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Sign up with Google Sign up with FacebookQ: What's up with Chinese people refusing to correctly pronounce the proper names in English?
Why do they have to stick to those phonic pronunciations that they use in Chinese, cities for e.g., Lundun instead of London, Bolin instead or Berlin or Bali instead of Paris, even when their English is almost fluent they still can't get how to pronounce the proper names, it's not that complicated.
For the same reason people in Europe said Peking instead of Beijing, for like, 100 years ?
I agree it's annoying, it makes some conversations very hard. Habits are hard to fight, and doubly, triply so in China because of the whole face-preservation, denial of personal errors, etc. My parents can't pronounce most Chinese cities names properly, despite repeated efforts on my side. My parents are aware of that, but they are somehow persuaded they can't help it. They can, if only they started to try. Same thing here, I guess.
Eorthisio:
You didn't get it, I don't blame them for using the Chinese names/pronunciations when they speak Chinese, but when they speak English it's really bothering. And they tell you "It's not Berlin but Bolin" as if they knew better.
DrMonkey:
Ok, good point, I should have read more carefully. Talking geography in China is immensely frustrating, independently from the language you use.
For the same reason people in Europe said Peking instead of Beijing, for like, 100 years ?
I agree it's annoying, it makes some conversations very hard. Habits are hard to fight, and doubly, triply so in China because of the whole face-preservation, denial of personal errors, etc. My parents can't pronounce most Chinese cities names properly, despite repeated efforts on my side. My parents are aware of that, but they are somehow persuaded they can't help it. They can, if only they started to try. Same thing here, I guess.
Eorthisio:
You didn't get it, I don't blame them for using the Chinese names/pronunciations when they speak Chinese, but when they speak English it's really bothering. And they tell you "It's not Berlin but Bolin" as if they knew better.
DrMonkey:
Ok, good point, I should have read more carefully. Talking geography in China is immensely frustrating, independently from the language you use.
I couldnt care less about how they pronounce cities. I just wish they would get my name right!!! Mike! It isnt hard! I am officially Mike- Ah . My In-laws can barely speak Mandarin so English is out of the question but they at least try. Instead of Mike they try Michael or for them Mike-oh. Close enough
nzteacher80:
Yeah they do that. It's because Chinese words almost always end in a soft vowel sound rather than the hard consonant sound that is common in English. The first English class I saw here was a Chinese teacher screaming "Geeftar!" at a bunch of kids. It was a Christmas lesson and she was trying to say gift.
Roma?
Napoli?
Moskva?
Van Gogh?
I'm not seeing this as the problem you are...
What is the context for this? Like Drmonkey said, we say names of things suited to our language style. But when Chinese are speaking English, then I think it's a problem.
It's mostly an issue of laziness. There are higher value words ( often used vocabulary) to learn in foreign languages and there are lower value words ( things used less often). To the general language learner, the bulk of the material to be learned is frightening. You obviously can't do everything at once, so there's always going to be errors somewhere. I understand why most people choose to leave the names of people and places last. Because those are the least likely items in your vocabulary to be used! I've learned chinese for so long yet on the top of my head I don't know how to say Persia. I don't know how to say Muenchen, or Madrid. If I saw them in an airport, fine. But otherwise, I have no reason to look these up. I think the case for most people is that they are busy learning more common things and aren't concerned with proper nouns so much, especially in the case of the city names which there's such a low use. There's too many of them and your average chinese person isn't too interested in learning them, sort of like how I'm not interested in learning how to say those in Chinese.
Shining_brow:
I will disagree with you in one respect.
When it comes to learning English in this country, particularly at the university level (CET and TEM), there's a bunch of words that they are expected to know. Unfortunately, this list was put together by non-native English speakers, and thus, they are mostly words that, while common, aren't actually used as often as the stuff we do normally use on a daily basis.
Perfect example - I looked over the shoulder of one of my students who had a book full of essays and the vocabulary that they needed to know and understand. Included was the word 'plasma'... as. in the clear fluid in your blood. Please, tell me, when was the last time you used that word in conversation???
This, apparently, was more important than knowing the word 'overcast' or 'humid'- daily topics.
The focus is on 'academic' English - not 'real' English. Hence, they can write long(-ish) essays, but can't have a simple conversation.
jetfire9000:
I'm not a teacher so I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of what kind of english that chinese learn in this system. Maybe the book you looked at was simply targeting vocabulary that is beyond the level of words such a humid. Perhaps that word was on a different level of test they studied long ago and hence forgot. Chinese people can't have conversations simply because ( get ready for it) there's too many people in a single classroom. Yeah, try having a dialogue with thirty students. My language classes only ever had a maximum of 10 students. And I doubt any teacher here would take the time to make a speaking portion test of an exam and do one on one with each of their students. Chinese teachers of English themselves only strive for the lowest of expectations put on them...
it's akin to Pidgin English. back in the colonial era, some arrogant, cultural supremacist, hearing impaired Englishmen deliberately misheard the term "kuai" (quick) and called it "chop". hence the terms chopsticks and chop-chop. if you make kuai into chop, you are making your lack of effort/willingness to learn another language abundantly clear. China, in its own time-honoured tradition, is simply copying colonial era arrogance to make their own cultural superiority clear. it comes across as insecure to us, but Chinese are deluded into believing this period of economic growth for China is comparable to expansionist imperialism. even sadder are the foreigners who buy into it: "China will be the new superpower" - as if the arrogant display served to convince them that China must be important.
gouxiong:
Quite interesting about 'chop-sticks' . Till now I fought it's derived from the verb chop and the noun stick ...
And I found it quite rational as 筷子 (kuaizi in Mandarin but I assume more appropriate would be Cantonese pronunciation as the British entered China via South China) really are chopped sticks.
I also till now believed that Pidgin English came into existence as simplified version of 'common language' because apparently English is very difficult language to learn for Chinese and Chinese is quite clearly very difficult language to learn for English speaking people.
However I agree with you on many people arrogance - unfortunately this is quite common phenomenon around the world, including China.
But I am not sure it's shown by having own pronunciation for geographical places. German language has own names of many foreign cities and many Slavic languages have that too. Is that arrogant? I do not think so. It's aimed at people who do not speak foreign languages (as majority of people in majority of countries does not) and it's not meant as disrespect towards these places.
If the people for the whole life then hear and use certain name for certain city so it's quite hard to change it.
But as long as all involved know what place is meant so I do not see any problem. Language is a communication tool.
Most of the time they will listen to the correction, if not use the native speaker card.
I hate when Chinese people try to correct my English with their horrible, broken English. I want to punch them in the nose.
Hal195:
This has never happened to me! That's so weird, why would they do that?
MissA:
It happens; MrA rolls his Rs and a couple of times the Chinese teachers tried to 'correct' him. I always managed to step in before the blood splattered too far but it was a close run thing on a few occasions...
MissA:
It happens; MrA rolls his Rs and a couple of times the Chinese teachers tried to 'correct' him. I always managed to step in before the blood splattered too far but it was a close run thing on a few occasions...
Hulk:
Lol, MissA. It is annoying. I've just seen too many British comedies, so it's easy to insult them in the most graceful way possible.
coineineagh:
How about when they combine La-di-da-da London English's posh "thi(r)teen" with an inaudible R, with a Redneck "twen(t)y", inaubible T. And then insist using both is preferable to my neutral pronunciation. I always go: "Remain calm, bite your tongue, count to ten slowly." Is it some sort of hobby for English learners to 'collect-all-accents' as trophies??
Hulk:
I just tell them I have no idea what they're saying, and ask them to write it down, then I correct them.
Don't know, my son is not allowed to use "Chinese name" of any foreign brand, car, cloth outlet, people names... Always let him use original name.
Berlin in mandarin is"Bolin" ,London is "lundun" so..
For those cities I have been to or talk about regularly I can pronounce correctly,oh oh i 've forgotten the English word for "falankefu" i must enlarge my vocabulary!
Don't people from Foreignerland often mispronounce Chinese city names incorrectly?
What's the big deal as long as everyone in the conversation knows where they are talking about?
When was the last time you heard someone call Paris, Par-ee? Even other western english speaking people often get the name of my hometown's pronunciation wrong.
Hulk:
I always mispronounce Chinese city names incorrectly, 'cause I know pinyin.
RandallFlagg:
"When was the last time you heard someone call Paris, Par-ee?" That's because they are saying it in English, not French. You are missing the point.
I guess most people aren't doing it to be assholes- they probably just don't know the correct name- or what is in fact, the English version of the name.
If someone tries to correct your english, that's really silly, but it's just them being arrogant- I have met plenty of arrogant expats who do this to me- i'm not Chinese, but I've had my Chinese corrected in front of Chinese people, only for the Chinese people to agree with me.
It's annoying, but nothing to lose sleep over. They're just insecure
Often their Chinese English teachers can barely speak English. Their skills are so poor in some cases that they only speak Chinese in their English class. Once someone tried to say my pronunciation was wrong I informed her that it's my native language and her Chinese teacher is wrong.
RachelDiD:
I love that. I have a British colleague who is.always being told how to pronounce 'Cambridge.' And you'd think that I would have learned the name of my native country by now. It is 'America.'
coineineagh:
English is a 'lazy' language where lots of vowel sounds can be replaced with a Schwa. You can say America starting and ending with clear 'ah' sounds, or just lazily go 'uh'meric'uh'. Locals learn rigidly through the rote system, and want there to be only one possible correct pronunciation. A good teacher will try to explain this, but it isn't easy. You'll also have a hard time explaining why people will laugh at you if you order a "hamb(uh)g(uh)" in a New York MacD's, despite it being the correct London dictionary pronunciation.
RandallFlagg:
I once helped a Chinese colleague by looking over her Masters thesis. She was intending to get a higher degree in English in a nearby city. This was despite the fact that she could barely speak any English at all and required one of her female colleagues to translate everything she wanted to say to me. The levels of incompetence here are appalling.
Eorthisio:
Randall -> Yep, this is what happen when everyone get passed in the education system and when people get their jobs thanks to their guanxi and not based on their skills, recommendation from previous employers or experience. None of them is able to do their job the way it should be done.
In fact Chinese employees in most companies are so insecure about their skills and know how inefficient they are that they will try to put down the foreign employees if the last are anything more than idiots. The Chinese staff will often feel threatened by an efficient, optimistic, qualified and skilled foreign employee.
I have often heard "The foreigner earns more money, it's so unfair", yep but the foreigner (aka. me) can do in 15 minutes alone what takes you 5 hours with 2 other employees to do, and yet the final result will be better when made by the foreigner. The foreigner doesn't spend half of his office hours on QQ or Taobao, even though his work load is quickly done he still finds something to do that's profitable for the company.
I kind of laugh it off since my name is so easy... Tim. They always say Jim. So do foreigners.
Some sounds are just hard for a foreign tongue no matter how hard you train it.
My daughter can't say my name. She shouts "AAALAAAWIIN"
No problem. I have her Chinese name written on a bit of paper in the back of my wallet. And after almost 3 years I can still barely pronounce it .
It does not matter. Language is supposed to evolve.
Hulk:
Here's why I downvoted you: you think it doesn't matter what your daughter can't pronounce your name, because language is supposed to evolve.
That's a huge disservice to her. Who the fuck's gonna understand her when/if she goes abroad?
ScotsAlan:
Her first language is Cantonese. So, I have no problem with her second language (English) being less than perfect.
The people from home who have never been anywhere write a language on facebook that I can barely comprehend. Language evolves.
And that's good. I was never good at Queens English myself, being a Scot and all that .
Hey..... she is doing ok as a 3 year old. Her Cantonese is better than mine will ever be .
Hulk:
Wait, what? Three year old?
Damn you. I thought she was like 16 or something.
Sorry for the downvote then.