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Q: PSB exit permit obstruction
Even from the other side of the planet, the PSB manages to dampen my spirits.
My wife went to the PSB for an entry & exit permit for our kids. A bit unnecessary, because my half-Chinese children were already denied inclusion to our Hukou (household registry) because foreigner or one-child-policy (the reasons are too stupid, and system too corrupt, to remember precisely).
So, a trip to the PSB would be a courtesy call only. Imagine our surprise when the permit office said they can't travel to Germany because they are British... They would only issue an exit permit for the UK, where our family is not going. My wife took it anyway.
How on Earth do you force the PSB to do its job properly? Will things be easier if my wife has her visa to Germany in her hands?
8 years 34 weeks ago in Transport & Travel - China
PSB Exit permit received.
Place(s ) of destination:
---
Port(s ) of entry:
Open ports
Valid for:
One exit & entry
As was surmised, it was much ado about nothing.
The permits look like a passport. Handsome pics of my boys on them.
if i bring my children out of China, will authorities stop me because they have no exit permit? Can they be sued for obstruction?
27pence:
Can you travel to UK, and then just fly to wherever you are in Germany. Might be difficult for your wife with Schengen not covering UK, so she might need to fly to Germany, and you go back to China, pick up the kids fly with them to the UK, and then go to Germany from there.
coineineagh:
for that, my wife would need a British visa. Our notarized documents are in german, so unlikely to apply for a British visa. I was thinking of travelling via a German stopover all in the same plane. Me and the kids to London allegedly, and my wife to Germany, seemingly separate. My wife could go directly to Germany, and I would cancel the onward flight to London during my German stopover. But unless we can successfully pose as traveling separately in the same flight, customs will probably stop us before boarding. Bloody bullies.
27pence:
I was trying to indicate, that the wife flies to Germany, and you guys fly to the UK, and then buy a separate flight for you and the two kids from UK to Germany. Not ideal, but if you really want to get out of China, you need to look at all possibilities. The pretending to go to UK via Germany might work, but the Germans would see your API showing you were booked to carry on to UK, and might ask questions, but if your children have British passports, they can not be denied entry into Germany.
Feel bad for you.
Is this to be their first trip outside of China? Are you accompanying them on this trip? Did your wife show proof (tickets) that they were to be traveling to Germany?
Hard to tackle your question because there can be so many variables that they consider as well.
coineineagh:
the visa and tickets might make a difference. she doesn't have them yet. if she does, maybe the pinheads at the PSB will realize it's no trickery.
Your story doesn't make any sense. Entry and exit permits aren't exclusive to a country and they are only of use for entry and exit in China.
In fact they only exist in lieu of a Residence Permit so China can avoid acknowledging your child's nationality (= putting a sticker on his/her regular passport). Same reason they don't use passports for HK and Macau. Face, denial and the such.
From what I read, I can only deduce you simply didn't properly do your homework on the subject and only half-understood the clear explanations they gave you.
coineineagh:
Settle down, you look stupid telling me I don't understand their clear instruction. First of all I'm not in China, so I didn't speak to the PSB. It was quite clearly stated in my OP. Did you not understand my clear explanation, but decided to 'contribute' regardless? Thanks for telling me my story doesn't make sense to YOU. I didn't ask and I wasn't interested in being briefed on your level of understanding.
coineineagh:
"Your story doesn't make any sense." is the quintessential introduction to a bullshit response: I-decided-you're-a-troll-so-I'm-going-to-randomly-claim-consistent-things-are-inconsistent-to-feel-smug-in-my-unhelpfulness. Just bugger off.
RiriRiri:
You really don't need to get upset. Your story doesn't make sense from an administrative standpoint. Here's why:
An entry & exit permit isn't country-specific. It is a booklet just like a passport, only used in PRC. It doesn't make sense they'd refuse one because of your destination. They don't even have to know you have a destination in the first place - just like a passport. It could be for a day trip in Hong Kong as far as they are concerned.
So yeah, to me it sounds like homework not done, even more so when you don't seem to even know clearly why your children were denied Hukou or when I see you consider a trip to the PSB as a "courtesy'. How could you claim there was any preparation in that.
Now, what I'd do is:
- do the research.
- gather the document following precisely the guideline, print the guideline.
- go again, this time not as a "courtesy".
- in case of fail, call the complaint hotline
coineineagh:
"An entry & exit permit isn't country-specific." - I'd love that to be true, but my (admittedly limited) research doesn't corroborate this. There is a destination printed on the permit they gave. Can you quote any rule book for this claim?
RiriRiri:
Do you mind telling me which PSB are you attached to? In private if you want. I'll check the specifics.
ScotsAlan:
Coins story does make sense. Information on this subject is difficult to find. The forums are full of conflicting stories.
You may be in trouble. Are you kids born in China? Are they on Chinese passports?
coineineagh:
Born here but no Chinese passports. not even allowed a hukou entry. Denying them the right to exit if you deny them citizen rights seems a bit inconsistent. Unless the rules are to service China regardless of applicability.
What I'd like to know, is if the PSB has any legal basis to deny my children the right to exit. They are foreign citizens.
If we write a written statement, formally giving up my sons' claims to Chinese nationality, then would that change anything?
sorrel:
Sorry i can't be more helpful, but it could just be the 'jobs-worth' arbitrariness of the official you are dealing with.
We all know that they can be 'little napoleon's' with their tiny piece of power.
Did you go back and find another official in the office to deal with?
if your children are not chinese, is there a someone in your embassy you can ask?
i know you have probably tried these things, but i can't think of anything more useful to suggest
good luck with this 
coineineagh:
I wrote to the German and British embassies, asking if they can talk to the PSB, or offer any advice. My wife has an 'uncle' in the PSB, so she will try to ask his help. A bribe might be cheaper than the flight to London. Chinese use bureaucracy as an inaccessible, exclusionary obstruction to disadvantage everyone except the rich, just like their written script. And their immigration officials don't (want to) know how the EU open border zone works.
Is there a logical reason you can't go via HK instead? So the exit actually is from the mainland to HKland... and what you do after that is up to you.
for the exit paper, we have to travel to my wifes hometown, get some docs - sorry, i forgot which ones - , also staement that he is not chinese citizen, having his foreign passport, my passport, airtickets we purchased 6 month prior the traveling , and it helped a lot in this case. It was also harsh with them, doing it for 2 or 3 times, always some "higher" responsible was not in office today and so on. but we got it in advance as about 2 month prior traveling.
that person there might not know his work, especialy when they meet foreigner twice per year in McDonald only. so just continue to try, try , try ... finally they will give it to you.
I was cautioned against having children born here, to a chinese mother, by the PSB officer who comes to my school once a year. He mentioned cases such as yours.
coineineagh:
there is no ulteripr motive to that friendly warning, i'm sure. ;p
rasklnik:
No he said that a Chinese Baby, Born in China, to a Chinese Mother is legally Chinese, and although the US will give it a passport, the in-laws could prevent me from taking it with me, or something. China doesn't have dual citizenship even for minors...it seems.
-Of course, this is China...who knows?
coineineagh:
there are no relatives who protest their departure. only the PSB dictating the destination.
I have just had an epic duel with UK immigration to get my daughter there. It was so epic I played the role that Charlton Heston was paid millions for. Unlike Heston, my epic cost me loads. All because consular staff are not allowed, by law, to give advice. Your twins are British. So they cant get a visa. They need a "certificate of entitlement to right of abobe" for the UK. Unfortunately, that only gives UK citizenship rights. They are not full EU citizens unless they have an EU passport. But Chinese kids with eu passports cant leave china...
ScotsAlan:
Yup. This is a mess. You need get your kids certificate of entitlement. Get you wife a Shengen visa. Fly your kids to uk, on their own. Meet them, get UK passports, then take them to mainland Europe. UK is not part of Shengen area... So difficult.
ScotsAlan:
My daughter has certificate of entitlement in her Chinese passport. With that,she is uk citizen. To be an EU citizen she would need a UK passport. Which is automatic if you have certificate of entitlement. So go to uk, get their passports, then Europe is open. But they will need a visa to return to China.
ScotsAlan:
Just read your post again coin... What passport do your kids have? Chinese women are always trying to out do Government.I know about this enry exit book.Your wife is trying to copy others. My wife done the same but messed up. I suspect Chinese passport with consular birth certificate.
coineineagh:
we haven't picked them up yet, but there are two child passports waiting for my sons at the British Chongqing consulate.
OK, from what I found so far, it is highly likely that the Exit Entry Permit is not country-specific, as RiriRiri suggested, despite what a local PSB bureau printed on it as intended destination. Likely is far from certain, unfortunately.
I asked British, Dutch and German consulates for advice, which was probably fruitless if Scotsalan's claim is true that consular staff are forbidden by law to give advice.
I got a call from Beijing on my phone here in Holland; a reply to my query to the Dutch embassy. A cheerful guy told me there are no known cases of Dutch citizens being stopped at the airport with a valid Exit Entry Permit due to a 'destination indiscrepancy'. Dutch immigration policy is notoriously strict, so I'm unsure how much weight to give the staff member's opinion. He seemed honestly helpful,and Dutch are frequent travelers to all sorts of countries, so the embassy would know of such "barred exit" incidents if they occured.
I'm continuing my avenues of investigation, even asking British relatives for a formal invite for my wife so we can all travel together. I'll keep the topic updated when events unfold.
ScotsAlan:
If your sons have British passports you will need go to the PSB here and get S visa RPs. Then they can exit. My problem was different. I wanted our daughter to keep her Chinese passport. From my understanding of it, a mixed kid can have a foreign passport in China and the Government still considers them Chinese. But as soon as they cross the border with a foreign passport they have recinded their Chinese citizenship. I know of some people who fooled the system by having foreign passports for the kids but used a Chinese travel document to go home. But yeah, S visa RP in their UK passports and no problem. Cant leave China on a foreign passport without a Chinese chop in it and all that.
As a matter of interest, when your twins were born, did you register them as Chinese or foreign?
I ask because I want to gather as much info on this subject as I can to maybe help other posters in the future.
Most threads on this subject on all forums are full of a lot of rubbish. I have been through one scenario, you are going through another. Be good to get it all down in facts for the future.
coineineagh:
My "twin boys" are 13 and 25 months old now. They were issued their Entry Exit permits before they even picked up their British passports, if you can believe that. What we are fretting about now, is whether the destination "yingguo" printed on the permit will prevent them from exiting to Germany...
I'd guess it depends how you exit china. I've read about this situation before but unfortunately can't find the webpage where I'd read it.
If if they fly out of china, directly to Germany, then I think they'd have a problem checking in for their flight. If they went to HK first and got past immigration then they'd be okay to fly wherever they wanted on their UK passports. What I don't know is if immigration when leaving china to HK would check if they had flights booked. I'll check some more to see what I can find.
Does your wife have your kids exit permits yet?
Do they state the destination of them?
If no destination stated on the exit permit them no problem!
Read ad the first page of this topic from Shexpat.
http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/phpbbforum/help-exit-permit-issue-t161350.h...
Once you exit China how is the Permit relevant? They are not country specific. They are simply alternatives to a visa for entering and exiting China itself.
Simply go to the airport and bring the kids passports and permits with you. When you leave China through Emigration they will stamp your kids out in their permits. Then you can put those away in the darkest depths of your bags and simply use their UK passports to enter whatever country you like.
Be careful though remember that they are Entry and Exit permits are valid for three months from issue. Any time over that and you might be sent to the UK Embassy for new permits.
I've still got my son's permit from this summer, there is nothing about a destination in it.
Hotwater:
I'd guess that once they are out they could then get Chinese family visit visas and re-enter china using there UK passports
lewn:
That isn't possible. The Embassy won't issue family visas if one parent is Chinese and not a permanent resident of a foreign country, the Permits are the only way. But they are fairly cheap and easy to obtain.
Also never give them a real birth certificate for your child they will keep it, so give them a hi-rez copy.
coineineagh:
didn't know about the validity date. but they are issued by PSB not embassy.
lewn:
If you are in the UK they are issued by the Embassy, if you are in China they are issued by the PSB.
For example if a Chinese citizen without UK residency and a UK national have a child in the UK, the kid will be issued an Entry and Exit Permit. I'm speaking from personal experience.
PSB Exit permit received.
Place(s ) of destination:
---
Port(s ) of entry:
Open ports
Valid for:
One exit & entry
As was surmised, it was much ado about nothing.
The permits look like a passport. Handsome pics of my boys on them.
