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Q: How much does the treatment of foreigners change between 1st and 3rd tier cities?
Firstly I've got to make an assumption: 1st tier means cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, right? 3rd tier means the really underdeveloped cities I'm guessing. It's just one of those things I've never checked or paid attention to.
While I'm at it I don't know what Sino means either, but anyway, my question is based on that assumption, and the reason I ask is I've never spent any considerable amount of time in any of the first tier cities. 7 months in Shenzhen and 3 in Guangzhou but otherwise I've been in Liuzhou, Guilin, Beihai and Nanning my whole time. Not sure where those rate in the tier system, but I'm guessing probably 2nd, right?
I'm just curious how differently we 'old outsiders' are treated between those places where we're few on the ground and those places where we are relatively high in number.
I know that on my one and only visit to Beijing, which only lasted a week, I experienced the only countable instance of what I'd term racism in all my years here, that being being turned away from a hotel for being a foreigner. I nearly spat on their floor I was so pissed but otherwise it's been all good.
I did meet a western guy in Shanghai on one of my visits there who was mugged one night in the few short days I knew him, and it's these isolated experiences that make me ask this question.
I have to add here, I'm only really interested in actual occurrences, not impressions. I could easily say that every Chinese person I've encountered here has seen me as a foreign devil, but if they didn't say it it doesn't mean anything beyond assumption. That does remind me of a second clear instance of racism though, and one I've recounted on here before: during my brief stay in Shenzhen, another 1st tier city notably, I overheard an old man on the bus tell his granddaughter (I assume) that all foreigners are bad. She did not look convinced.
I can well imagine that as foreigners become thicker on the ground that their influence naturally becomes greater and the general impression of them becomes altered, I'm just curious as to what extent and how it effects the treatment of them by the general populace. As you can see from my examples, my expectation is of a negative trend in the treatment of foreigners in places where they become greater in numbers, though I'd be pleasantly surprised to hear of any examples suggesting it might be in any way otherwise.
There are only 4 tier 1 cities, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, Guangzhou. Tier 2 is all other major places, Chengdu, Tianjin, Hangzhou, Nanjing etc.... and provincial capitals. Tier 3 is smaller mid level cities like Beihai and Yantai. Tier 4 and 5 are small and very small places you probably haven't herd of unless you have been there or live close to them. There is no standardized criteria for this so there is some debate about which tier certain cities should be in. The only thing there seems to be agreement on is the 4 tier 1 cities.
I find the lower the tier the better I am treated. Having a foreigner there is still seen as special. I remember going to the bank in a tiny place in Hainan, would have been tier 4 or 5, I don't even know the name of the place. I went in, told them what I wanted, got the ticket and sat down to wait. A few minutes later the manager comes out, introduces himself to me and takes me into his office, offers me tea or coffee and asks how he can help. Another time in Zhumadian in Henan, I'm guessing tier 4, maybe 3. I was queuing to buy a bus ticket and the people in the queue insisted I go to the front. I tried to politely decline, but they insisted so I went to the front and got my ticket. This is the sort of special treatment you get in lower tier cities that you defiantly don't in Tier 1 places.
I find in Tier 1 cities I just get ignored and treated exactly like everyone else. It's exactly how it should be, after all there is nothing remarkable about me. I don't find I'm treated negatively in these places, just normally. And the special treatment in the lower tier places is sometimes nice, but sometimes too much and enough to make anyone uncomfortable.
first for defining tiers, not sure this is accurate but been told
tier 1, 10 million or more population
tier 2, 5-10 million
tier 3, 1-5 million
tier 4, less than 1 million
most tier 3 cities i have been in, changyi, zhuchang, gaomi, have been nice, not to expensive, people friendly, but occasionally i run into an old man or a middle age man that gives me a dirty look like why are you in my town, i usually give him the blank stare like "you think i want to be here" and its over. it happens about 3 or 4 times a year, and you still have the peasant nomad who comes to town and im the first foreigner he has seen not on his television, but those moments are every now and then, not as often as 6 years ago.
i still get strange looks in jinan, tier 2 i suppose, when i am on public buses, why is he on the bus instead of a car, i think chinese have no idea that cars are supposed to move smoothly and go very fast, they think traffic like china is everywhere in the world, its usually a waste of time to try and explain this so i dont bother even if they can speak english. i dont see as many foreigners as i use to in jinan,too many english schools competing for less students and less money, enforcement of the 5 year rule, many reasons for this i suppose. im still a novelty of attention in tier 3 but an annoyance in tier 2.
i have to confess, the longer im here the less i socialize so the angry experiences at banks, fights at bars, and many other altercations are behind me now, i simply dont bother with them anymore, life is too short to be pissed off everyday.
There are only 4 tier 1 cities, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, Guangzhou. Tier 2 is all other major places, Chengdu, Tianjin, Hangzhou, Nanjing etc.... and provincial capitals. Tier 3 is smaller mid level cities like Beihai and Yantai. Tier 4 and 5 are small and very small places you probably haven't herd of unless you have been there or live close to them. There is no standardized criteria for this so there is some debate about which tier certain cities should be in. The only thing there seems to be agreement on is the 4 tier 1 cities.
I find the lower the tier the better I am treated. Having a foreigner there is still seen as special. I remember going to the bank in a tiny place in Hainan, would have been tier 4 or 5, I don't even know the name of the place. I went in, told them what I wanted, got the ticket and sat down to wait. A few minutes later the manager comes out, introduces himself to me and takes me into his office, offers me tea or coffee and asks how he can help. Another time in Zhumadian in Henan, I'm guessing tier 4, maybe 3. I was queuing to buy a bus ticket and the people in the queue insisted I go to the front. I tried to politely decline, but they insisted so I went to the front and got my ticket. This is the sort of special treatment you get in lower tier cities that you defiantly don't in Tier 1 places.
I find in Tier 1 cities I just get ignored and treated exactly like everyone else. It's exactly how it should be, after all there is nothing remarkable about me. I don't find I'm treated negatively in these places, just normally. And the special treatment in the lower tier places is sometimes nice, but sometimes too much and enough to make anyone uncomfortable.
What? Hong Kong isn't a Tier 1?? WTF? I thought HK was... oh, never mind.
What about Taipei??? Surely that's a T1? Unless, of course, Taiwan is.... ok, I get it!
I agree with Estern's evaluation above, although I'm not sure that all capitals are indeed considered T2 - Nanchang is a right hole! And you'd also be putting Urumqi & Lhasa into that list - I'm not sure they'd actually qualify as 2's.
While you can get those locals who will treat you like royalty, there's also this idea you don't know much, and need help every step of the way. And a better target for rip-offs.
Also, the concept of 'western' when it comes to food is vastly different! Speaking of which, obviously, forget your western dining experiences.
Treatment in higher tier cities reflects a more civilised attitude and behaviour. You lose the star factor at the smaller cities, but gain so much in not being harrassed.
Shining_brow:
??? No... not only did spellcheck not pick it up, but a quick search shows that the 'h' is more common than the 'l'.
royceH:
Oh yeah I know. It's my typo but that's not what I was getting at. You know, Urumqi, Lhasa.... heheheheh. Very good. Nudge nudge...
Tier 1
Shanghai, invisible, rude people.
Beijing, rude people, attempted scamming, overt racism.
Tier 2
Nanjing, invisible, neither good nor bad treatment.
Tier 3
Changshu, some stares, rude behavior, mocking my Chinese level, switching to local dialect instead of using mandarin so that I can't understand them. Try to scam "free" English tutoring. Got hit by a car, while on my bike, in the bike lane, while stopped at a red light. The driver stopped to make sure his car wasn't too fucked up then left me in a pool of blood and bones. In a tier one it would have at least been caught on camera by the people standing around watching. In Changshu, they just stared. No cameras.
mArtiAn:
Sorry man but your description of getting hit by a car nearly made me spit out my food.
Janosik:
@Spider:
If getting hit by the car so the driver is supposed to compensate you (even though you were crossing the street on the red light and he had the green light)
So no wonder he went to check how is it with you. When you did not raise any requirements toward him so he simply left being absolutely happy...
(btw in the past there was a law that in case there is a car and bike accident so it's always the car mistake irrespective of circumstances - the law was changed already but the rule that the 'stronger' has bigger responsibility than the 'weaker' is still in place).
Otherwise I do not find people in Shanghai rude. Last week I was in Shanghai. I and two my Chinese friends went for the dinner with some drink and the only 'bad' experience I had with several expats trying to 'steal' the taxi we stopped - we let them win and stopped the next one ...
Tier 1: People leave you alone if you leave them alone (although you're ALWAYS being watched, scrutinized and compared)
Tier 2: Mixed bag (although you're ALWAYS being watched, scrutinized and compared)
Tier 3: Either you're the "rock star" they've dreamed of and/or a zoo attraction (although you're ALWAYS being watched, scrutinized and compared).
What about them pretty girls? Is it easier to pick them up in Tier1s where they are more used to foreigners and see a lot more foreigner/chinese couples? If they see many other Chinese girls being together with foreigners I guess they won't be so reluctant to date foreigners? Or is it perhaps easier in T3 where foreigners are a novelty? The negative side of trying to date in T3 is perhaps that people are still pretty traditional and so girls may be looked down on if they started dating a foreigner.
I am not sure about any of these, just guessing.
Janosik:
No, I do not think so.
The issue is what is the girl motivation to date you. It can be:
1) True love (provided you know each other and have t least one common language you both can use on advanced level).
2) Lust for exotics
3) Free English lessons (well not exactly free but not requiring money ...) accompanied with free Western food and life style
4) Escape from the 'poverty' - it's not that totally rare in China that the girls 'finance' their studies or other needs with their body (even though it's certainly not the majority) or that some of the girls simply goes for the foreign passport or at least green card/permanent residency in the West.
Generally dating the girl (for whatever the above mentioned or even other purposes) will be much cheaper in lower tier city than in first tier one.
Of course in lower tier city you will get much more attention and not everybody is able to take it (also your girlfriend gets frequently offended but usually in a way which will not allow you or her to protect her).
Pretty much then it all depends if the girl interest and yours is the same. If the girl is going for the marriage and you just for short term fun so lower tier city can be a bit tough (including the consequences).
If you go for the marriage so firstly try to understand what is your future wife's culture and in particular what are her intended playground (you may be surprised by many Chinese habits which your future wife will value over your relationship).
Anyway - usually to be very straight forward and open about your interests (whatever they are) will help you a lot - well, as long as you do not come over a person who simply outsmart you and those are in China plenty ...
I think this is really difficult question.
My job brought me to many places in China and I lived in 1st and 2nd tier cities for a longer period of time.
It all depends what you consider acceptable and what not so acceptable behavior.
For instance I totally do not care if people stare at me and I find rather amusing when people greet me on the street.
It also depends pretty much on your Mandarin skills.
If you are basically fluent and can easily involve in conversation more or less on any topic (what I mean is when Chinese who speak decent English prefer to use Chinese when talking to you) so the difference is not big.
In the lower tier cities you get much more attention - for many people you can be the first foreigner they saw.
They are genuinely interested in you but it means staring and sometimes greeting on the street. The bold ones then try to involve in small talks when shopping or eating/drinking. If you can communicate with them it can be quite interesting experience.
In cities like Shanghai and Beijing it more depends in what quarter you are. Generally in the bar neighborhood foreigners are hated ...(irrespective if the people will or will not let you know that).
In the 'embassies' area the foreigners are seen as cashcow (but again speaking good Mandarin usually helps a lot) and in the 'normal' areas without that many foreigners it's a bit similar to second tier cities.
If you cannot speak good Mandarin (or cannot speak at all) then lower tier cities may be hell for you.
Few foreigners, almost nobody speaks good English, even Western restaurants serve basically Chinese food, frequently under Western name etc.
You have hard time to navigate yourself through the city, problem to get a taxi as at certain time you cannot get a car on the street and have to use the mobile app but without being able to talk to driver no way, very limited social life etc.
But it does not mean that some people do not like it.
First tier cities then offer to such people the Western environment (usually at its costs but still), more foreigners, social life.
For me personally I enjoy the most the life in the second tier cities. I find it a great compromise between 'real China' and still having some comfort when feeling like that (service level, places to go to relax etc.).
I'm in a 4th tier and it's ok. Fortunately it's far less polluted than anywhere else I've been, save for the 5th's at the foot of the Tianshans.
Not much English and very few foreigners. No western food at all but Uyghir and Kazakh food isn't bad.
The people seem ok. Certainly the friends of my wife are very good company. Well mannered and polite. But no English.
I can burden it.
so a foriegner was mugged in Shanghai one night there. wow, interesting. i didnt think the chinese would be so bold. maybe he was a wimpy looking man, and looked like easy pickings.
Spiderboenz:
Yeah, just like its a woman's fault if she gets raped, because she dressed too sexy, right?
victim blaming, thought it was limited to over-privileged frat boys...
Mateusz:
I don't really see this as victim blaming (which is way too overused a term).
Saying someone did something wrong (or seen as wrong), and thus deserved what he/she got is victim blaming.
Saying someone was chosen to be the victim due to some factor is not victim blaming. For example, saying that thieves target people who look like tourists doesn't mean that the victims of theft are to blame. The thieves are still fully guilty.
Also, saying there is something that a person did to increase their likelihood of being the victim isn't victim blaming. Signs telling you to watch your valuables aren't victim blaming. If you leave your computer unattended on a table and it is stolen, the thieves are still guilty. However, it still remains that leaving valuables unattended increases the chance they'll be stolen.
silverbutton1:
@spider. I live in the real world, thus I think realistically about how the world works. Granted, I am making an assumption that the victim was in all probability "easy pickings", that in no way correlates to blaming him for the crime that was committed. Dont play word games and twist/spin the logic around. Crime happens, it a reality. Deal with it, or continue to stick your head in the sand.
i have a good chart on the tier cities on my computer, but im not able to upload it. darn
i lived in low tier for years, never spent enough time in big cities.
rock star, zoo attraction, anything but normalcy. being objectified and not valued for ability takes some getting used to. there was a huge electronic billboard (~10m?) outside my local shopping mall, it had photo adverts and the occasional background music. then every 6 minutes, i'd see myself: "would you like your child to learn real English from a native speaker? come visit bla bla."
this attention does not sit well with an introvert, believe me.
expatlife26:
ugh, that's funny about the advertisement but i'm sure it was really aggravating.
I wrote a post a year ago about how curiousity by itself can be rude. And I still agree with that. I always hated how any complaint about the imposition of locals would be handwaved as "they're just curious!"
People's time belongs to themselves alone, nothing is owed to random strangers.
coineineagh:
what embarrassed me most about that advert, was how my face and voice blasted around the shopping area is a form of harassment and noise pollution, bothering regular people in their daily shopping.
Gist of it is that in a big, developed city people will ignore you more but be more capable of seeing you as a person.
Small cities people will be more openly friendly but really struggle to interact with you on a real level.
What I mean by that is in a big city most of the locals have at least enough exposure to international people that they don't just throw the social playbook out the window.
Smaller cities you'll get more of the smiling but pushy people who want to be in photos with you, ask about your salary/family life, and then get kinda offended when you don't give them what they want from you. It's as though because you are different they don't make the leap that at least the social rules about not bothering each other don't apply.
I'm not religious but I always looked to the golden rule for a good sense of morality. If somebody wouldn't like being singled out and imposed upon than they are rude for doing it to another, even if they are smiling and friendly about it.
I live in a third tier City, I am treated more as a rock star and I love it.
I moved from Beijing to a smaller city in Jiangsu Province and love it . The people are very friendly - even getting up and giving me their seat on the bus, very little cheating and honest taxi drivers. The only downside is there's less foreign food. We do a lot of cooking so it's not that big a deal. Having nice people around and feeling much more relaxed than living in Beijing . Even registering was so much easier. The powers that be are quite friendly.
