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Posts: 7182

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Q: Teacher slavery. Denial of illegal status.

Met a bunch of teachers tonight. Americans. All working for an international school. Not a single one has a a work permit card. They all said the school holds it.

That is slavery.

They got their jobs via echinacities adverts.

Not a single one, from about 10, had even seen a work permit.

Whats the deal with that?

Teachers too thick to use google?

6 years 9 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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@ scotts

I'm wondering why you care so much and appear quite emotional about this situation.

I couldn't tell you the visa status of good mates here. Nor do i care. Why should i care as long as he is a decent person? It isn't something that has ever come up in conversation.

If i met some random lawai out and about and he was interested in my visa/wp details, i would think:

a) fuck off, it's none of your business

b) informant

c) do you want to measure my B against your C?

d) this is creepy

e) there are some nosy pricks about

f) who the fuck does this clown think he is?

g) all of the above

Englteachted:

There is a very good reason but if we state it the user mod will delete it. Ask yourself this question, does it sound crazy? The answer is actually 100% true, I mean actually

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

I’m 100% sure that his obsession stems from the fact that he is a “C” status worker with “B” envy. 

6 years 9 weeks ago
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iWolf:

B-ness envy?

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Against the rules to answer own question.... But I want backup... it is totally and completely illegal for a compnay to withold documents that you are required to carry at all times. Agree?

LESchools:

Holding on to and withholding are not the same thing. Have anyone of them ask for the cards and been refused? Were their entry visas converted to a Temporary Residence Permit? Yes, then they have a card. Not seeing and not having are not the same thing.

6 years 8 weeks ago
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6 years 9 weeks ago
 
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'Dial SAFEA and ask them for an opinion ....'

 

I might be a little outdated, i.e. I am not really familiar with last Law changes ... buTT.. I was working with Helen in 2010 in Hangzhou (Lin'an) at Public School on 90-days F visa. Helen promised Working permit after 90-days F, but they got me another F (and kept my passport!), instead.

I dialled SAFEA and they sort Helen out fast.

I posted here about ... one of my first threads.

Considering teachers you met, they could ask SAFEA for confidentiality, so they wouldn't meet any repercussions from the School they are working.

They could also say to the School's manager, cops ID them and asked for the Work permit card ...

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6 years 9 weeks ago
 
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Sorry. Fucking pisses me off when I hear Americans say.... but I dont need a work visa, I am here to educate... I dont need a visa.

Follow the fucking law. Ignorance is not defense.

icnif77:

I am not sure from your post, are they working legally or illegally without WP.?

You might not be sure either ... so, why bother? They are illegal workers everywhere. That's always personal choice.

They might agreed with all illegal work 'cause 'no-docs.-authenticity stamp' as one of the reasons. I got many offers to work with F last year, when I told School it's too much trouble to get my docs. authenticated.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

Did any of these 10 or so Americans say this last night? Or are you putting each RFA into their mouths? Your obsession with potentially illegal workers isn’t healthy. 

6 years 9 weeks ago
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What slums do you hang out in? Five years in China, I have not met a single American who has said anything like that.    

Hotwater:

Read my reply below...

6 years 9 weeks ago
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From what I notice is that most people don't care about the laws too much when it comes to working since they only plan on staying for a year. I understand their thinking, if they get caught, its not a big deal to them, so they get a small fine and maybe get deported..they were going to leave anyway.I have even seen people who have all right credentials and from the right countries and still choose to work on a marriage or the wrong visa....in those cases its usually because the school the hires them cant hire foreigners and they just go along with it for whatever stupid reason.

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My company holds mine, I saw my WP card twice now during my renewals, for some reason transferring to a new job required me to do two 6 month working visa's, so the PSB told me my next visa will be a 1 year again after my 2018 July renewal.  So during the interview at the PSB I saw the card, held it, scanned it and gave it back to my company for safe keeping as I still just need to hold on to my passport.

 

We should note that the WP card is not an ID to show police you are legally in China, as most of us that it would help us with that so we would not need our passports in our bags 24/7 during the day.

The WP card is only a card that says we have a degree, we're healthy enough to work here, we have no criminal past and so on, than finally it is used at the PSB to give the PSB the OK to give us our working resident permit.

 

So WP card or  the old Expert stamp book 90% of companies still hold it in the HR or Accountants office locked up and thats ok, you really don't need it for anything, its useless during your daily life.  Just scan it with wechat and save it in your favorites.

 

As for American illegals working, sounds like they came here on those 10 year biz visa's and probably will never get caught unless someone reports them to the local PSB of where you get your visas at, you'd need their name and picture and a wechat ID helps. You'd get 300 RMB for each arrest.

icnif77:

You could never open a Bank account without FEC! I know I couldn't! Cops always asked 'what are you doing in China?', after they looked at RP in passport. That happened to me last year in Guiyang.

300 RMB? That's a tidy sum!

6 years 9 weeks ago
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ironman510:

Wow really? I haven't tried to open a bank account in years, they must have changed the banking policy. The only thing that relates to this in Shenzhen is that if i want to buy a sim card from China Mobile, China Telecom or Unicom directly I need to go to SAFEA and get a permission letter from them and than I can get it.

 

So I bought mine on the black-market, meaning the small booths you see outside haha.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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icnif77:

I always had somebody else's sim .... they tried to get it with my passport, buTT ... in the end Chinese ID was only good for sim.

Bank account always 2 docs. with pic. I reopen Bank account every year once on average. As I changed cities, I had to reopen CMB account and I always wait till FEC arrival ....

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Sorry Scots but you’re writing bollocks here!

 

Just because they’ve never seen their work permit cards DOES NOT MAKE THEM ILLEGAL!

 

We know someone at that school who used to post on here. He’s fully legal. We also know (slightly) someone st that school who is in charge of making sure the new teachers are okay. She’s fully legal. 

 

So the school is holding their work permit cards? So what? It doesn’t make them slsves PLUS it does NOT say on the card that you have to carry it at all times (Granted the AEP booklet did say that). 

 

 

biggj123:

I dont understand the reason for holding it though.......I dont see the reason for not letting you have it...maybe im missing something?

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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What happens when you finish a contract and move on, does the school need to hand the card back to the PSB?

 

A school I worked at once told me that's why they kept the books we were given (forget what they were called but we got them with the RP), they needed them every time they dealt with the PSB and when a teacher left they had to be surrendered. Teachers kept losing them and causing a lot of problems so the school started holding on to them.

 

Maybe the same reason here?

 

biggj123:

Yeah that makes sense.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Exactly Stiggs what Scots is trying to do is equate not possessing your work permit with working illegally completely ignoring the fact that you will have the resident permit in your fucking passport

6 years 9 weeks ago
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ironman510:

About the Card and end of contract.

 

A. Contract is over, don't wanna stay.

B. Card is returned back to SAFEA, BUT, the card #number is stays the same forever, its your so called Hukou working permit card#.. Just like an SSN#..

C. You get the normal release doc's and paper work from the old job and moe to a new company.

D. The New company uploads the 5 doc's to the SAFEA site and waits 5 days for a date to bring the doc's in for checking (blind checking lol).

E. But the new company will select a box called "has a WP card #" they enter that and thus you are already approved and just need to wait for the new cards release unless you were a bad bad boy or got a poor health check up.

 

So I think the new system great because they keep our card# the same.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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LESchools:

I think the idea with the cards, is one person one card and the card can be updated digitally. So going forward the person would take the card from company to company. They are so new, I haven't heard anything about it.

6 years 8 weeks ago
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The WP card is virtually useless in daily life though, it isn't accepted anywhere, can't book train tickets with it, can't book hotels with it, can't open a bank account with it, etc... and if you ever get checked by the cops they will want to see your passport instead of it.

 

It just feels safer to have it, or more powerful over your own destiny in China, but it's not going to make your life any easier.

Englteachted:

What Scots is trying to say is that they're working illegally. And therefore America is bad China is great

6 years 9 weeks ago
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I'm legal, always have been and I have my reasons for choosing that route,,, but I do admire the illegal workers.

 

∆ Fight The Man !

∆ Power to the People!

∆ Fk the System!

∆ Challenge Authority!

∆ Big Brother is Watching!

 

There used to be tons of illegals in Guangzhou,,,, anyone know if that's still the case?

Englteachted:

Read very carefully Scots post. 

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Stiggs:

A few of the best, most dedicated teachers with a real knack for teaching I met were technically illegal, they didn't have the four year degree or the nationality but the school was able to sort them out.

 

And some of the most worthless, lazy, unimaginative teachers I met were actually quite well qualified for the job.

 

I think China was more interesting and fun back in the day when there were less foreigners and they tended to be more eclectic and quirky. Seemed like almost everyone entered the country on a tourist or business visa or was working on one - something you'd never even consider now but that was cool because that's just how it was then. Stay out of trouble and nobody cared as long as your school had the connections they needed.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Scots, you're an uneducated idiot trying to pass yourself off as enlightened. 

 

"Not a single one has a a work permit card. They all said the school holds it.

That is slavery."

 

You seem to not understand English and have 0 ability to think logically. 

First let me address your misunderstanding. The FEC book was often kept by schools because it had to be returned to the govt office but if I ever needed it or requested to hold it, I would get it sometimes sign an agreement taking responsibility. So there is nothing sinister to this. If those teachers needed they could request a copy and apply for other jobs (I don't know if the original is needed)

Do you know what slavery is? No choice and and no pay are 2 big parts of slavery and those teachers can choose to leave and are being paid.

 

 

 

icnif77:

Old FEC book is/was mine 'cause it required my pic! Cops always wanted to see it together with passport at ID. Banks always required 2 docs. to open an account.

School wants to hold it, because cancellation of FEC by School was required by SAFEA in order to get new FEC, i.e. hire new FT.

If you walk out from School with FEC, School has a lot of troubles to get new FEC for another FT, but holding FEC by School is illegal!

I am also confused by this thread.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Bollocks. your work permit belongs to you. Not to your emplyer.

If you are working in chna, and you dont have a work permit, in your walllet... you are not legal.

biggj123:

Well thats a bit extreme. If you have one, you have one, it's like a drivers license, I dont need it when im not driving a car, I only need it when I get pulled over in my car, So if your working and the authorities check, you should be at your school right? That means its always on location. I don't get why you're so hyped up about this....

 

 

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Again you prove my statement which was deleted to be true!!!!!! Dude, I've been checked by the police that deals with foreigners. 

Yes the FEC / WP card is considered to be your ID but you're not legally required to possess it at all times, Chinese law states you must be in possession of your passport at all times. Your passport includes yourRP which means you have a WP.

 

Why do I  even bother. here's a bit of advice focus on yourself.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

Bollocks back. The WP cars does NOT have to be in your wallet (I checked the card and scanned the code before posting above). Nowhere on the new card does it state you have to carry it on you at all times. 

 

It  is NOT legal ID here. Only your passport is ID. The resident permit in your passport will say 工作 if you’ve got a work permit. 

 

As Wolfies comment - you need to get over this obsession with work permits & who has then. The only time I give a shit is when some random foreigner in a bar is ranting about illegals taking jobs in their country - then I’ll ask about their status. 

6 years 9 weeks ago
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@ scotts

I'm wondering why you care so much and appear quite emotional about this situation.

I couldn't tell you the visa status of good mates here. Nor do i care. Why should i care as long as he is a decent person? It isn't something that has ever come up in conversation.

If i met some random lawai out and about and he was interested in my visa/wp details, i would think:

a) fuck off, it's none of your business

b) informant

c) do you want to measure my B against your C?

d) this is creepy

e) there are some nosy pricks about

f) who the fuck does this clown think he is?

g) all of the above

Englteachted:

There is a very good reason but if we state it the user mod will delete it. Ask yourself this question, does it sound crazy? The answer is actually 100% true, I mean actually

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

I’m 100% sure that his obsession stems from the fact that he is a “C” status worker with “B” envy. 

6 years 9 weeks ago
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iWolf:

B-ness envy?

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Shifu

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Maybe they couldn't get it and are feeding you ***.

As for the passport thing. it is your ID. Why would someone give up their ID.

The PSB will always give you a temporary document in lieu of your passport.

 

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About the Card and end of contract.

 

A. Contract is over, don't wanna stay.

B. Card is returned back to SAFEA, BUT, the card #number stays the same forever, its your so called Hukou working permit card#.. Just like an SSN#..

C. You get the normal release doc's and paper work from the old job and move to a new company.

D. The New company uploads the 5 doc's to the SAFEA site and waits 5 days for a date to bring the doc's in for checking (blind checking lol).

E. But the new company will select a box called "has a WP card #" they enter that and thus you are already approved and just need to wait for the new card release unless you were a bad bad boy or got a poor health check up due to that bird.

 

So I think the new system is great because they keep our card# the same.

diverdude1:

We need a new thread, but I am hoping we all post real-world accounts of what happens  with us ABC Card holders when the current contracts begin expiring.  I'm looking to change both employer and province and I'm wondering if the new place is going to bust my chops about the "I'm Really Not a Criminal and I have the Official Stamp to Prove it Document'.

So, guys, post your real-life goings on's regarding anything to do with the new card system.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

Great feedback with one problem!

 

If the employee has never seen the WP card then how can they know their number?

 

I'm asking in the case of an employer who refuses to issue release paperwork.

6 years 9 weeks ago
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ironman510:

Your passport #number in the SAFEA office will bring up your card number if you really need it, but like before and the same rules are still here you need the release letter and always good to try to walkout with a good reference letter. 

 

Now if they refuse than you have to play "lets make a deal", if that doesn't work than you go to SAFEA and report this because now all schools are on the SAFEA's computers, school don't  wanna or at least shouldn't want to build up a bad record so I'm sure SAFEA now can do something to help, before no, but now yes, they must.

6 years 8 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Hotwater, you can just ask for a copy as I did.

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A: In my personal experience, teaching certificates have varied in releva
A:In my personal experience, teaching certificates have varied in relevance depending on the context and location. Here's a breakdown of each aspect:a) Getting the teaching job: Teaching certificates can certainly enhance your chances of securing a teaching position, especially in formal educational settings such as schools and language institutions. Many employers prefer candidates who have undergone specific training in pedagogy and instructional techniques, which these certificates often provide. However, other factors such as experience, references, and the demand for teachers in a particular area also play significant roles in the hiring process.b) Getting a higher salary than your uncertified competitors: In some cases, holding a teaching certificate can indeed lead to a higher salary compared to uncertified competitors. Many educational institutions have structured salary scales that take into account factors such as level of education, years of experience, and additional certifications. Holding a teaching certificate may place you in a higher salary bracket or make you eligible for certain salary incentives or bonuses. However, this can vary widely depending on the specific policies of the institution or organization.c) Getting promotions: Teaching certificates can be beneficial for career advancement and securing promotions within the field of education. They demonstrate a commitment to professional development and mastery of teaching skills, which are qualities that many employers value when considering candidates for leadership positions or administrative roles. Additionally, some promotions may require specific certifications or qualifications, making holding a teaching certificate essential for advancement in certain cases.Regarding which certificate yields better results, it largely depends on the specific requirements of the job market and the educational context in which you intend to work. For example:A Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE) is often highly regarded in formal school settings and can be advantageous for those seeking positions in primary or secondary education.Montessori certification is valuable for individuals interested in working in Montessori schools or implementing Montessori principles in their teaching approach.A Teaching English as a Foreign Language (TEFL) certificate is particularly relevant for those seeking to teach English to non-native speakers in international contexts or language schools.Ultimately, the best certificate for you will depend on your career goals, the specific requirements of the positions you're interested in, and the preferences of potential employers in your target job market. It's essential to research the requirements and preferences of employers in your desired field and tailor your qualifications accordingly. -- ruqaiya761