That's how public forums are in foreign countries: we like public debate, and we like it to be lively and represent a wide range of views, and we have for THREE THOUSAND YEAR HISTORYYYYY.

A forum, or an agora, in ancient times, was a place in the middle of the city where foreigners basically just got together and yelled at each other and gossiped. And then people like Plato wrote books about it. Or people like every Roman wrote books to be read in the fora throughout the Empire so the people could debate. We're just carrying on a proud tradition.

I have to go an do things the Chinese way at work and in public every day, and I have to listen to the Chinese belittle my culture, belittle my country, and belittle my traditions every day. And I just smile and take it. So it's nice to have a place where I can act like an Anglophone on a forum meant for Anglophone expats.

Will you name names? (Seinfeld reference)

I would rather have a place like this to vent instead of doing it in public where things would get ugly.

No. It's called an opinion, and we'll express it if we want to. Now, go over to the CNN website and tell all the little Wu Mao to stop saying mean things about the west. 

Well, even I say rude things once in a while, and if you call me on it, I'll apologize. But I like how people here can say how they really feel. My Chinese friend was telling me I was complaining too much when I visited her. You know why? Because the internet wasn't good enough to get on here for two weeks. I'd rather be rude on here than be rude to the Chinese people I interact with every day.

Everything? Everything?! See, a person grips about one or two thousand things, and all of a sudden, it's the whole country! The whole culture! As if everything was great about any country!

Let's face it. A person goes to a differnt place, and people act strange. Places are strange. The language is strange. Everything is strange. No. I don't like some things. No. I ain't leaving. Not until I'm done with what I came to do. Then, it will be "good bye" without a kiss. In the meantime, I'll put up with the bad and have fun with the good.

And yeah, last week didn't look so rosey, so I'm gonna be wound up tight for a little bit. And while we are on the subject of behavior, at least I don't spit all over the sidewalk (or in an elevator or hallway or resturant floor), and if I did, at least I would look to make sure someone wasn't right beside me when I did. What's up with that? Is that native culture or just bad behavior?

And how about stopping at red lights? And putting on turn signals? Or exiting off an expressway from the far left-hand lane, cutting across four lanes of traffic within 10 feet of the exit! Or staying in those lines that are painted on the road? Or common curtousy towards other drivers? Are insane people behind the wheel native culture, or bad behavior?

Oh! Now, let's talking about pissing! What's up with grown men, not to mention every baby up until puberty, taking a wiz in public?! If anyone even had the decency to go behind a bush, I'd be surprised any of the vegetation would even have a chance to grow around here! What dynasty ruler first pulled out their royal pecker and watered the verge, saying, "Scribe, write this action down, and henceforth, this shall be a common part of our culture!"

I could go on and on, but that would be rude. Sheesh. I think it's time for some baiju...

@ Icerock:
This is your homework: You will go to CNN, Fox news, the blaze, or whatever western news site you want and you will read the comments section. If Cnn, then read the comments on US news, if BBC then the comments on news in the UK, etc. You will note how we express ourselves there and we are quite blunt in the things we hate about our own country. If one were to say even on this site that "I love "Fox News" (hypothetical people, hypothetical!!!) you will see the rather blunt comments that western person would get from other western people. This site, which is mainly for EXPATS in China, we will behave the same. If it bothers you, then reply BUT get ready to be questioned by the rest.
Now, my girlfriend has translated some of the comments made by Chinese posters on Chinese websites, and quite frankly, they say some things here about China that are even MORE nasty than what most post here. This leads me to conclude that it is okay for Chinese  people to complain about China, it is okay for them to Complain about the West (even to our faces) but if we do not like 100% everything here in China 100% of the time we are then told to go home.

Hey little fella,

You'd better get thicker skin if you can't handle this site. My comments and posts are based on personal experiences over a 6 year period. You may think some of the things I said lately are rude but to me, the statements and opinions I have made are simply my observations. I doubt that you or anyone else is gonna tell any of us what we can say or how we should think.
Some posts get deleted from time to time and I guess that's all you get. My advice to you is to embrace the fact that this is one of the few sites where you will get a myriad of thoughts from real people regarding subjects that are China related.... for the most part. Learn and grow from your experience here. Think of this as your foray into the abyss you now know as a Foreign Country. Can you handle it?

every one so excited here.

'every one so excited here.'  I'll keep that in mind icerock!

We wouldn't piss and moan if things weren't, well, stupid and aggrivating.

Good example:  A friend of mine had his electric bike stolen.  He went to the police with the registration number, fapiao, and everything he could think of.  He even got video footage from his apartment compound.  The police told him that he was stupid and it was his fault that the bike got stolen.  They refused to do anything and told him "buy another bike".

Amazingly, things like this happen to piss foreigners off and also things like this are COMMONPLACE here.

I know that in China, lying, theft, and cheating is part of the "culture" and we try to put up with it on a daily basis.  You need to understand that we come from a completely different culture where lying, theft, and cheating often will land you in prison.  Our only outlet is places like this where we can bitch to other foreigners that understand and can relate to our issues.

icerock: we come from countries where we are allowed to speak freely. if you goes to america and critic the gun laws. some people will agree with you some will disagree with you. idiots will say if you dont like it here than leave. people with a functioning brain will point at those individuals and say they are stupid. because we respect freedom of speech and the right to disagree and have an intelligent discussion. it is foolish and small minded to look at criticism or disagreements as "insulting my culture" i have sat with aussies , brits, canucks and whoever. and we openly discuss what is right about our countries and what is wrong about our countries. i was on a plane with iranian basketball players and part of the discussion was usa's foreign policy many things we agreed on some we disagreed about. i did not clam up and cry " you are insulting my culture you have no right to talk about my country in a negative light" becuase the truth is this we all as human beings are equal! we were all born with a mouth 2 eyes , 2 ears and centrally positioned between them a brain. that means we will observe our surroundings think about it and talk about it. some govts on this planet believes they should regulate what we see, hear and speak. that will not stop us from being human.

did i said china are inviolability? did  i say no one could "insulting my cultural"? 

i only mean some one should be more politely when we talk about unhappy  things in china, but now i  become one of "wu mao party"  who is a  insolence chinese only to know  protect china profit without limit.

as a chinese,  i know there are huge defects in our politics and society :autarchy country , goverment corruption, national monopoly enterprise,  some of chinese cultural even i can't endured it , and our individual behavior should be improved.  i know it and i admit it, i will "embrace the fact of china" as long as it is true.

so, guys,i want say this again, this is not a chinese argue with a foreigner about  china good or bad.  i only hope we should be more politely in this forum. and i have no opinion if you disagree, after all as you guys said:this is free place.

yes i agree with your statement but this" forum" sucks sometimes too,but this is the world of the internet where everyone has a opinion good or bad or they just wanna argue. I am surpised the stupid admin had not deleted the post as not a question as has happens many times to me as technically this is not a forum but a question and answer thing...

Icerock has been one of the coolest people on this forum. He has never claimed to be western, and has always been very fair in his own thoughts, good and bad, about China and the people. So for him to post something like this, a line must have been crossed for him. And just like the rest of us with all the generalizations about China and locals... he has every right to bitch with a generalization.  

So get off his ass already

Is it okay if my IP address is on the outside, but i'm pissing on the virtual inside?

Yeah, sometimes people are pretty harsh here. This is a good place to vent, and be comforted by the evidence that many expats struggle with the same elements of China that I do.

As other posters have pointed out, this is similar to other forums frequented by westerners, where the debate can be pretty brutal.

Realistically, some days living in China is amazing. Some days... well.... I don't want to be rude... but... um...

Personally I found the eChina article from yesterday, about 'how to criticise China', to be mind boggling, and quite relevent to this thread. The author suggests that anyone wanting to criticise any element of China should trash their own country first because they can count on every historical failing or problem of their country being thrown straight back at them. Also, any criticism must be tinged with compliments for China and followed by suggesting that of course things will improve.

On days when you've been woken up at 6:30am by fireworks, had to listen to the sound of a dozen people spitting noisily, had the neighbours charge into your apartment screaming at an ungodly hour, had lunch ruined by the noise of chomping from the next table, learned that the reason you're doing extra classes is because management didn't bother to tell HR they desperately need to advertise jobs, or nearly gotten run over by being shoved in front of a car.... there is a need to vent. Sorry, but there is.

If its impossible to complain honestly to Chinese friends, and you don't want to make all social interaction with other foreigners revolve around bitching about the negative elements of China, then its best to do it here.

It doens't mean we hate China if we sometimes talk sh!t about elements of the country and if we point out the problems we have here. It means that we've spent decades developing critical reflection skills (I must stress the critical!) in individualistic societies and are used to being able to share opinions VERY bluntly.

However, sometimes that runs both ways, with some of the Chinese posters, reading back through the archives, being awfully condescending and outright abusive about other countries.

This has turned into an interesting thread.  As foreigners in a strange land, I'm sure YOU(like me) struggle with different "modes" of existence.  Our adventurous side is what drew us here to China.  It makes us optimistic and expectant of the next day.  But being bombarded with constant strangeness tends to frazzle my nerves.  Sometimes it makes me touchy and sensitive.   Sometimes I feel like there is no floor; no sense of down or up.  It is frightening, saddening, and interesting that people live this way and I get to observe it.   But I also have to live it!  This is not National Geographic, this life physically affects me.  So our mental equilibrium is changing from day to day, each of us to a different degree depending on how much of "home" we have around us.

This forum is a little bit of home.  We are not family by any means, but we can be an oasis on a bad day.
    I hope the original poster understands that our intention is not to insult China.  It is usually more about helping ourselves than hurting Chinese people.  The average Chinese person leads a life that is completely alien to me (I can't speak for the others).  When I first arrived, I couldn't fathom such behaviour by a civilized people.  It is clear China is civilized, please don't misunderstand.  I just couldnt understand, couldn't believe, that 5,000 years had not brought them farther.  Even today, I am still in awe of this.  
So icerock, I hope you can filter your understanding of what we write thru that lense.  We each came here with certain expectations.  I think I am safe in saying that what we have discovered in China is beyond what most of us were expecting.

i think it is a good way that we frankly talk to each other, i am a chinese and i like my motherland as same as you guys like your country. we always talk  china have 5000 years history ,  it is definitelly a incomparable treasure ,but also a heavy burden for chinese. in history, we call us "center kingdom " or "heaven kingdom" becasue our country was surrounded by undeveloped countrys or tribes.this situation alomst continue in two thousand years.that made chinese people very pride and arrogance. but in last two  centurys,as you konw ,china was invaded by western and japan, chinese was called "sick man of east asian". so now could you sense why chinese both proud and inferiority.
more conversation between chinese and foreigner must be good whateever the content are good or bad, that mean as least we have discussion and that could let us know each other better.

so let us chat 
 

Check this blog for the answer.  Oh, sorry, I couldn't resist.  Just wanted to post it before uh, someone else.

Sometimes yes but it's good to have a open forum , I only been in China for 6  months and I am very respectful of China but I do see things that I don't like , twice I saw a woman get beat up by a man in the Market , I was held back from getting involve I am a New Yorker seeing kind of thing makes me want to beat the crap out of someone. I will keep my vaules that I believe like giving my seat to someone older than me , holding the door for woman , saying thank you and giving to the poor (some are scam artist but how can you tell?) and also I have baby on the way so I worry about that. The baby formula worries , but I know that i can handle whatever comes my way. Also I learned from the rude comments too sometimes it's a little much and one sided , also not all Americans are dumb I see American bashing in comments section , every country has dumb people.