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Q: 'PRC is run by a dictatorship, lacking in transparency'. Wumao retorts.........
Now that the 19th Party congress is over, an interesting dialogue between a dalu wumao (not a dialogue to the wumao, it is war, as is with everything else in life), someone senior in CCP's political bureau, retorts when a Yankee says OP's title, 'it is your democracy that gets you Trump'. The audience, compromised of Yankees politicians, roared with laughter.
To the wumao that is a clean victory. This kind of thinking is prevalent in prc. Even quite a few among their intellectuals truly believe it.
Can you spot the error in his retort? What would your response to the wumao be?
American politics is like a pendulum, if carter swings the pendulum to 3 o'clock, we elect Reagan to swing it back to 9 o'clock,
if clinton swings it to 4 o'clock, bush swings it back to 8 o'clock
if a crazy academic tries to break the pendulum and swing to 1 o'clock, you get another crazy man to swing it back to 11 o'clock.
The idea is to progress slowly left and keep between 8 and 4 but it does not always work out that way.
the point is America voted for an 11 o'clock character, his name could be trump, pence, cruz, the result would have been the same.
but trump is not far right 11 oclock on social issues being a new yorker, so its not going to be as bad as everyone says, i just hope he lives through 2 terms or Pence could cause another 1 o'clock backlash again
ambivalentmace:
One observation is Canada politics works the same way but the pendulum is much slower. I can only speculate that people in Canada are more patient and don't get pissed as quickly as the American voter.
Englteachted:
You're actually right the Liberals made themselves distasteful by adopting stances that the American public are against: legalizing 20 m illegals for the purpose of trying to change the demographics, pro trade imbalance, pro political correctness (if you give money to anti gay marriage causes, you must lose your job), bathroom nonsense and trans gender BS and the like. And let's not forget BLM
ScotsAlan:
I agree Ambi. Swing left, swing right, agreement on the good things so incremental forward progess. But it has changed now. Now its all about total obliteration of the predecessor. Back to square one with no progress. When democracy works well it is fantastic. Unfortunately its not working at the.moment. The swing vote has gone. Democracy cant work with a total 50 50 split. It needs a 15% swing voter electorate. In my opinion. It needs that 15% of swing voters to differentiate between progess and regression.
Well the people chose Trump, and they chose him for reasons. unfortunately Americans aren't too bright. But in the end, the people will chose a different leader. Oh and the difference between Trump and Xi are that we are allowed to dig into his life and critique him publicly. What do Chinese know about Xi?
earthizen:
Yup. For 3000 years, Chinese en masse speaking live their lives passively, hoping to bump into a benign dictator ( 賢 君 ) who wouldn't flog them to death. Too bad, only a few (no more than five) showed up. They have neither the guts nor wisdom to figure out a superior political model such as democracy.
Western democratic, developed countries, namely westerners have both the courage (oh yes, lives vanished) and wisdom to put this into place.
In this regard, Chinese are selfish cowards, afraid of physical pain, and morons in the bigger picture, ie political model. They dare not take up their own responsibility, instead they drag god into the picture, praying 7/24 that the divine send them a good emperor who they call the "divine's son". ( 天 子 )
They are still the same cunning cowards with the same selfishness, like their ancestors.
A two party system is just one more party than a one party system.
earthizen:
With one important difference, free will, which slaves have none when it comes to choosing their masters.
Stiggs:
Hillary or Donald... it wasn't much of a choice really, I'm sure they're both just puppets for basically the same group of big companies.
earthizen:
At least the two are not identical, no matter how small the variance is. It is like supermarkets, they basically sell the exact same products, but still, because of competition they have to look for edges, niches, ways to differentiate themselves in order to capture customers to survive meaning, the power still lies in the customers' hands. This is the spirit of democracy, isn't it?
Stiggs:
Yeah I don't disagree with you mate, the power to choose is always good, even if it's just the power to choose if your shit sandwich will be on white or brown bread it's better than no choice at all.
earthizen:
Also, because of front end competition (back end, same milk from only a handful of manufacturers (ie the rich)), the sales have to pay attention to things like customers service.
MacDonalds (prc excluded) counters have staff serving Big Macs with a smile (courtesy), and clean environment, but other burger places, not so good services, so you give your business to old Mac even though both use the same supplier. So yeah, better have chouce than being a slave.
Englteachted:
There are more than two choices in every election but Americans are too dumb to seek them out, do research and pick the right one. Americans just don't take voting seriously
Shining_brow:
I disagree.
The way the US democratic <cough> system is set up, it's not really a democracy. And, the wumao is right... Don got the top spot because people with huge amounts of money put him there (and then put huge amounts of money into the marketing). Granted, the same with Hilary.
But, while politics = media control, it's not really a democracy. It's not really that much different to having guards at the polling booths with guns, telling you who you should vote for.
Using the analogy of supermarkets.... the farmers and other producers still get screwed over by both...
Now, if political advertising was mandated to give all candidates the same amount of time and space... that could be more interesting!
earthizen:
"Using the analogy of supermarkets.... the farmers and other producers still get screwed over by both..."
To go with the analogy, the 'farmers and manufacturers' are the ones who have the control of massive resources, usually the Rich although not necessarily financially rich, but power rich (as in communists countries where use of guanxi, briberies are rampant to one's survival, e.g. to get a doctor to see you, you need a carton of cigarettes on top of money, or some special guanxi).
They're going to fuck you but you can choose the position.
earthizen:
Back to the ancient rich and poor conflict. Some people are simply more skilled at earning money the same way some are better at whatever else. Who do you want to blame?
American politics is like a pendulum, if carter swings the pendulum to 3 o'clock, we elect Reagan to swing it back to 9 o'clock,
if clinton swings it to 4 o'clock, bush swings it back to 8 o'clock
if a crazy academic tries to break the pendulum and swing to 1 o'clock, you get another crazy man to swing it back to 11 o'clock.
The idea is to progress slowly left and keep between 8 and 4 but it does not always work out that way.
the point is America voted for an 11 o'clock character, his name could be trump, pence, cruz, the result would have been the same.
but trump is not far right 11 oclock on social issues being a new yorker, so its not going to be as bad as everyone says, i just hope he lives through 2 terms or Pence could cause another 1 o'clock backlash again
ambivalentmace:
One observation is Canada politics works the same way but the pendulum is much slower. I can only speculate that people in Canada are more patient and don't get pissed as quickly as the American voter.
Englteachted:
You're actually right the Liberals made themselves distasteful by adopting stances that the American public are against: legalizing 20 m illegals for the purpose of trying to change the demographics, pro trade imbalance, pro political correctness (if you give money to anti gay marriage causes, you must lose your job), bathroom nonsense and trans gender BS and the like. And let's not forget BLM
ScotsAlan:
I agree Ambi. Swing left, swing right, agreement on the good things so incremental forward progess. But it has changed now. Now its all about total obliteration of the predecessor. Back to square one with no progress. When democracy works well it is fantastic. Unfortunately its not working at the.moment. The swing vote has gone. Democracy cant work with a total 50 50 split. It needs a 15% swing voter electorate. In my opinion. It needs that 15% of swing voters to differentiate between progess and regression.
Thanks for your comments. They help a lot.
'it is your democracy that gets you Trump'.
Our democracy does not get us a Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen Massacre.
earthizen:
Tips, those happen in a dictatorship country where quite a few of their citizens pee and shit on buses, subway stations, and streets and do the same when they travel to other countries.
Shining_brow:
"Our democracy does not get us a Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen Massacre."
I meant - yes, it does. Just not so much in your own country. The US (and, in former centuries, the other world colonial powers) have all had some version of those.. just not on their own turf.
US democracy has brought about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, as well as the assassination and downfalls of numerous heads of state in exporting coups and terrorism.
And, apparently, you've forgotten or ignored the Kent State incident... (granted, much less damaging and dramatic, but still - it's there)
earthizen:
Scale-wise Kent State incident (1970) is not even worthing mentioning relative to the ten years chinese cultural revolution (1965-75). Twenty-nine guardsmen fired approximately 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis. The death toll of cultural revolution is somewhere between 2-7 million.
Also, it is not a national massacre. Many foreigners do not catch the seriousness of these ten years. Say, for someone who was 7 years old then. All schools stopped for ten years. What level of education did they put on their CV at 17? Not even grade school level. No, they did not catch up afterwards. How the hell did a 17 years old go back to grade one and sit through another 12+ years of school? An entire generation of uneducated scums produced. They are alive, still. The psycho da-ma!!!
You think that is the end of the story? No, unfortunately. What kind of wife (well, their husbands are just as shitty to be fair) and mothers did they make? So, two shit, twisted generations. Done? No. These psychos are bringing up their grandkids which you are teaching!
Tell me what your students are like, behavior-wise. Do they copy others' homework, have manners and are civilised 'people', en masse speaking?
Shining_brow:
The vast majority of students I've had over my years of teaching in this country are fairly much the same as those I'd expect back home (although, yes - cheating has been more rampant here!).
I do recall once in one of my first classes, some shit decided to spit right there in the middle of the classroom!
However, most of the students I've had were expecting to go overseas for further study, and were part of a program to get them there. That meant having more money, and a slightly altered perception of the world.
RE: TMS and CR... I notice you haven't commented on my bit about the US system making those equivalent events happen in other countries... Given my mention of Kent State was only 1 sentence, and reference to invading and destroying other countries was 2 paragraphs, I thought it would be worth saying something about them...
RE: Kent State. I don't disagree about scale etc. I'm just combatting your statement that US democracy hasn't given bad things that have meant the injuring or killing of civilians in your own country by persons under the government's control (obviously, not referring to the all too regular "suicide by cop", or "driving while being black/Muslim" etc).
earthizen:
You have to give me the specific atrocities you were referring to, the same way you pointed out Kant State but in other developed democratic countries.
The answer is - Red Herring.
In some ways, the Chinese system of government is (at it's most ideal) a significantly better model than democracy (anywhere). In theory, those who have shown themselves capable are promoted, and so in theory, the person at the top is the most capable to lead.
Granted, yes, there is one huge problem - and that is the lack of transparency. If that were solved, then perhaps the system would be much better in practice, and much closer to the ideal.
Democracy isn't likely to change a hell of a lot, and it would be difficult to fix the issues associated with it (unless, as I suggested above) each major party or player were given equal time in the media. (also, in many countries in the world, the Trump problem wouldn't really arise. Sure, we could have a 'Trump-type' for a while, but since it's the party that's in control and not just 1 person, then that 1 person can be removed as required!)
earthizen:
" those who have shown themselves capable are promoted, and so in theory, the person at the top is the most capable to lead."
Theories regarding human behaviors are as good as rolling dices in the casino. They are not pure math theories or scientific theories like the Theory of Relativity. This is why as briliant as Einstein he is doomed to fail in his effort to come up with a formula that covers the entire universe, because you have a freak, an anomaly in this universe, homo sapiens.
When it comes to homo sapiens the attainment and sustainment of absolute power corrupts. Guess why, the most superficial yet painfully obvious answer is --- manufacturing flaw!
earthizen:
Agree, Red Herring the wumao's answer is. He never addresses the dictatorship-lacking in transparency part, he just uses the 'yours are not that good either' to defend and attack back.
Classic wumao low balling attack. Their loss because by side stepping the issue and counter-attack they learn nothing with this kind of conflict, war (Mao and communists' / cultural revolution) mentality.
This war (鬥) mindset is also a facet of dalurens' stupid face thing, meaning they will never move up the evolutionary ladder. They don't have any hope.
Why always assume that a person with a different political viewpoint is a paid for wumao?
The Chinese constitution says China is a democratic dictatorship. So China is a dictatorship by definition.
Ok, lots of parts of the Chinese constitution are ignored. Universal sufferege for example. That has to be fixed.
Need to have an open mind. If you have a vote, be a swing voter.
All I can say is this. When a Chinese colleague approached me this week, and said Trumo is an idiot, democracy does not work... I could not disagree with him on both points.
All democracies are not equal. Some are less equal than others.
earthizen:
Of course he is a wumao. You cannot not be a wumao when you are a senior CCP member.
How many years does Trump have? Max, 8. How many years did Mao have? From 1949 to 1976, till his death. Why? He was a dictator!
Democratic dictatorship is an oxymoron. Democracy means you have choices when electing your leaders.
Why be blind to the inevitability of dictatorship --- absolute power corrupts? Not just rampant corruption, with people like Mao you get the bonus of a cultural revolution and with Deng you get the Tiananmen Square Massacre, both you probably have heard of but your misguided faith led you to sweep them under the carpet, or brush them off with 'make sure they don't happen again'.
Study a little history and you know they happen again and again, even a high school kid who does not sleep through his World History classes knows that. Which democratic, developed country has atrocities like these? Just name one.
