry as hell and set on exposing the school.
Whatever the story, if they can't give teachers a Z visa and the same salary every month, it is not a place where I would work. And as I mentioned before, it would be real hoot to see their contract.
I got something through Yahoo-gle:
- Is Holy Global Education in Beijing China for real or a real ...ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=...
Published Nov 18, 2016
Is Holy Global Education in Beijing China for real or a real scam?
- FRAUD ALERT! Holy Global Education English in Beijing China ...www.scam.com/showthread.php?713864-FRAUD-ALERT...
FRAUD ALERT! Holy Global Education English in Beijing China is Balck Ghost School Scam
- Beware of illegal "black ghost" schools like Holy Global ...www.reddit.com/r/ChinaJobs/comments/5drbz6/...
Beware of illegal "black ghost" schools like Holy Global Education and 329 others in China looking to hire foreign english TEFL teachers.
Ask them why the wording in the English contract is different from the Chinese contract.
Ask directly for contact phone numbers for the other FT's.
if they BS you, ask them why they won't answer your questions.
There are so many red flags with this company.
If you learn nothing from this, at least have a list of questions prepared that any reasonable employer will answer without hesitation.
Excellent legal website in Shanghai posts this response with regard to the validity of an English language contract in China. http://www.chinalawblog.com/?s=Chinese+language+contract. This agrees with our contract experience with Chinese manufacturers. Also, contract disputes resolving issues (manufacturing, but I have no experience with teaching contracts) under 1,000,000rmb have to go through Chinese Arbitration. Last I heard the 'winner' pays an amount equal to 25% of the awarded sum. Justice with Chinese characteristics.
I think Swirl, Dragonbreath, B4UGO and possibly others are the same poster.
that's a thingy in anon posting. Need IP-address-search software to be sure.
You're an idiot if you can't decide simply based on what's in front of you.
That "Also they say I will not get a Z visa for 90 days - when my probation period is completed." aside payment should be conclusive to avoid them and keep seeking employers who ensure you with the Z visa from the very first day of work.
icnif77:
That is illegal employment by Chinese law! One could be only hired for 3 months under this conditions and then laid off.
Helen Group from Hangzhou was doing the same, except I got 3-months F visa as start and after SAFEA pressed them, they got me on Z. 2011 or 12.
