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Q: What is up with all this CFTU talk?
From what I can tell this CFTU seems to be a well intentioned group of foreign teachers with limited resources trying to call out shady agents and scams. However, certain posters on this site have labeled it a scam and a criminal organization. I have seen the Wumao that trolls this site accused of being their agent. So what exactly is the deal with the CFTU? If it is a scam, how does the scam operate? Specific details please.
The CFTU is a fictitious organisation, as far as I'm aware. Whatever else it may be, it is not well-intentioned.
Posts about the CFTU's members and activities are all highly dubious, and can be revealed as such with a few seconds' work.
At the moment the perpetrator of this deception seems to be trying to develop a web presence for his organisation, by listing it on search engines and spamming "information" about the CFTU on forums like this one.
He claims that the CFTU has over 29,000 members - not one of whom has contact information, can be located anywhere, or has ever been met by another human. A dog looked at me kind of funny yesterday, which so far is the most compelling evidence that the CFTU exists. There is also no record of any CFTU meeting, despite claims that it is recognised by government departments and invited to important meetings, and is influential in affecting legislation.
How does the scam operate?
This is just speculation, but given the CFTU's preoccupation with "blacklisting" ESL organisations, perhaps its intention is to engage in some kind of blackmail, once it can be passed off as a real organisation. Or perhaps it is something more sinister targeting foreign teachers. In either case, it's probably not something one would want to be involved in.
I'd suggest looking at some of Riri and Expatlife's recent posts (here and here, for example).
Almost (the forum user in question) appears to have been banned, so perhaps this nonsense will disappear for a month or two.
dongbeiren:
Thanks for the reply. They do pop up a lot when searching for anything related to teaching scams. The organization is also referred to by seemingly legitimate sources. I was imagining a bunch of disillusioned teachers in Beijing rather than scammers but I could be wrong. Isn't it also possible that organizations on the blacklist are trying to destroy their reputation? There's a lot of conflicting info out there but the lack of members is weird. You'd think they could buy fake members. The idea of a union in China is foolish anyway.
Samsara:
Hulk - Is that some kind of CFTU joke?
This is the first time I've commented on a CFTU topic, and I don't wish to be implicated in any of this bullshit. I'm kind of regretting posting a reply already.
This is my only account since echinacities updated about two years ago (before which time I was Rain). Out of curiosity (if it's not a joke) who are you suggesting I am? Please be someone good.
dongbeiren:
A little confused here why hulk would accuse you and then post something agreeing with you. Sam, I'm also regretting my post now that I've been accused of being Almost but thanks for the answer. That was clearer and more succinct than other info I've seen on the topic.
Samsara:
Indeed, my feeling this morning that I probably shouldn't touch this topic has been vindicated.
Hulk:
Not a joke. You, or someone else, sent me a message on another ECC account before... asking me to add you to a certain account somewhere else outside of this site.
Turns out that, it was an off-site account with your name on it (Samsara), but the ECC account name of the person messaging me didn't remotely match yours. It was nearly a year ago.
And you've only been here since March 2013? Edited for clarity.
Samsara:
The only time I've sent you a message was when I commented on a picture of Vicky, some time last year.
I'm feeling a little paranoid now, as the name Samsara probably wouldn't be used by coincidence.
Hulk:
The reason why I'm asking is someone was recently caught arguing with themselves... and it immediately made me think of you, since you seemed to be using two accounts previously, but accidentally linked the shill account to your real game profile.
Was that you? Were you the one arguing with yourself? lol 
Samsara:
This is my only account since the old days, when I posted as Rain.
And whatever happened the other week, I have nothing to do with it.
Hulk:
Ah-ha! Revealed your second account is!
Actually, no, that's not it... that wasn't the person who messaged me. But hey, check PM.
Monsieur:
Again, I know I am in the minority here but I will play devil's advocate once again and ask you directly for a link when you say "He claims they have over 29,000 members" - who said this and where?
You further state there is no evidence of a meeting. I personally know some people who attend them frequently. Since they don't advertise "meetings" what evidence do you expect to find, unless you are a member and get monthly newsletters? I have read two of those newsletters myself, because one of my best friends is a CFTU member. Although I have not gone to their meetings I was invited to some of them. I also went on a bike hike they had last summer to Bada Chu which was one of several outings I was invited to. And if you did a little homework, like I did, you would have found a few of these posts about other events http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/cftu-sponsors-cross-cultural-training-seminar-for-new-china-foreign-expat-teachers/, some of which go back to 2010.
And since you guys already admitted that the CFTU was banned at ECC, how do you expect them to answer any questions? Someone even deleted the half a dozen posts they had managed to put up before they were banned. IMO it is unethical to bash someone and then not even allow them to respond. To be honest, if I had the time, I probably would be a CFTU member but with a new baby in our house that is impossible. I have read both of their websites thoroughly and guess what? They don't sell anything. They don't endorse, promote, or advertise anything. So what is the "scam" you mention, when everything they offer is free? Look at this dear...http://www.bjstuff.com/forum/topics/15-free-anti-scam-weapons-for-expat-china-foreign-teachers-from Even membership is free! So where is the scam? Scams require money and victims. Who and where are the victims? How much money did they lose and how? If I was a victim of a China scam I'd be screaming bloody murder. Yet only a handful of posters, who I suspect to be ESL recruiters at ECC (two of whom also have accounts at thebeijinger.com) are making all the noise, but not providing proof of any wrongdoing. In the West they would get slammed for slander in a New York second.
I agree that unions are illegal in China, but I recall that the CFTU themselves admitted they were not a real union but used that name so teachers could understand that they had a support group. Someone here at ECC deleted that post. Someone else here in another thread about the CFTU said they sent emails to to the CFTU that were never answered. I myslef sent a about a half dozen emails to them over the last three years that I've been in China, and I never failed to get a reply - although sometimes I had to wait 2-5 days since I am not a member. They sent me free copies of China's visa and labor laws, a brochure about Chinese culture, a free subway map, some coupons to the art museum, and a free VPN just for taking a survey last year.
Furthermore, they never spammed me, nor preached religion or politics to me. In short they never asked me for a damn thing. So please tell me how they are scamming me? Did you know that every CFTU staff member is a volunteer? I only met about 30 members who went on that bike hike last summer, but none of them mentioned anything negative about their group.
Btw... when I was thinking about becoming a member, they sent me a membership application and you may want to do the same - and read it. If you join, you are not allowed to to identify yourself as a member nor identify other members. And only the board members are allowed to speak on behalf of the organization in any public media including expat forums. They also explain their reasons for this which intelligent people don't have a problem with.
Although I got a good laugh out of the artwork of the OP, I really do not see anything sinister or even a provable link between the CFTU and Craig Hill. What I do see is hostility towards a former employee/moderator who had some unkind words for the owner of ECC at the China Daily Mail. I don't think his employment with ECC had anything to do with the CFTU and because Craig lives in Australia, he is obviously not a member of the CFTU which only accepts members currently residing in China.
So unless and until you can show me some real scam with real victims who lost money because of the CFTU and can prove it, I would conclude that there are about 5-6 part or full time recruiters on ECC that are users and maybe even used to be teachers, who see the CFTU as a nemesis of sorts. Maybe some of those trashing the CFTU have already been exposed on the CFTU blacklist. Not possible you think? Read here and you will see it has happened before:
http://www.eslwatch.info/china-2/scams-or-schemes-in-china/12147-beware-of-agents-recruiters-masquerading-as-esl-tefl-teachers-at-expat-esl-tefl-forums.html
http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2014/04/12/too-many-agents-recruiters-now-posting-teachers-expat-forums
http://www.eslbase.com/forum/viewtopic/t-3125
http://www.esl-jobs-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6523
I actually posted these comments previously but they were deleted. This time I will take a screen print and send it to the CFTU and ask them to contact ECC. Again, I suggest you "unban" them so they can answer any questions and allegations you may have. What do you have to lose by having an open dialogue gents? People don't have to agree about the reputations of advertisers but without a dialogue, the paranoia and rumors will just continue IMO. I mentiom the reputations of advertisers, because that was the post that apparently got the CFTU banned. If I recall correctly they were asking why certain ESL Recruiters with really bad reputations were allowed to buy advertising at ECC. Instead of having a debate or discussion about it, the plug was pulled so to speak and they were banned. Freedom of speech - don't you just love it?
Up until the CFTU got banned by ECC, I always though this ECC website was owned by foreigners. But that censorship thing made me realize this site is probably owned by Chinese after all - just like Craig Hill said.
expatlife26:
Nice try Monsieur but anyone who knows anything about the CFTU knows that it is ILLEGAL for most CFTU members below the 4th Circle to post online EXCEPT IN RECRUITMENT OR EVANGELISM. YOU ARE NOT 4TH CIRCLE AND THAT MEANS YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE LEADER.
Also Monsieur pretends to be a member of the CFTU which is clever but an obvious ruse. Why? Because anyone who sends for a CFTU membership will see in paragraph 5 that:
"No member other than the Adminstrator shall make any public comments on behalf of the organization in any media including online forums, televsion, or news print media. Doing so can result in immediate expulsion. {Please read the membership "Preface" to understand why we require this rule}"
So that setlles it. You are either a liar or a member of the False CFTU.
expatlife26:
http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2014/11/19/can-we-change-tone-discussion-china-foreign-teachers-union-sick-bash-trash-expatsThe only people authorized to speak for the CFTU are thought leaders and managers who post Great Facts in support of The Leader.
You want proof the REAL CFTU NOT THE FALSE CFTU exists? How about some Great Forum posts? Who would post this stuff if it wasn't a real organization DEVOTED TO THE LEADER!?!?!?!?!
So what do you say for yourself? DO YOU LOVE THE LEADER OR ARE YOU A RECRUITER-HACKER??
It's some BS organization that has zero clout. Avoid them like the plague.
dongbeiren:
Any org claiming to be a union in China is obviously bs. I'm just confused by the harsh indictments that they're doing something criminal when there seem to be few hard facts. As expat said, the idea of a database of shady operators is a worthy goal. If it is a scam, they've done a good job getting their name out. I just would like to see more hard evidence that they're doing something nefarious before jumping to conclusions.
I guess he has found a new account.
dongbeiren:
Ugh I regret posting this question now because I sort of expected someone would say that, come on man it's an innocent enough question about a topic that gets thrown around a lot on this forum and I was just confused about it.
Englteachted:
How on earth could anyone get the idea that they are a 'group of teachers who are well intentioned'.
If I told you, '"I could help you get out of your contract if you give my lawyer 10k" and you knew that you could go to SAFEA for free if the school violated the contract or that you could simply use the escape clause and pay the same amount of money to the school and peacefully negotiate an end to the contract. Would you think of me as well intentioned?
dongbeiren:
No, I wouldn't and if they do things like that they're obviously scum. As I tried to make clear, I know almost nothing about them. So, if you're aware of them doing that it sounds like they're getting kickbacks from shady lawyers. In fact, suggesting that a lawyer could help any expat in a contract dispute would be ludicrous. But thanks for answering my question.
expatlife26:
Youre wrong if you think a lawyer cant help in a contract dispute. Of course they can.
expatlife26:
And remember there is no THEM, its one guy or maybe a guy and a partner.
icnif77:
Agree with expat!
The thingy here wasn't 'lawyer can't help in Contract dispute'. I saw it as 'STFU was/is promoting/pushing their/his lawyer.
Englteachted:
I didn't say a lawyer can't help. But voiding a contract is something you can do yourself easily and for less money. Contracts all have an out clause. If they violated they contract, contact SAFEA and you can get out of the contract without penalty. A lawyer is not worth it in those situations. But if you want to recoup money, then you definitely should get a lawyer.
dongbeiren:
Expat, I suppose it would depend on the nature of the dispute and the employer. English training center doesn't pay out a teacher's last month's salary or bonus, boss of center is well connected, teacher has limited funds and connections and a soon to expire visa then no, I don't believe a lawyer could help.
icnif77:
'recoup money'? If salary wasn't paid, SAFEA will help with that.
If you consider get 'penalty money because of the Contract violation' then Chinese lawyer is needed.
@dong: SAFEA helped me twice to retreat last pay and more. Once at Helen's dispute in Hangzhou (me on F visa), and other time with 'dispute' at Training centre in Dalian. I posted here both times, I think.
as you mentioned, unions in china are strictly prohibited, and membership of one carries prison time. any teacher who tries to get help with an employment conflict from a UNION will be seen as fair game. chinese will have a conditioned response to the word union, and if government or employer hears of a foreigner attempting to corrupt the fabric of Perfect Harmonyland, the scammer will have their undivided attention. perhaps a reward is expected from the employer. perhaps that employer will be blackmailed for silence, or evidence of the attempted union membership will be sent to police. perhaps the Party pays for info on these "sinister" activities. perhaps all of the above. and the unsuspecting teacher wont know what happened to them, or who caused him/her to be separated from their life in china, their students, their partner, and perhaps even children.
these kind of activities are very harmful to people, so it should be supported when they are exposed. i've been told it's some scammer in the USA, but i cant shake the feeling that it's a Mainlander. locals only seem to get creative when theres some deception that stands to hurt a lot of people, while moderately benefiting just one selfish person. being chinese also makes it easier to blackmail local bosses and inform police and government.
i have a feeling that the person behind Almost, the CFTU, and all those other handles and websites has Chinese characteristics. perhaps a disgruntled chinese immigrant in the states getting his petty little revenge for lost face. maybe his highschool sweethart married a laowai, so the coward gets his back on teachers in a vulnerable position. i hope he crosses a line one day, and the FEDs make him crap his overused bathrobe when they come for him.
dongbeiren:
Now that is an interesting theory, I was imagining a bunch of morons who thought up the idea of a union after a few beers but the way you put it I could see how ensnaring and blackmailing a naive teacher into a fake union could be a viable scam.
This is the problem. Who are they? What are they? If they were a credible organisation, things wouldn't appear to be all cloak and dagger all the time.
I'm not a teacher, so it doesn't affect me in the slightest. I have no vendetta against them. But it just seems so shady, and there are no names or faces to put with the organisation. Add to that all the spamming they do and that's enough to make me think it's not quite right.
CFTU is generally used when people are to shy to use LBGT. The two are interchangeable.
CFTU uses various, simultaneous forum personas and web bloggers to troll for scam bait. He (yes, one) has run this for at least a year.
In forums, like here, they (he) run different topics. One poster will ask questions about an unclear and well known aspect of expat employment in China - ie the need for a TESOL certificate. But this troll wants clear proof of said requirement, a LAW, but of course there is none. (TIC) He believes this gives him credibility. He ends up posting strings of the links he has created, and there are many.
After the first troll is banned, the 'other' forum troll asks "what's up with the STFU?", with a topic that admits it seems dishonest or suspect, but asks for specific proof against the STFU. He asks because he knows it's time consuming to make the case against, and it's a pain in the azz. He will bullshit his way out of it, then later create a new set of screen names for all expat teacher forums and start again.
So, Mr. STFU, STFU.
dongbeiren:
Well seems I'm being accused again. Actually I think the existence of this thread more clearly explains the complaints against this organization than past threads. Obviously a lot of the regulars on this forum know a lot about this topic while newbies like me get confused when people bring it up again and again. So I hope you can understand why someone (me) without ulterior motives wanted some clear info on this topic. So thanks for the info even if you think I'm a troll.
Englteachted:
Dongbei. Please understand this every time one account gets exposed another account pops up asking what up with the Cftu they seem alright.
icnif77:
It looks, you're the only one who received 'our' email about 'title change'
dongbeiren:
@Engl again I know nothing about them or him so using this thread seems like a good chance to make your case rather than jump down my throat, I'm not sure how anything I've said could help this organization seeing as the regs on this forum seem to be onto them or him or whatever. As for starting the thread, well it is for q and a and I had a q.
the only way a website for the benefit of teachers would work
no unions in china, so the site would have to be in another country with vpn access, china would definitely block the site.
all documents related to a work event with signatures and full disclosure would need to be posted, meaning the foreigner would need to be safely out of the country already or all hell would be brought down on them. rebuttles and explanations posted for both sides of the dispute, no money from schools or teachers for an unbiased view of the facts.
the last item, the most important item, someone who has more time than money already wealthy with a drive and motivation to make the site work with no appreciation for the endeavor whatsoever,
so finally, fairy tales are for children.
I tried to explain why I thought that guy was so full of shit in the last post. I think hes a criminal because he was linked to a past scam called the China Trade Commission that looked identical. Which was linked to yet another scam and so forth. It made grandiose claims backed up by nothing but sketchy forum posts. I said 100 times if ONE real person stepped forward I take it all back. Nothimg just personal attacks. I even explained all his techniques of deflecting criticism. Whatever this guy really is , his behavior is certainly right outta the scammer playbook.
I can't stand the high level paranoia that is very characteristic of a few uneasy forum members here. It's not productive in any way to finger point "HE"S a CHINESE!!" or "HE's _____!" Yet there's always a poster or two (usually the same culprits) that resort to this type of behavior. I bet you in real life they're super uneasy and paranoid about anything normal that just happens to arouse their attention.
It's my opinion that the real questionable types will naturally arouse the eventual suspicion from the majority regulars here ... just like Almost and his other accounts. There's no need to jump on a guy when he's relatively new. Only time can let you see who they are, what they think, and if they are fairly consistent or not. Once a pattern is established over time, only then it can be easy to determine if they're copy cat accounts or not.
Just stick out the accusations and they'll disappear if you're genuine, because unfortunately you can't change the opinions of (a few) paranoid users we have here.
dongbeiren:
I appreciate that sentiment, it's kind of frustrating getting the witch trial treatment haha
I was actually curious too about this "organization" when I saw it appearing over and over again with an increasing amount of irritation. But after seeing the same hilarious Pinocchio style advertisement infomercial type posts over and over, with the pathetic reasoning skills in the face of what were reasonable inquiries, I figured it's an obvious scam. To summarize the obvious, it's a BS scam and not a good idea to associate yourself with anything claiming to be a union over here.
by chinese law, any club, even a chess club that has a meeting with more than 30 members in attendance, must have a party official present at the meeting, paranoid is written in the laws of china, although seldom actually enforced.
This whole thing is funny.
Unions are allowed in China by the way. We have a union at the company where I work. It's a Government thing. They came in and set it up, I don't think management had much say in the matter.
Anyway, I have been reading up on this CFTU stuff, not intentionally at first, but my interest was aroused by the sheer number of references to them in various Chinese forums.
I enjoy reading forums, so I often do searches for new ones. I might try "Dalian expats", or "Shanghai forums", and I often get a hit that will give a good read for an hour or two.
But I do keep coming across posters with tales of woe of the ESL industry who then often include a link to the CFTU.
The latest story is about a sting operation where the Police are pretending to be ESL agents to capture illegal teachers and blackmail them into becoming informers.
The threads normally all go the same way. The OP posts the story, other posters call BS, someone else comes along to claim his room mate is in jail because of this sting, CFTU then step in to say they are the future etc. We have all seen them.
I read a story last night about all posters on EChinaCities with high post counts are devious employment agents. I came across an article a few weeks ago where one of my posts had been quoted, implying that I was a paid poster.
What nonsense. I am not even a teacher, never have been, nor will I ever be!
Now, I could see why an agent would post on forums. Maybe to befriend someone in need, then pm them with a job offer. But I don't think there would be rich pickings on this site, seeing as how most regular posters have spent some time here and know the system.
What do I think of the CFTU? Well, their main thing seems to be these black and white lists. I know what I think, but to be honest I don't want to say here.
Yup there are a lot of ESL scams going on in China, but a lot of these horror stories just don't add up. And lets face it, most of us who live in China are a bit odd, we have to be to live here. And we all know people who are odder, who complain at the slightest thing.
I have seen lots of posts on here from potential ESL teachers asking questions about pay etc, and by and large all the answers are helpful. I would say there is loads of information on here to help potential teachers find decent jobs and avoid the scams. Teachers are supposed to be smart after all.
Anyway, I only really commented on this because I have a mild objection to one of my posts on here being quoted on another website. I need to have a look see if I can find it again.
Hotwater:
You claim never to have been a teacher yet only recently was recalling your time teaching bar staff about the joys of whiskey. I guess that doesn't count as you were only paid in beer?
ScotsAlan:
Ha ha. Of course. I was the best paid teacher in the country....for one hour only 
.
Took me ages to drink my wages tho 
expatlife26:
I think it's just for search engine stuff...all these links drives up their page ranking.
To what end it anybody's guess...
Yeah nobody on the ground here takes it seriously, but it could have meaning to the kid/lad in the US/Scotland...he doesn't know it's completely bonkers
might think its a legit thing a bunch of recruiters are trying to smear...that part of the story is perfectly plausible...it's just that the CFTU as we know it isn't real.
ScotsAlan:
Some of the linked articles are funny because they actually list the users who have had strange agendas on here and are no longer posting. And the writing style in the comments is exactly the same as in the article. A lot of the linked sites are on dangerous ground, what with the aligations being made. Well, when I say linked sites I mean the cloned diy wordpress links.
expatlife26:
what I find the most bizarre is that traveller/craig hill whatever used to have arguments with CFTU guy...both of them calling each other frauds etc.
Now CFTU guy cites traveller/craig hill as a credible source.
Swirl:
I think there are quite a few job agents posting at EChinacities disguised as teachers who may have been exposed by the CFTU and therefor have an ax to grind. Here is just some of what I have found:
http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/cftu-sponsors-cross-cultural-training-seminar-for-new-china-foreign-expat-teachers/
http://www.thebeijinger.com/events/2014/may/cftu-cross-cultural-training-seminar-new-expat-foreign-teachers-free
http://www.bjstuff.com/profiles/blogs/cftu-advises-how-to-break-your-contract-resign-from-a-bad-or
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org/2012/12/china-foreign-teachers-union-posts-esl.html
http://www.esl-jobs-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6828
http://www.bjstuff.com/profiles/blogs/cftu-dyi-guide-how-to-check-out-a-china-foreign-teacher-job-1
http://www.expat-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=437213
http://www.esl-jobs-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6322
http://www.bjstuff.com/forum/topics/15-free-anti-scam-weapons-for-expat-china-foreign-teachers-from
http://www.bjstuff.com/profiles/blogs/your-help-needed-to-update-the-2015-cftu-china-esl-tefl-school
http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/china-foreign-teachers-union-freebie-fun-day/
http://www.eslbase.com/forum/viewtopic/t-3178
http://eslwatch.info/forum/china/93-what-is-the-best-free-way-to-find-decent-and-safe-jobs-in-china-as-a-foreign-teacher.html
http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2014/02/07/free-legal-guide-english-china-expat-foreign-teachers
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.com/2015/01/free-cftu-guidebook-china-labor.html
