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Q: Is it true that most Chinese want to leave China?
I've seen this a number of times now, a nationalistic Chinese who ironically either copies their entire lifestyle off, say, a western country like USA, or who is spending thousands of dollars trying to get admission to a university in the west with intention of staying there, or even a Chinese hooker I know who goes down on her knees for ugly foreigners with the obvious intention of trying to get a free ride abroad.
Not to diss Chinese, but do you think most are actually like this, or is this just a rather hypocritical minority (and ironically ones usually with connections inside the crooked chinese party)?
I wouldn't say so. Life isn't that bad for the average Chinese person that I know. The life style/ culture is normal for them. I wouldn't say that Chinese copy western living either, they live like most people do in this century, but I have to admit I was expecting rickshaws before I first came over. People in many other countries are way poorer, ex Philippines. I've always found China to be beautiful, annoying sometimes. Even the poor rural areas don't look as bad as city slums in Philippines. My ex-GF was poor in my eyes, but happy. She doesn't know what it is like to have everything you want or want things that you don't know about, 4 burner stove with oven, clothes dryer, 50'' TV (that she'd like), proper heating.
I can see if the life style wasn't comfortable. I never had a Chinese woman call me rich, but Filipinos did, because I have everything that I want. Perspective.
sam239:
I see, so maybe it is just the elites who are (hypocritically) like this. Actually in my travels around the country I've liked the solid majority of people met.
Not sure that they all want to leave. I don't think that's right. But I do know that all that can, do.
I think there are two groups who want to leave:
1. The women who want a knight in shining armour riding a golden Airbus A380.
2. The people with money who want to get out before questions are asked about how they got the money.
I have never come across anyone who wanted to leave because of political reasons. They either want to leave because they want money or want to keep the money they have.
I think that the Chinese are just like everyone else in that they want the best life they can get. After years of deprivation, both in the material sense and in the social sense, they are grabbing at whatever looks good to them. Foreign westernised countries have that, good housing , good health, good food and water, good social security programs and good jobs. That is how they see the west, and who can blame them for wanting a slice if they can get it. However we all know that what you see on tv and in the movies isn't quite like real life, is it. We all hear how rich foreigners are, and when compared to the average Joe here we are. What they don't see is the high cost of living and the high taxation levels in our countries. They are always told how good China is now, how fast it is growing but they still want foreign. Foreign goods in the shops are seen as better quality and foreign life in foreign countries must therefor be better. A lot of us are here, and other Asian countries, because we are fed up with the shit that goes on in our countries. We perceive this to be better and so we come, while here we learn it isn't exactly paradise. Some of us adapt and stay, some don't and leave. It is relatively easy as we bring with us comparatively high spending power. Most Chinese do not understand how expensive it is to maintain even a modest standard of living back home and so they use their contacts. That could be either friends and relatives already there to help with housing and work, or some will just use a foreign husband to get what they want. Again no different to some foreigners I know here who have married just to get a residents permit.
Most Chinese just want a better life, the same as we do. Their perception of that can be be different to ours. There are a lot of things and behaviors I am critical of here but I don't blame anyone for trying to get a better deal.
October1st:
"we are fed up with the shit that goes on in our countries", What are they except expensive living and taxes?? What are most regular societal issues in your countries? You foreign guys Generally look much better off than local guyes
Most Chinese don't want to leave as opposed to the perception that they do. Like Ted, Tom et al said, they just want a better life. However, all of them want better lives fast, like yesterday. So we see them as conniving brats who rush to be first in line for anything, even for a sundae at Mackers. There are many who can afford to leave. They spend hundred of thousands sending their kids to the US and UK universities. The kids in the university I teach in have BMWs, Mercs, Maseratis etc picking them up at the gates, mostly the mothers send and fetch. These people are dripping cash but they don't talk about migrating, just going overseas for holidays. Here, RMB10 million means they are somebody in their own town but when the go to the US or EU, it's less than US2 million. Unless they have something to run away from I don't think the majority would leave.
sam239:
If I had 2 million USD I could live off the interest for the rest of my life. But I'm not willing to do the dirty deeds necessary to get such $$$.
louischuahm:
Royce@ How long will 2 million last you? If you had 2 million, you'd have a 2 million lifestyle. I'd rather have 10 million and be someone than to have 2 million and be a nobody. No, most of them won't leave.
louischuahm:
Sam@ 2 million isn't a lot these days. It'll be gone in no time. But 10 million, that's a different story.
expatlife26:
Sam is right if you think consevatively. Get yourself a portfolio of dividend stocks targeting a 3-4% yield thats 60k bucks a year taxed at a very low rate. You wouldnt be living in luxury or anything but youre now financially independent definitely something to be said for that!
Not bound to a job you can live ANYWHERE. Get yourself awesome place in vermont or something.
You wouldnt be spending the 2 mill you be spending your dividend payout. Though if youre smart you get a job anyway and reinvest your dividends through a drip.
louischuahm:
Expat@ I agree that you could live in financial independence. With 60k annually most people will get by, plus with a job I suppose life gets better. However, people here can live a life of luxury here with 10 million. And using the same method you proposed, they'd be having a ball of a time, don't you think? I still think most of them (those who can afford it) will not leave. If they did, they would have done so.
Recently, Canada changed immigration rules and thousands of Chinese couldn't get permanent residence anymore. These people are filthy rich, I mean they have hundreds of millions. Obviously, we can surmise that with their ill gotten gains they have to run somewhere.
expatlife26:
Louis...i guess it would depend on the person. Hell yeah 60k in some ways goes further, like in terms of your relative status, but in other ways youd still be living objectively better in the west. Youd be somebody special here...where in the west youd have a little above par life but nobody would be super impressed by you. But still...you could have a big house with land, solid car good school for your kid. Just a question of whether you want to be a big fish in a small pond or not. My feeling is outside of domestic help luxuries are cheaper in the west.
They gotta first understand (or learn i you prefer) that there's a whole world out there....
royceH:
They could memorize that thing. And then it'd be as useful as the rest of the stuff they memorize. So when asked "How are you?" they'd still answer "I'm 28 years old."
Yes, some of you are confusing planning with want. Yes only the wealthy and visa seekers are planning to leave. But most normal people want to leave. Simple, fair wages, fair treatment, court system, no forced abortions etc.
Although I think what some write, that most don't really want to leave, but they seek a better life is true, in my wifes circle of friends it is quite different. She has a lot of high school friends who've studied abroad, and my wife is the only one to return. Of the friends she has from high school who did not study abroad, they all dream, at some level, about experiencing waigourenistan.
In somewhat related news. Construction on a new community has just started in our hood. As always, the fence around the construction site has catchy slogans. In this case "Quality Life" and "It is close to HK & Macau".... if living close to a place that is different is a qualifier for "quality life" then I think at least the marketing guy for the construction company dreams of greener pastures.
Leave China ? but it's so lovely here.
(translated) umm,, even those who grow up in a shit-house and have never experienced anything different still know it is a shit-house. How can animals determine that? I don't know, but we can.
Not "most of Chinese", but if any Chinese hear of this, they will quite understand. Bad food quality, pollution, roaring living prices, indifferent officials (anti-corruption is a hard long way to go) and lagged policies, impatience and disrespect of people....This is most typical urban life in China. Then look at what we Chinese know about western countries, and that is mind-boggling (as you often called bad things that you observed here in China), that many western countries are clean, much safer, and most importantly, everybody seems get a Decent life there.
I have always wanted to know more about Societal problems in western world. Do you have anything to introduce or say about it? I always wanted to know what I would shit around if one day i would start living in a western country (start dreaming hahah..
DrMonkey:
I can't speak for all Western countries, as they have very, very large differences from one to the other. Scandinavians countries, Eastern Europe, North-West Europe, South-West Europe have very different societies, lifestyle, etc.
In my home country, France, if you never left China, you might moan about that, based on my Chinese friends living in France for a decade:
* Outside of Paris, you might find it *really* quiet
* Everything is small, the streets, the buildings...
* Ever shop and public service is closed on Sunday, and many people think it's just normal and even good
* Many people will assume that the rest of the world works the same as in France, and they really can't wrap their head around that.
* Way too much dog poop on the walkway
* Public toilets are too often dirty by other Western countries standard (by Chinese standard, it's quite good)
* No Sichuan food, just some weird derivations of Guanzhou food with some Dongbei stuffs thrown in
* Lots of things are more expensive than you are used to
You might be seriously worried about that
* People do a lot of strikes and protests. It's mostly peaceful, you even have police forces to ensure it goes smooth, but if you never saw that before you might freak out a bit (from my own experience with Chinese friends new in France)
* Some strikes can degenerate into plain old riot, like, once or two times a year
* You want to avoid some places, because they are ghettos of desperate, poor, uneducated and aggressive people (ie. some suburbs of the largest cities)
* If you really have no ambition at all, you can live on public help, and it's paid with people's taxes. Yep, your taxes. And you are taxed for a lot of thing, so it's almost 50% of your income that goes into taxes. (but close to best healthcare in the world, free school and kindergarten and lots of other perks)
* Actual political power is now in the hand of some kind of large club, which makes abuses easier than it used to be
Stiggs:
These are the first things that jump to mind with me, there are a lot more I'm sure..
*Everyday living, food,rent etc can be more expensive than in China.
*Taxes ! You pay a LOT more, not just on your income but sales taxes too.
*Depending on where you lived, you might be expected to tip waiters etc.
*Maybe more chance of experiencing casual violence, depending where you were.
*Political correctness, often gone to extremes.
*Depending where you live, you might get sued for something ridiculous.
October1st:
Thank you for your inputs..You guys concern about things while generally Chinese men tend to put off things and go shortcuts and that is disgusting for me...but I did go to America once for ten days and i swore in the Universal Studio that "GOD here, please send me back to China and I want never come here again!"
Stiggs:
I don't blame you, anytime you go somewhere with 9999990000000000000000 other tourists it's a horrible experience, at least in my opinion.
DrMonkey:
@October1st Next time, try European countryside. French Brittany, Irish Connemara, Scottish Highlands, Alps, etc. There are lot of well-documented trails, with lots of historical sights if you are into that :) That would be a peaceful experience with no crowds in your way. Your English fluency sounds far enough to self-plan such a trip. Imagine someone stuck in Beijing in the middle of the summer for only 10 days !
October1st:
@Stiggs: Yes. I feel vaporized in any packed place in China, but I also felt deserted when in America.
@DrMonkey: Your advice to these places is much appreciated but I'm afraid that is too expensive for me and local people may also treat us as locusts :(((((
sam239:
About the travelling...you can do Europe or the US for surprisingly little. In Europe use rails and book hostels or dorm stays. The big group tours most Ch. go on are expensive and I bet miss the best part, meeting locals. If you travel independently it's cheaper, more fun, and you will make good friends. Most people have a fairly positive impression of Ch. where I come from, they are seen as polite. Just dont pull out any old maps proving you own the place and you will be fine. And about societal ills. I know in US there are huge numbers of rural white folks that got f~~~~d over the past few decades, they are overlooked by gov't programs that focus on urban black folk but most poverty in the US is rural white people. This is evident in many parts of the US if you drive through the countryside,
October1st:
@Sam239: Thank you for that. When you say " Just dont pull out any old maps proving you own the place and you will be fine." you mean I'd better ask someone for help, right?
leave for a short period is acceptable for me,for example : vacation,study,work.
but i think the best place for living is always our own country .
No doubt in my mind that if a poll was taken ... well over half of the 1.3 billion would accept an invitation to another country... there are quite a few that would be acceptable to them... GRASS IS GREENER on the other side!!!.... NO DOUBT.... .. include the family in the invitation and the acceptance rate would sky-rocket, and they might even stay. Individually, they'd be clamoring to get home in a month or 2.
Many of them want to leave but only a few can do so legally.
Since it is only the rich and educated that can leave, we can figure out that what is left is a nation of looses.
since 1990 9,3 million have given up their passports, and have left with 46 billion USD (this is an official amount, the truth is likely much higher)
sam239:
That factors to 5000 USD ppx, obviously the actual number is higher.
I want to leave China.Europe has white lovely men
If they all move to China,I will not want to leave China anymore.
More white men,more choice to meet a good one among them.lol
OT:
Want to get rid of U.S. citizenship? Fee just quadrupled – to $2,350
August 28, 2014 4:25 pm By Patrick Cain Global News
http://globalnews.ca/news/1532175/want-to-get-rid-of-u-s-citizenship-fee-just-quadrupled-to-2350/
Renouncing your U.S. citizenship will set you back a cool $2,350(US) starting Sept. 6, when the fee will more than quadruple – up from $450.
The State Department, which announced the change this week, claims the new fee is the real cost of processing an application to lose citizenship.
“Demand for the service has increased dramatically, consuming far more consular officer time and resources,” Under Secretary of State Patrick Kennedy wrote. “Documenting a U.S. citizen’s renunciation of citizenship is extremely costly, requiring American consular officers overseas to spend substantial amounts of time to accept, process, and adjudicate cases.
“The Department believes there is no public benefit or other reason for setting this fee below cost.”
That’s a policy change from 2010, when the State Department explained it had decided to set the $450 fee lower than the cost of handling a renunciation “in order to lessen the impact on those who need this service and not discourage the utilization of the service, a development the Department feels would be detrimental to national interests.”
icnif77:
Reply to above:
| Sunday, 08/31/14 10:33:13 AM | |
| Re: Pro-Life post# 72858 | ||
| Post # of 72868 | ||
Currently there are more advantages to being an illegal alien in this country that a citizen.
icnif77:
Last year, I heard over 3100 folks gave the US what is commonly used in the streets... the middle finger, the bird, the big "up yours"!!!
