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Q: "Unethical"... what do you think?

Quick question - what's so 'unethical' about suggesting to one's students (quite truthfully) that they'd be far better off paying a teacher for tutoring them 1-on-1, than just doing (or not, as is often the case) the classroom/home work???

 

I've been 'soliciting' one or students who need a good IELTS score, to help them individually... (but, basically after they've indicated they want that level of help) given they really want to go overseas to study, and the 'class' is basically a money-spinner for the company, and they've even taken in 'students' (fools) for a mere 2 month block in the middle of the year.. the class has no organisation, and the students have very low motivation to be there... as well as such a disparity of language levels. (ie, there was no entrance assessments given - they were just thrown into a class, and their money taken).

 

Thoughts???

10 years 46 weeks ago in  Business & Jobs - China

 
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have not found a good ielts training school , i teach ielts to grade 1 and 2 high school students to go to canada and they get 6 scores. many college students go to training schools and cant get an average of 5 after spending ridiculous amounts of money.

when ive worked at training schools they say my class is to hard and to teach easy english so they can pay again for another class. i always tell them that uncommon vocabulary to get a 6 is by its nature not easy.

i think listening test should be done at every english grade level, sadly some university dont even do this, they say its not needed and my reply is always, can i learn chinese without listening to chinese.  dumb blank stares for a response, tutoring for ielts speaking would be best.

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I see no problem in giving extra tutoring on the side. There might be a bit of a nagging feeling since you find your clients in class, but hey, TIC

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ok let me get this straight, you are working for a private training school. and you are soliciting your students to become your private students? if for pay, what you are doing is unethical. you can make up any excuse you want, but when you sign on with a company to do a job, you should do your best to carry out the task within the limitations of the company. when working for a private school you must have some respect for the business side of it. how  do you expect them to pay your salary? you can't have your cake and eat it to. you can't have the big salary while teaching 1 on 1 's , expecting the school to make nothing or the student to pay a fortune. 

trav actually makes a good point. if you feel you can't give it your best under those conditions then find a more suitable job. 

but understand this stealing students away from your school to line your own pockets is a breach of trust between you and the school and also between you and your students. here is why it is unethical. you are biased. you put yourself in a situation where you will benefit from them following your advice. (if you say they should get 1 on 1 from another teacher or you tutor them for free , then it is ok)

 

i hope i understood the question clearly. from the way you wrote this post you seem to know this already

Hulk:

I completely agree with you. That's why I'd only accept 1 on 1 students ages 7 and up. My school only accepts children ages 2-6, so I'm not in any way hurting their business.

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Traveler:

Crimo: Exactly right. Also, this came up in a short discussion with Xpat John a little while ago. Apparently it is illegal to do such work unless it is done through your company, and you pay tax on it.

 

I have also been doing some research recently, and it seems the Chinese government is cracking down on teachers meeting their students individually outside the workplace, especially children. This especially includes one-on-one tutoring, and is because of the recent outrage about paedophile teachers.

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Crimo and Hulk... to clarify...

 

I work for a company that does a number of programs to try to get students into OS universities. They also decided to try their hand at IELTS for no other reason than to get some money out of them... there is NO curriculum, NO coursework, NO textbook... NOTHING!

 

When I was first thrown this class, I was told there were NO expectations for them (that's THEM - the students!). Hence why in this class there have been students who are around an IELTS 1, and those closing on a 5 (or 6).

 

Why am I teaching them? Well, because I also do other classes - those more dedicated students who put in the work, the effort, etc etc... that's why I'm there!!! I was unfortunately pegged to teach this other lot 'on the side' so to speak!

 

Now, any good and qualified teacher knows that there are some environments in which students really just can't improve as well as you'd like them to - such as vastly disparate abilities.

 

I do give a hell of a lot of my effort and energy to this class... and I have improvements... I've had success!!! But, as a good teacher, I know that there's a lot more than can be done - and the classroom environment is NOT the best place for that (OMG really??? I mean, didn't we all learn English only when we started going to school???)

 

As for why this question, and the hint that perhaps I think it actually is - bzzz, sorry, no cigar! I posted because it was suggested to me by someone that it is unethical. I'm failing to see why (still...).

10 years 46 weeks ago
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crimochina:

you still work for the school. i love coming up with my own lessons. that means i could use methods and lessons that actually work.

let's look at what you said you said the school said "blah blah blah" who wares what they said? you are the teacher. teach the class the way you see fit. but do not make excuses , while trying to steal the students . and it is unethical, you know it is unethical.  

i'll give you an example, my class is 10 students only 1 is serious and actually mentally capable. so i started doing more challenging lessons. i talked to her on the side and told her to pay attention when the other lower level students were speaking so she could learn from their mistakes and i even use her to correct the other students. after class i make sure i leave time for her to address some of her questions.

what i can't figure out is why you are posting this. this is china, ethics do not apply. many chinese teachers short change their full time students to solicit them for private tutoring. if you can not help them in class and want to teach them on the side to earn extra money then go ahead. but it is unethical. if i was an avon lady, it would be unethical to try and sell to my students, do you get it? it is a breach of trust to try and sell services to your students. it is unethical to give self-servicing advice to your students.

why even bring up stuff about your school. you choose to work there. did you think they were honest, noble and all about helping the students?  

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Hulk:

Shining, I'm not ragging on you, btw. I don't have any beef with you. I just can't justify the idea of taking students from my school. I mean, if they came to me by themselves, and asked for lessons, I wouldn't have much of a  problem with that, but I wouldn't actively seek them out.

 

Here's an example: one student at my school has very rich and well-connected parents. His father wants his son to learn English by living in the same house as me. They didn't ask me for anything, and didn't expect any "lessons." His father, who speaks amazingly clear English, just wants him to pick a few things up here and there.

 

This wasn't my idea - they asked by themselves. My wife agreed to it without asking me first... lol. Before I knew it, we had a roommate/housecleaner/etc. I was telling her that I thought about hiring a nanny to help her out, and she went and found one very quickly. The school actually approached my wife about this, and since she has such a good heart, she agreed to take them in - albeit without asking me.

 

Now we got a cooker, cleaner, etc. They've renovated the apartment, added more appliances, etc. Even the grandmother speaks a little English. The child still goes to the school I go to. This lady buys all the food in the house, further saving us money.

10 years 46 weeks ago
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I had a similar dilema like you this year.  I had one of my middle school students try to hire me to work on his oral English, and teach him how to do a speech and an essay.  He had an entrance exam for a Chinese-American partnership school in China.  At the time, around Spring Festival, the students were taking finals and I was not  teaching.  The other Chinese teachers were still on the job, and we were all getting paid.  I did not charge the student for his oral English lessons since this was the reason the school hired me.  I did charge him for teaching him how to do a speech and write essays on my own time.  We did about forty hours and I only charged him about 1400 Yuan. 

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If you were working as Marketing Manager for a Cadillac franchise and persuaded your potential clients to instead by a Buick from another franchise that you happened to own would you deem that unethical?

 

You're doing the same thing with your Centre's students.

Shining_brow:

Analogies are fun :)

 

There is one element where YOUR analogy fails.. and that is - customer comes to you and says "I want XYZ in a car - can you give me that?" You don't have something that suits the customer, and yet, you still go and sell them your Cadi, even though you know the Buick is better.... THAT'S unethical!

 

Let me posit my own analogy.... I am a carpenter who works for a stingy boss. Boss takes an order for some wooden furniture, but says I have to use only the cheap balsa wood. I know the wood will fall apart shortly, but I give it my best shot... after that (or during), I go to the customer and offer to make decent quality furniture out of some nice pine...

 

(as I just wrote above, and to continue the analogy, let's just say that our main product line is in kitchen cabinets, but the boss thought about getting some extra cash by ripping of this fool who only wants the table and chairs set...).

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Btw - looking for a legitimate reason WHY  it's 'unethical' - not merely saying "well, of course it is!!!"

 

(interesting addendum... I mentioned this to my colleague today - he, not surprisingly, said "yeah, that's how it normally works"... ie, getting your own students for tutoring! TIC!!)

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let me try this again now that i'm lathered up.

 

you are abusing your power as a teacher by telling your students that they should pay you to be their private teacher. if you help them for free, ok. if you tell them they should have sb other than you, ok. you do not use your position as a teacher to sell anything to your students. understood? 

now if you want to do what is unethical, ok go ahead and do it. does not mean you are a bad person. this is china!

Shining_brow:

I get your point, Crimo...

 

But, TBCH, I really don't get this idea of 'ethics' in the way that others seem to have it in their minds. Doing something for nothing is ok, doing something for someone else's profit is ok... doing something for your own is bad... sorry, no - you lost me there!

 

It's ok for me to spend my time and energy on someone in my chosen profession and career - and not expect any recompense... I don't get that! How often do lawyers, plumbers, electricians, etc give pro bono?? Oh, because now you're desperate, that makes a difference??

 

Now, had I been holding back all my good stuff, just to make it on the side - yes, I'd agree with that.

 

I haven't (in my mind) abused my position as a teacher - a couple have said to me that they really need something from me that I am unable to provide in the classroom (basically, 1-1 dedicated time and effort and energy, tailored to that individual). So, I've approached them (outside the class) and suggested that this is ok with me - just need to set it up (outside the classroom, btw!) It's open to any of my students who bother to contact me and ask.

 

I get how many ppl will say I'm breaching a level of trust with my employer (however, given that this class shouldn't even exist, I'm saying that's a moot point!) Also, as I've indicated, I've had a few different classes - it's only this one group, and only a couple of individuals who have expressed that 'need' for something further, that I've approached.

 

Btw, as I posted above... why??? ("it's unethical", "yeah, but why??" "because it is"... "but why??"   "because it is!!!!" - do you get me now??)

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Chinese teachers in all disciplines already do this. They intentionally omit vital lessons in the official class or they fail to teach the complete lesson.  Then they make the students pay to take an extra class, where they teach what they should have taught in the initial class.  Of course, the students can't pass the subject unless they take this "extra" class.  Yes, it's unethical for the same reasons mentioned above.  

 

While you aren't intentionally under-educating your students in order to recruit them (are you?), you are still undermining your employer's business.  You are something like a double agent, working for and as a competitor to your employer at the same time.

 

I like analogies too.  Let say you were your mate's wing man on bar nights. He chooses the girl he wants to chat up and you're supposed to distract her ugly friends.   Instead, you're whispering into the honey's ear when he goes to the loo, "babe, I can do you better than that guy"....and banging all the girls he picks up.   Not cool.

Shining_brow:

Hmmm... nice analogy :)

 

To continue with it... I will have to alter a bit of it.. my mate lies through his teeth to get what he wants from the girl, and is selling her a stack of BS... I think she deserves better (maybe he has been spiking her drinks! Hey, that's not a bad analogy!!!). I have an interest in her future, and I know it's not a great with with him (perhaps he's already indicated he's not really interested, but what the hell. He's got a few others on the side anyway...) I, OTOH, do have some interest in her...

 

So, I ought not to do anything, and just let him get his way with her??

 

 

BTW, I do totally agree that your first paragraph is way out of order (ie, unethical behaviour). I just don't get that my offer of 1-1 tutoring is...

10 years 46 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

He treats girls so badly, yet you continue to be his friend and wingman?  That's the "unethical" part.

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well, that would be true :)

 

However, that's where analogies become problematic!

 

Also, the group I'm working with also needs to play nice because of other.. 'interests' (ie, OS partners they need to pacify).

 

As I indicated, it's only really this one group that's the problem.

 

I'm not sure how to extend the same analogy to this situation....

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I do think it's wrong to pilfer students. Why?

 

Firstly, you are only at that school, and therefore able to find these students to tutor, because they invited you to teach.

 

Secondly, if they put you in charge of the IELTS course, despite not having any curriculum or anything, I think you could develop the curriculum for them. Go to your boss and explain the problems with the IELTS course, and then develop the curriculum on your own, or find it elsewhere. New Oriental has an IELTS curriculum, but I found several grammatical errors in one such book. Don't be afraid to ask for a raise to develop/set this up. They'll probably be willing to do it. At least my current school is pretty open-minded about a lot of things.

 

Lastly, it could get you in serious trouble in the worst-case scenario. If the student goes to the school and tells them what you told them (and they will - this is China; they might want to save face by suggesting you told them the school sucked), you could be fired and possibly deported for an extended period of time.

Shining_brow:

It seems very much like this will be the first, and last time, it'll be done... As I said, all it is is a money-spinner for the school - not their bread and butter. (to the point they have to drag in other teachers from other schools/departments to teach this lot - AND ONLY THIS LOT!) Using Hugh's analogy above, their main commerce is in Cadillacs, but they've decided to sell off a few VW's on the side (mostly second-hand). They've asked (told, demanded??) that I try to sell them as well...

 

But, yes, you may be right about how much crap it could incur... but TBH, I'm not tragically worried about it :)

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Hulk:

Right, but that's why I used #2.

 

If you could just setup / develop that course, they might pay you extra. See about getting paid extra to set it up so you can attract new students. Think of it like this:

 

The dealer sells cadillacs, but decided to also sell VW's on the side as well (side note: a LOT of car dealers do this in the U.S.). You don't really know anything about VW's, and just sell them the stock model. You don't really put much effort into it because it doesn't sell well, etc.

 

However, your employer wants you to sell them, and perhaps sell better models in the future. It doesn't make much sense, so what do you do? Go and tell the boss about the problems, and ask him or her for extra funds to help set up and develop the VW parking lot.

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

NOT saying anything at all about what you said, other than:

 

There's not even a snowball's chance that they'd pay more...

 

Besides, I'm looking for less hours next year, not more!

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Hulk:

Are you able to break out of the contract without a penalty, like say if you found a replacement teacher? If so, and you can pass a criminal background check, do you want my job? I'm going home really soon. You'll work less than 40 hours per month. Pays pretty well, too.

 

Awesome job... awesome perks... if you can handle screaming kids, lol. You won't have to worry about pilfering students, as you wouldn't be able to. You could find other people.

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

PM - and can NOT handle kids!!! :p

(also, FTR, back home, the police come to me to ask nicely if they can do things regarding criminals.... :D

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Unethical.  I think you know it, as well.  If you want to justify it with TIC it's up to you, obviously.  Now if the student's contract was finished and he/she asked you it might be a different story.  Further, if you need the money to get out of here then do what it takes.

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While I think you are honestly asking this question and sincerely don't get the unethical behaviour, what you fail to do is see yourself from any other point of view than your own.  You are on contract with your employer to do a specific job. Whether your boss is unethical or not is another issue and has nothing to do with this case.  You are obligated to follow the spirit of your contract, unless he specifies something illegal.  Your unethical behaviour begins when you as a "qualified expert", directs your employer's customers to your side business without his authorization.  This is called a conflict of interests.  Stock brokers aren't allowed to advise their clients to buy specific stock they have a personal investment in (at least not without full disclosure).  There is an ethical line that is crossed when you advise your clients to make a decision that you will benefit the most from.  Not to mention that this is not how your employer expected you to honor your contract.

crimochina:

answer of the day. well put

10 years 46 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I don't see a conflict - but then, I have access to other sides of this discussion - such as...

 

Those students have all paid up, and can't get a refund, They also have only a few weeks left, and basically can't (or won't) continue on (mostly cos they're expecting to go OS). The employer/company will lose nothing from this. They also have exams coming up soon...so, basically, they recognise that they need extra help, they recognise that I'm the best person to give it, and that the help they need can't be given in the classroom setting (ie, they need a major improvement to get what they want...).

 

I see my options as - a) do nothing, and watch them crash and burn in their exams, b) offer my help (but not for free!), c).... still wondering!

 

But you're right - I do have a blind-spot when it comes to other views (sometimes)... particularly when someone makes a general assertion and just expects others to go along with it (ie, "It's unethical")

10 years 46 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

watching them crash and burn is your best option, especially since you are an accomplice in the crime, so to speak.  You are part of the reason they are crashing and burning (being the teacher of the class). If you think your employer is being unethical, and not doing business honestly, shouldn't you be looking for another job before you decide to offer "help" to these children?

10 years 46 weeks ago
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crimochina:

why can't it be given in a classroom setting? like i tell my students "make plays (get the job done) not excuses"

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You know it is wrong. That is why you are asking the question hoping someone will say that it is not wrong. You are looking for a reason to justify your plan and you are resentful that few are willing to justify it.

If you were so sure it was not "unethical" you would not be asking, nor would you  be so defensive. You would just take their money and live happily ever after and not give a rat's fanny.

Anyway, do what you want.  We have expressed our opinion. If you are not convinced, well, no one here is going to stop you.

Shining_brow:

Actually, GR, no, I don't know it's 'wrong'... various people try to tell me it is, yet I'm still wondering why....

 

No personal offense to you, but once again, someone is just saying "it's wrong", but not actually able (or willing.... or at least, has) said why!

 

Ethics is an amazing thing - no??

 

And, FTR, that's all I'm after.... A valid reason why!

10 years 46 weeks ago
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crimochina:

i told you why many others have told you why. telling your students that they should pay you to be their private tutor is a conflict of interest and abuse of your position as a teacher. you are using your position as a teacher to line your pockets at the expense of your students. you keep saying you can't help them in a classroom setting. why? you have the freedom to do whatever lesson you want. you have complete and total freedom. why not do more challenging lessons to accommodate the advanced students. give them tips to help them. give them a little bit more attention in class. 

10 years 46 weeks ago
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GuilinRaf:

The mere fact that you are asking the question and trying to justify it demonstrates you know better (it is called "guilty feeling).

Various people have given very good examples. If you cannot see it, (or refuse to see it) then we cannot help you.

Conflict of interest: You are leading students away from your employer, whom you are willing to take his salary yet you undermine him (rightly or wrongly, is irrelevant). You are using the clients that your employer brought, taking advantage of his or her "recruitting" to get clients of your own. If you really feel there are deficiencies, then you should either quit or YOU do what you need to do to improve the class yourself. If some students need extra help, as a teacher of that school employed by the school you need to help them (office hours). The parents already paid the school for a service. You work at that school to povide that service. If there are difficencies in the service, then it is up to you to provide said service without charging the parents extra. You can charge the boss but not the parents, becasue as an "agent" of that school, the school has already been paid. In other words, as an agent of that school, you ARE the school for all intents and purposes, therefor for you to charge, is wrong. You are double billing and the parents are being victimized twice. Nevertheless, do as you see fit Please Note: I am judging the action, I an not judging you. Two different things..

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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change student visa to labourer one is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77