I have no idea what would driving have to do with anything but whatever.

As for the question, I just know that south China is environment wise the only livable place remaining here and Guangdong is the wealthiest place in south China, Hong Kong being the nice bonus.

I wouldn't relocate to Beijing or Shanghai no matter the offer.

I generally don't agree with your views Mike, but never put it in writing. So yes, I think you're talking out of your ass! 

But seriously.......Guangdong is a pleasant place to live, especially having transport to escape from the cities when needed. The locals are generally very welcoming and The proximity of GD to HK & Macau makes Southeast Asia breaks very easy (I'm typing this while overlooking a rice terrace in Ubud, Bali!)

Where I don't agree is BBQ/Beers on the street & farmers. I'm married here (no kid!) & enjoy  street food with a beer. I also find GD farmers quite welcoming though still uneducated. They are actually educated but not in our terms of reference. It's the Tuhao new rich I don't like. Loud, brash, no taste and full of their own self importance. 

Mike -  I'm in Xiamen, not Dongguan 

You think Guangdong is completely different from the rest of China? Try living in Xinjiang.

Iv lived in Shanghai and Beijing briefly. I can say Guangdong felt like a different country when I first moved here and thank goodness I did.

The cities around the Pearl River Delta have always impressed me when i visited. Relatively clean and civilised, some people actually read books, nice climate (although the summer must be horrendous). If i ever escape the clutches of Henan, that's where i'm going. 

Why would anyone want to drive in SH?  Owning and storing a car is expensive, traffic is terrible and the subway and taxis convenient.    I've never been to BJ, but it seems this applies doubly so there.  Most SH expats I know live near their job, so don't have much need for a car.  Also, I bet there isn't a lottery to get a license plate in Guangdong.  As for families, people settle where there are others with similar thinking.  It's not surprising that you see expat communities that share the same characteristics.  SH, with its young jet setters and GD (apparently) with it's settled soccer moms.

I'm in Hebei, close to Beijing. Shijiazhuang is the worst city for traffic congestion in all of China. I would buy a car, but the pavements are littered with them, because the housing bubble fu er dais and the defunct over-producing ball bearing factory owners like to one up their friends by buying two or even three cars when the apartment complexes they live in are older and haven't got the storage capacity.

The bloody honking that goes on in my complex is appalling. These people are still very much farmers despite their close proximity to Beijing.

This city is also the one in China with the worst real estate bubble and public infrastructure debt. Loads of zigzagging offramps on their bridges to nowhere, except they're not even that because there's usually a ferris wheel or a roller coaster track at the end. Problem is that they aren't in operation.

Why do I live in Shijiazhuang? Well my girlfriend studies here, but it's actually cheaper to live here than in Beijing given the cost of housing. In this city you can stay in a place that costs between 1100 to 1700 per month and receive a salary similar to the Beijing equivalent. A train trip to Beijing is 40 yuan on the slow train or 100 on the fast one. Outside of the public holidays the fast train is practically deserted and the trip takes less than one hour. Beijing's metro is pretty good. I go in there to buy books and electronics, but it's nothing compared to Hong Kong.

I'd take living in Guangdong over here any day.

It's a helluva lot different than Hunan & Shandong !    course Guangdong is a big place, but I lived in SZ a long time and I liked it ok for a big city. I suppose it's very nice if u are rich and live in Shekou and avail yourself of all the nice things SZ has to offer.

For me, I just liked that I could be in downtown HK by 10am without breaking a sweat. I also like that it's not too darn cold in the winter and even then it passes pretty quickly.

As far as cars go, I suppose they are nice and perhaps near essential for families, but as a single guy I wouldn't want one. Way too much of a headache dealing with all the bs that comes with owning one.  Now as for a nice Triumph, BSA, or Norton, we can definitely talk!  

I have never lived anywhere but Guangdong .... but from what I see and here, I am lucky.

I spent 7 months in Guangzhou and found a better place ....  no doubt in my mind, a comfortable place to live.  ...... on the sea, clean, quiet and COMFORTABLE!!   Zhanjiang.

I have been offered teaching jobs...I have to teaching experience or desire....no problem spending a few hours with the kids, chit chatting in English, but never on a timetable.

my uneducated guess is that Guangdong is a better place to be!!!

It reminds me one of your question, "Am I a dic* over internet?"

I don't know what are you up to these days, I do like your comments being blunt but sometimes you go off the road.

Are you saying that people should say 'Yes' whatever you say or you believe people with no cars are inferior to you? I' afraid you won't take people from Tanzania or Nigeria as human beings if the later is true.

I didn't buy your story on different level earlier and one doesn't need to have a car for an argument.

You aren't less than those peasants who suddenly got wealthy and now look down on vendors.

Beep...

Never lived in Guangdong, I would love to give Zhuhai a go. I think Guangdong is not unique in the aspects you mention.

Suzhou is receiving a steady stream of farmers turned workers/taxi drivers/cook too, those people are also quite rough around the edges. Anhui is the major provider, but small Jiangsu towns too. Suzhou also have *plenty* of farmers who became rich overnight when their land have been used to build factories, research centers and what not, in exchange of money, at least 2 homes for free and whatever else. You can copy-paste the same picture for Nanjing, Wuxi, Nantong, Kunshan, etc. all big Jiangsu cities.

I know expats there who drives in Suzhou, traffic is not that bad by Chinese standards. It feels kinda pointless to me, as buses are plenty, subway is great, bike lanes everywhere, great place to bike... and taxi are dirt cheap.

Whatever I said, I made a thread about this a while ago on here.

Guangdong is different but not as much it used to be, it is different in that Cantonese culture is not Northern Han culture, it is less confrontational, more individualistic and A LOT more focused on money.

The Cantonese might be the biggest pretenders in the entire world, they will be whatever you want as long there is some cash flow for them, they are a lot more subtle than other Chinese who are more straightforward. I do believe that every Guangdongren have an agenda, long or very long term plans, while other Chinese don't.

Most Cantonese are less show off than other Chinese, but there are still some dumbass tuhao here as well, they are much more used to be around money and know that flaunting it around can lead to serious problems with the less fortunate out here.

Southern Chinese are known to be good at business, most Chinatowns in the world are populated with immigrants from Guangdong and Fujian provinces, very few are from other parts of China. Today there is a flow of Northern Han immigrants but traditionally the stereotype of the Chinaman is that of the Cantonese. Also the Cantonese language is very alive in those Chinatowns, very little Mandarin is being spoken there.

Traditional Chinese culture seems to be better preserved here in the South than it is in the North.

I drive (a motorcycle and a car) and I don't live in GuangDong. I got an apartment too (you already know that), almost finished and I am actually pretty happy with the location, residential complex and the quality of our renovations so far.

Been to GuangDong  many times and it does seem more developed but I don't mind being up North too much. People are becoming better with manners and following laws. Still got a long ways to go though.

But I still get to retain some of my foreign VIP status because it is a smaller city up here in the North. I know another foreigner here that has a Ford, a Honda, some other car... I think a Mazda... owns a restaurant, bought an apartment (he got screwed on that though)... and is married with kids. He is in his late 30s.

So there are people investing in a life in other areas that are not Guangdong.

I had my start in Beijing back in ’98 – back when you had to be invited to China and just couldn’t show up and find a job.

Beijing, of course, is the seat of power and the “home” of face. There’s a Chinese saying, “The further away you are from the capital, the safer you are.” This comes into play later.

I’ve lived in Beijing (four plus years), Urumqi (half a year), Huizhou (three months – while I was based in BJ), Shaowu, Fujian (three months), Guangzhou (around nine years) (with a stint in Shanghai for a month), Guilin (16 months), Linyi (10 months), and now Shenzhen (but a really crappy, backwards and horrific district) for less than a year.

Beijing was, by far, my favorite city. I was invisible! No “Helllooooooooooooooos”, no problems with the police/pseudo-police/PSB (it might have helped that I was drinking buddies with a Chief of Police who lived above me at the time). I came and went as I pleased, got everything I wanted and needed, and basically lived a hedonistic lifestyle (not something I regret, but looking back, I should have been more conservative).

Shaowu, Fujian, is my overall favorite city in China. Extremely small, with a looooong history (they have a gate down by the river where the Emperor’s boat would dock). Extremely friendly and genuinely beautiful people. Great food, too.

Guangzhou is the eternal craphole. I’ve never come across (save where I unfortunately reside now) such rude, ignorant and arrogant people in my life! In all my travels, I’ve had exactly one person (taxi driver) try to rip me off. In GZ, it happened all the time! I had everyone and their grandmother constantly showing up to my apartment to check papers that they’ve already checked a thousand times (and I worked for a top-level gov’t school, so it wasn’t like I was shady). Cantonese can be said to be like the British, they’ll sell their friends down the river to impress people that they don’t even like (look up the quote before trying to crucify me!)

Huizhou, back in late ’99 was like a warzone. Half-finished buildings filled with squatters (people, not the toilets!). A one-McDonald’s town at the time. I got to see GZ and SZ at the time and considered those two as possible future choices for living and working.

Urumqi was cool (freezing in the winter) but I never had any problems, run-ins or other “official” interference in my daily business.

Linyi, a small crap-hole as well but with nice people.

Guilin, not what you see on the Internet. But I did have a 192m2 apartment penthouse overlooking a man-made lake and no-one ever bothered me. It’s also where I noticed that a local policeman had a 2012 F-250 that I fell in love with.

Back to GZ, it’s, of course, centered around money and business, so opposite to Beijing. Business is unscrupulous and cut-throat. Arrogance is currency in Guangdong so liars and cheats prosper here like no-where else. I lost my Beijinghua in GZ. I was surrounded by Cantonese (fill your mouth with rice and scream in Mandarin – that’s Cantonese).

Now, I met my current wife in GZ, my best friend in China is also from GZ. I had my best job and best opportunities in Guangdong Province.

Do I think that foreigners in GD are different from others? Not necessarily. It really depends on your age, your background, your current occupation and your outlook on life.

Beijing caters to those who like power and influence, the west – idealism and counter-culture, the south-west, tree-huggers, the south-east money. All generalizations.

As for the car or car-not issue, I was born in Montreal (so, sucks to be you if you weren’t) and Montreal was my home before I came to China (after living in Ontario {vomit!}, Alberta {Let the Eastern Bastards Freeze!} and British Columbia {Duuuuuuude!} I had a car (Grand Am SE) in Montreal but really didn’t need it for everyday use. The busses were frequent (and empty) for short trips and the metro (subway or ‘tube’ for those who can’t speak English) went everywhere else you’d want to go. I mainly used my car for the monthly trips to my cottage in Muskoka, Ontario (700 klicks door-to-door). I could ‘bury the needle’ down the 401 (before photo-radar) at 240km/h and make the trip in under four hours with a stop for gas and a bite to eat.

Why in the hell would I want to drive in China? Nowhere to park, guys looking to fake run-ins, potholes the size of fishing holes, oblivious, inexperienced drivers yakking on their phones, Audis made by VW, zhanzhai Porches, arseholes putting nails on the road before ‘repair’ centers, people who were clumsily riding bicycles just last year trying to pilot ¾ ton SUVs now (where I currently reside, there are “women” barely 24 years old, 1.5m tall, 40Kgs driving “Porche” Cayennes – imagine seeing this thing hurtling towards you and all you can see is a Hello Kitty hair-tie and ten little piggies holding a steering wheel and nothing else!). My wife’s uncle has a car, and the time that we “save” by driving somewhere for dinner is negated by waiting for him to find safe, adequate and cheap parking plus the joy of watching the infamous Chinese 35-point-turn required to back into the space. High speed trains and taxis save time and are more cost-effective (unless you have the ‘my car=me persona).

So, Mike, there is a north/south split with foreigners (just like the ‘States). There are those who want a car (for whatever reason) and those that don’t (for whatever reason).

Finally, I personally am planning my repatriation to the Great Nanny State. I want to move my family to interior BC so they can enjoy fresh air and the great outdoors. I’d love to find and refurbish a ’67 Corvair (unlikely, but I can dream) but I also have a penchant for pre-1950’s Rolls Royce.
You are going to be a father soon, and you need to consider what is best for your family (priorities). Calm down and enjoy the ride!

And! I forgot my most poignant example: in Beijing, my coworkers showed up early, then went for breakfast but were at their desks on time for the start of the workday.
In GZ, my "coworkers" showed up on time, then went for breakfast and were ready for their morning nap half an hour later. Then mid-morning tea and a snack, another nap before lunch. Lunch, of course, was followed by a nap. Mid afternoon brought the sleepyheads back in time for mid-afternoon tea which meant that they were logy for the rest of the day.

I understand the concept of having a siesta when it's brutally hot, but the Cantonese have turned it into an all-day sleep-fest! The Cantonese are the only people that I know of who will wake up from a nap in order to sleep but will still wake up to have a nap.

Ugh. It's funny that everything's such an emergency when they're awake, but Gott im Himmel if you suggest that they work or conduct meetings immediately after lunch.

I'm still trying to remove the tar and feathers from the last time I mentioned that 1230-1420 was a perfect time to add the "emergency, must-have, must-do classes for the students."

I have a good friend who moved from Dongbei to Shenzhen and he loves it there - he basically said all of the problems about China that I complain about would be solved by moving. He was quite convincing and I'd really consider it if not for being around the wife's family and having gogten myself into a work situation that keeps getting better. He's in his 2nd year working at a factory and recently received a nice pay raise but I still make more than him doing teaching related work in a place with a lower cost of living. But in terms of quality of life.... Oh man it sounded like heaven with Chinese characteristics down there. I've never spent time in Guangdong but I've been to HK 3 times and being close to there would be a huge plus in and of itself.  

But your point about the car just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. There are lots of foreigners with cars here in Dongbei (mostly German engineers and their spouses but  I know a few teachers who drive). Honestly having a car doesn't really mean much other than you've probably been here for awhile and have no plans to leave, you need to drive to get where you need to go, or your Chinese family wants it for face. Pretty much any expat could afford to drive a car if willing to buckle down and save or better yet, have a Chinese spouse with access to a loan. I'm not really sure how the fact that a few forum members with cars happen to be from Guandong is really relevant. 

I disagree with much of what you say Mike, but I do give you a lot of upvotes because I respect you speaking your mind.

I live in GD, and no doubt we will meet up some day. And we will have a great arguement over a few beers.

Ha ha, we will argue... thats for sure.

But I have loads of friends I argue with. Life would be boring if we were all the same

I'm as far away from Guangzhou as it's possible to be.  I have a wife and a car.

What I don't have is a place to have a beer that's not a restaurant and a shop that sells anything I want to buy.

And anybody that I much care for to speak with.

But I do have my wife and my car.  And, as of three days ago, a new contract to kick on here for another year.

I've only ever stayed in GZ o/n for plane connections so can't say I know much about it.

And I haven't been anywhere else down that way either.  Haven't even been to HK.

I have been to Yunnan and that's a pretty good spot.

Beijing struck me as the arsehole of the world and one day in Shanghai doesn't allow me to comment on it.

Hangzhou's a good place and Suzhou isn't really.

Mr Bear mentioned Urumqi.  I can tell you that Urumqi has nothing going for it.  Unless you like pollution and ten million cars, all piloted by suboptimals.

Whatever...all up I'd rather be in Mr Hotwater's shoes.