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Sign up with Google Sign up with FacebookQ: I'm going to the court.. Employer to hand out Work Permit Cancellation Confirmation
In the arbitration I saw that my former employer is holding the confirmation of my work permit cancelation.
Where can I find legal reference on whether the employer has to provide it to me (which law should I google)?
7 years 17 weeks ago in Visa & Legalities - China
Your post is a bit confusing.
If you were going to court then surely your lawyer would be able to find out the correct part of the law?
If it is arbitration then isn't this a labour bureau arbitration panel? In which case the person helping you at the labour bureau should know the correct part of the law.
Who is arranging the arbitration for you?
Unfortunately on this site were mainly foreigners and unless fluent in Chinese would find it difficult to find the exact law for you.
You might find this article useful: http://lawandborder.com/guide-to-z-visas-and-work-authorization-in-china...
Read down to section F7. Then the references that link down here:
- Beijing Municipal HRSS Bureau, Matters Relating to the Alteration of Position and Employer for Foreigners,
http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/feature_2/WorkingInBeijing/ChangeOfEmploymentPermitInformation/t1126513.htm
; Shanghai Municipal HRSS Bureau, Instructions for Applying for Foreigner’s Switching Employer,
http://www.12333sh.gov.cn/200912333/2009english/resources/instructions/ep/200911/t20091109_1102213.shtml
; Guangzhou Labor Employment Service Administration Center, Guide to Affairs Relating to Employment Permit,
http://gzjy.gzlm.net/BanShi/Foreigner/formalities%20concerned3.htm
.
↑ - 劳动合同法 [Labor Contract Law], art. 50, adopted by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress on June 29, 2007, effective Jan. 1, 2008.
joerg81:
thanks for the very informative links!
the thing is i am actually looking for some official source showing that i am entitled to the cancelation document. i found that i need to get a release letter in the labour law (article 50).. but the situation for foreigners may be special.
the employer tried to blackmail me into signing some disadvantageous documents to obtain the work permit cancelation certificate. now i would like to show in the court that it belongs to me.
somebody told me that also the valid work permit should have been in my possession before... actually i never even had the chance to have a look at it.
the employer refused to let me have it
Your post is a bit confusing.
If you were going to court then surely your lawyer would be able to find out the correct part of the law?
If it is arbitration then isn't this a labour bureau arbitration panel? In which case the person helping you at the labour bureau should know the correct part of the law.
Who is arranging the arbitration for you?
Unfortunately on this site were mainly foreigners and unless fluent in Chinese would find it difficult to find the exact law for you.
You might find this article useful: http://lawandborder.com/guide-to-z-visas-and-work-authorization-in-china...
Read down to section F7. Then the references that link down here:
- Beijing Municipal HRSS Bureau, Matters Relating to the Alteration of Position and Employer for Foreigners,
http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/feature_2/WorkingInBeijing/ChangeOfEmploymentPermitInformation/t1126513.htm
; Shanghai Municipal HRSS Bureau, Instructions for Applying for Foreigner’s Switching Employer,
http://www.12333sh.gov.cn/200912333/2009english/resources/instructions/ep/200911/t20091109_1102213.shtml
; Guangzhou Labor Employment Service Administration Center, Guide to Affairs Relating to Employment Permit,
http://gzjy.gzlm.net/BanShi/Foreigner/formalities%20concerned3.htm
.
↑ - 劳动合同法 [Labor Contract Law], art. 50, adopted by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress on June 29, 2007, effective Jan. 1, 2008.
joerg81:
thanks for the very informative links!
the thing is i am actually looking for some official source showing that i am entitled to the cancelation document. i found that i need to get a release letter in the labour law (article 50).. but the situation for foreigners may be special.
the employer tried to blackmail me into signing some disadvantageous documents to obtain the work permit cancelation certificate. now i would like to show in the court that it belongs to me.
somebody told me that also the valid work permit should have been in my possession before... actually i never even had the chance to have a look at it.
the employer refused to let me have it
No need to go to the court, just let your ex-employer know that you will pay a visit to the local tax office.
ironman510:
This is the best level headed choice. Talk turkey with your boss and make a deal.
joerg81:
not really here. the whole city is afraid of the biggest company in town.
Dial SAFEA and ask them for help with it.
I am also not sure, what means 'holding work permit cancelation'.
I've never heard, Working permit must be cancelled.
If you didn't commit grave Contract violation, just find new employer and they will get new WP.
However, enter 'SAFEA' in search above for address and contact numbers of Foreign Expert Bureau in your province and ask them for help and advice. Good luck!
joerg81:
safea is not responsible for me. it's the labour bureau. and they get bribed by the company...
icnif77:
OK! It isn't clear out of your Q what is all about. I don't have an experience with Labor Bureau.
My guess is that you've fucked something up because you can't write a question for nuts.
So far we know...
You had a job in China. Now you don't. You're in arbitration.
joerg81:
sorry, i am not a native english speaker. read my question a few times and cannot really find what's wrong with it...
you extracted some correct information, but it's more or less irrelevant to my question. that's why i actually should have written even less in the first place.
let me try to rephrase my question more precisely:
0 - Was I entitled to have the work permit in my possession?
1 - I know it was cancelled. Am I entitled to receive the document about the cancelation?
2 - Where should I look for official information (which law or regulation) about 0 and 1?
Interesting that you say the labour bureau are bribed by the company.
Your dispute must involve big bucks if the company are bribing officials.
As hotwater says above, I reckon you should get a lawyer who knows the law. And make sure the lawyer knows the company is bribing officials.
Good luck.
ironman510:
My landlord screwed us in 2010 over the deposit, so we went to check many lawyers and each one asked for the prices you see below.
Hotwater:
Where did the OP mention bribes? I can't remember that from when I first replied.
joerg81:
"bribing" ..my overly simplified way to mention they have guanxi.. sorry i was too lazy to write more in detail. i have no proof they are "bribed". anyway many people warned me about messing with this company and that there is a reason they are in this city.. and now that is what i got myself into so far.
the labour bureau "kicked the ball" for weeks and months, didn't follow the labour arbitration law in several respects (several clearly defined time limits were exceeded and i'm sure they didn't give the administrative punishments to the company that are also clearly defined in the laws)...
arbitration was very hard to get started, nobody was responsible..
on the other hand the labour bureau promptly forwarded their surveillance camera videos to the employer showing me in the labour bureau with the helping friend.. he later was contacted and threatened directly by HR.
i have heard that there is an anti-corruption department. but couldn't get a hold of them. too hard as a foreigner.
Ah, man listen, you do know that a lawyer cost between 20,000 to 50,000 for almost any case in China? Even the sit down with the lawyer cost Y3000 to Y5000. I really hate to break it to you but there is nothing you can do.. Just go to the PSB and tell them everything, one phone can help alot from them to your company will help.
yes. as ironman 510 wrote.. i went to a lawyer and basically i explained to her the labour law. i am not kidding. i needed to point out the right paragraphs to her and sometimes i am sure she was plain wrong and contradicting the law.
in the end she wanted to charge me 500rmb basically just to listen to my story and tell me that she wants 20,000 EACH for appearing at the labour arbitration and court. i told her she can have 60,000 but based on results. as it was impossible to work out anything success-related with her. i left it at that.
i managed the arbitration with a chinese friend and intend to do the same with the following civil case. they actually brought a translator. anyway i know the big boss has a lot of influence here on officials. i don't know if it is "bribe" exaclty. but the result uses even the same wording that was offered by my employer sometime earlier. it is just copy and paste. anyway, i am confident that my friend and myself did a better job than the incapable lawyer would have managed to do. so far the arbitration result offers a few 1000s rmb more than what my employer already offered beforehand.
I fould this here:
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2011/12/how_to_change_your_china_employer_an...
and i know my employer has cancelled the employment permit. they showed the document in the arbitration. but it was not given to me.
do i have the right to receive it?
i found the labour arbitration law, social insurance law, contract law, labour arbitration law... in englisch on the internet. and found that my employer is braking a lot of them. it even shows the punishments that authorities should give to my employer. i am sure they didn't receive any of them from the labour bureau.
Robk:
In China, the law most likely sides against foreigners. However, I have heard of some coming out of the courtrooms successfully.
However, I would heed the advice of others. Talk to your employer and try to work something out. More than likely, they are business minded... talk about going to the PSB or the tax office or speak to their clients would probably scare them greatly. Chinese hate raising a fuss with the government because most of them conduct their business practices illegally. So that's all you have to do... threaten to or start to raise a fuss.
joerg81:
i'm talking the biggest private car maker in china..
they own the place here. and they are very afraid since they screw thousands of people in this company even worse than their foreigners. if they lose, it might be very costly to them. not so much because of myself but because they must fear many more people will follow.
ironman510:
I hate Chinese lawyers for reasons like this. I hate it for all of us. I hate it for my friend who just wanted joint custody of his kid after he divorced his wife. The lawyer wanted to charge him 50,000. RMB. Sick twisted laws here, Hard to roll with sometimes.
The best thing you can do is talk turkey with the boss and offer him money for your release letter. If no release letter it'll be very hard to go to a new company. I'm only thinking about your future, work here is great and stable all year round, don't give it up..
joerg81:
the chinese laws i studied are actually very good. in case of the labour law maybe even too friendly with employees..
the problem is corruption and enforcement in my opinion.
Go check my post "Boss won't give FEC cancellation".
I resolved the problem, got my money back, and put that boss's ego in check with a quick call to SAFEA and an email of proof.
We met in their office and hashed out the details after she tried delaying and giving me b.s.
Never go to arbitration, it's a racist system of Chinese vs. foreigners.
Only SAFEA can help, and if they are being bribed, too then you wake them up with a reminder they'll be reported for corruption and you'll make sure news of it is leaked all over international news.
Remember, face is most important and they will do anything to save it.
Finally, compile a list of their customers and give them every bit of info you have about the company.
From shoddy workmanship to problems with the boss and employees to the actual prices of the imported products (Chinese people love bargaining and finding anyway to pay less, this will give your boss a nightmare).
On a side note, make that boss's life miserable. Make it clear to him/her that you have a copy of their company stamp and will make sure news of her blackmail and corruption will be on every website for recruiting foreigners, will be on every news source (they don't know better), and every blog.
Hint that every week complaints will be lodged against every possible policy break she/he has made and you have a large list, and he'll/she'll just keep getting fined by local authorities.
Turn it into an attrition war and make her/his life a living hell.
joerg81:
according to my contract arbitration has to come first before going to the court. safea is not responsible in my case. couldn't get a hold of them since they are in another city anyway.
i want to move on asap. of course i put my work of warning to other foreigners about my experience on glassdoor and such but further warfare makes no sense. in this company nobody cares about the success of it. everybody is busy "protecting themselves from punishment and keeping their faces" as a chinese explained. the hr manager simply doesn't give a sh... about whether sales figures are good or bad...
Zethe:
The contract saying arbitration comes first is absolute bullshit. you don't have to follow that at all, they just introduced it so they can con you into going into a racist court system against them.
I was in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia when I made the call to the capital city and still managed even when none of them spoke English.
I advise you should always go to SAFEA first, and you made a big mistake by not doing it this time.
icnif77:
Agree with Zethe: 'SAFEA is mediator in dispute with employer and foreign employee!'
Call to SAFEA is a must, even if you are just looking for the info about proper process of visa/RP cancelation.
Zethe:
Besides, the 'warfare' i mentioned wasn't about their profits. It was about their face.
Ruin it. It's the only way to get the message through.
fyi:
arbitration was free. and i launched the litigation now. if the court decides i have to bear the fee it will be a mere 10rmb.
after a friendly discussion with the clerks at the court they were actually helpful correcting our mistakes in the application. ...among chinese "customers" on a adjacent counters yelling back and forth to their clerks...
Hotwater:
You asked some questions above which I'll answer here to the best of my knowledge.
let me try to rephrase my question more precisely:
0 - Was I entitled to have the work permit in my possession?
YES. It actually states inside the cover that you're supposed to keep it on you at all times though I only know one guy who does this.
1 - I know it was cancelled. Am I entitled to receive the document about the cancelation?
YES! You must be given the cancellation receipt to get a new work permit at another company.
2 - Where should I look for official information (which law or regulation) about 0 and 1?
Sorry, only links I could find were in my first reply.
joerg81:
are you sure 0 and 1 apply for the work permit as well (not FEC)? i'm not here as a teacher. tried to google some picture that shows this demand, but no results. :(
What was your job? Because what you're saying sounds fishy. Bribed officials wouldn't risk international exposure
The hearing will be middle of February. The city's court transferred the case to a local court that is a mere 200m away from the company... my friends are to afraid to translate for me in the court... but helped me prepare the documents.
Any idea where to find a really professional translator in the city of Baoding? Spoke to English speaking law students but I am afraid they are not up to do it. :(
Stiggs:
Could your embassy tell you how to contact a proper translator?
They won't be good for much else probably but they might be able to do that.
joerg81:
thanks. will give them a try tomorrow. but no high hopes that they know somebody except in beijing and maybe shanghai.
no success with the embassy. they only have a list of lawyers, no info on interpreters :(
philbravery:
try your counties Business commerce the embassy will have their number. Business commerce have everything because they are serious about doing business and don't fuck around
Are you sure you want to do all that? seems to me it will take more time and other resources than it's worth. This is teaching ESL in China. You should have been aware that you will be ripped off at some point!
it's not about ESL in my case. i am an engineer. and anyways i would not accept getting ripped off, because they can get away with it in most cases they will continue their behaviour
it's the wrong attitude in my books.
ironman510:
Remember in China they write their own book, you can either follow or walk away or make a deal that benefits them 10% more, I've seen people with your attitude walk and lost more thny they thought. Walk their way or pay up.
Englteachted:
Create a facebook account using their company name, post all your documents and proof and warn others.
it's very hard to make the judge even listen to what i had to say..
so a friend also thought publicity would be working better.. Laughing out loud
http://club.m.autohome.com.cn/bbs/thread-c-3298-60828276-1.html
..all the posts together got about 30,000 clicks so far.. Smile
Englteachted:
How is this going to deter any foreigner from taking a job with them?
joerg81:
i think they care about their face in front of customers more than about foreigners.. but of cause my opinion is also on glassdoor, linkedin etc..