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Posts: 3494

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Q: What's the point of decreeing everyone must learn English? What do they want?

Thirty odd years of compulsory English language learning in Chinese schools.

The result of this is that virtually nobody can speak English.  (The ones who can have basically taught themselves.)

Chinese English language teachers conduct their classes in Chinese.  When they do use English it is unintelligible.

There's no English readily available for the people to access.  Newspapers are incredibly difficult to locate (outside of 1st Tier cities),  there's no English tv that anybody wants to watch.  Where I live there's no English to be seen anywhere.

Are they serious about teaching English?

Why are they kidding themselves about this?  If they were fair dinkum, if they really wanted the population to be able to speak English, then there'd be English available everywhere.

I'm not saying Chinese people should be learning English...the Chinese Gov't are.  But they are offering no help whatsoever in order to facilitate this.  It's a compulsory subject, not an option.  The people WILL learn and the gov't WILL NOT offer any assistance at all.

So, it's a farce.  But what is the point of this farce?

What do they want?

 

 

9 years 51 weeks ago in  Teaching & Learning - China

 
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Posts: 916

Shifu

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English is promoted as a subject students need to pass in order to go to an overseas uni or to get into a local uni, same as Maths. You don't see Math everywhere do you? Or Physics, Chemistry and Economics for that matter. The idea of getting an education in China is not about spoken English or whatever language but getting that degree so that the student is guaranteed (almost) a better life thereafter. If you noticed, after class your students prefer to chat in their own dialect rather than Mandarin or English. You won't find them talking about Math or any other subject for that matter. The government does not stress the need to learn another language so that when students go on into the job market, they can communicate with the outside world in English. In my past 2 years working in China, I communicated with Chinese businesses in English. I've lost count on how many times I scratched my head wondering what they were talking about. And these are graduates. Until and unless they recognize that English is the lingua franca globally, it will always remain as a subject they need to pass in order to go to a uni. 

royceH:

So that would make it a farce, no?

9 years 51 weeks ago
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louischuahm:

The trouble with the education system is that it treats English on the same level as any other subject. From our viewpoint, I suppose it's a farce but from theirs, it's just a subject they need to pass to get to the next level. Where I come from, we have 4 national languages and most of use can speak at least 3 of them. The one we can't speak is Tamil. If students here are not exposed to the outside world, they will never have the opportunity to use English. With the censorship of English websites across the country and lack of English programs on the telly, it's no wonder people here can't pick it up. For us, we can only help them pass (yes, it's sad). Imagine me having to teach economics with their English capability! 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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9 years 51 weeks ago
 
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English language is the 2nd official language in China!

louischuahm:

That's what they say but how often do you see Chinese, any Chinese talking in English? Exactly! Never! So whatever  2nd language they promote is useless. 

If the government suddenly says "Learn English so you can communicate with the world!" then perhaps you'd get more English training schools sprouting up from nowhere. And the lack of English teachers will exacerbate the already festering situation. However, it will create an urgency for people to master the language because the government said so.

9 years 51 weeks ago
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icnif77:

I read 'Royce's' title, and then I replied!

 

Yes, I agree, English in China looks like 'wish of our leader', but it's not real thing. Chinese could learn from Europeans, where almost every EU resident speaks and understands 3 languages through teli and cinema, broadband and newspapers.

 

Chinese Gov. wants to do it at slower pace, me thinks! We must be aware of longevity of Wall exclusion in China!

 

On the English teaching field in the Schools, would be wiser to teach English Chinese teachers first, over students, IMHO. 

But Chinese teachers at my present School wouldn't accept that, because of 'face', me thinks! I introduced them Focus English Conversation, but none asked me any Q, so I guess they all just skipped my suggestion.

I made an easy plan 'how to...' teach English if you don't speak English, but School cut me off, before I could show them my ideas!

Principal made every Chinese teacher to be present in my classes, but goal was 'copy', not 'learn'!

9 years 51 weeks ago
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royceH:

Sometimes there's substance to be had in them thar comments which follow the question.

Keep your gun holstered for a tick longer, old cock.

 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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icnif77:

It won't work this way at louis, IMO! They should push with English teli, radio and broadband. Signs  on the buildings in Tianjin city are are bi-Chinese, English below. Highway Beijing - Quinhundao traffic signs are bi, too. Chinese Gov. must force English to regular Chinese mind through public space: teli, radio, broadband, all public signs in Chinese must have English following. 

How would you make Chinese understand Black or Brown color people are same people as Yellow or White or 'Green' (they're coming! I met them! I'm not mad!)

 

Make Black people broadcast on the teli. Make more Black people comfortable in China! 

Chinese Gov. must make Chinese people adjust to the Black people, not opposite as trend is today!

 

Back to Caol Ila! I run out of ice! I'll might post some more!

9 years 51 weeks ago
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icnif77:

@Royce: sometimes I think problem is in the size of my upper head! Thought needs few ' to reach other point, and get lost in the meantime. It was mean time! Is that same meaning in English? 1 word or 2 two words O2. I really need help. I can't stop laughing. I'll try with electric shock. Is electricity in China as powerful as in EU ...where's question mark on keyboard. I can just see 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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sorrel:

growing up, foreign language TV and movies were freely available so foreign languages are normalised within the country.

here, there is strict censorship of all foreign language material. 

Control language and you control thought.

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Posts: 58

Governor

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Part of it is the Chinese approach to education, where exams rather than learning is the main goal. So English and all other subjects are taught in a way so that students can pass the next exam (not including guanxi and cheating bullshit). Those who are not interested, or have no use for English will very quickly forget what little they've learned. Those who are interested, curious or need to use English will always find a way to learn more.

 

I guess the way people learn English isn't really conductive to usage in real world situations, and then it really becomes "just another subject" which is quickly forgotten. It's the same when I learned French as my 3rd language back home, I had no interest in it, I didn't care and I didn't see much use for it, especially the way it was taught. So I put in the minimal effort to get a passing grade and I quickly forgot what little I actually learned.

icnif77:

I agree! Any foreign language you learn, you must be able to use it! If there's no need for that, you'll abandon it soon.

It is very easy to speak 3 languages in EU, because every state in EU speaks different language! 28 EU states = 28 different languages. English is still mayor foreign language, but if you live in N. Italy, you can easy learn German or French, because both countries are some 300 miles away, and broadband supports you in that, i.e. you can listen foreign language just by switching teli channel.

I always explain that to my Chinese students, when Q: 'Where do you come from?'. 

However, 'problem' in China is 'we Chinese' and nobody else! Till Xi won't promote 'EU set-up', there will be no visible progress in China considering '2nd official language is English!'

9 years 51 weeks ago
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viango:

When I visited few exhibitions with my girlfriend where there are people from all over the world. I was always saying to her, these people speak French, they are from France, same for Italian, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese, Hindi, Arabic, Turkish, etc.

 

She was extremely surprised that I can recognize so many languages, she never heard any of them from songs, TV or anything else, so for her and rest of Chinese people there is Chinese, English and others group.

9 years 51 weeks ago
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royceH:

Wow, Viango...yoo de man!  I can sometimes distinguish within UK...US and Canada are the same.  Oh, Kiwi is identifiable.  But European stuff....forget about it!

 

 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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9 years 51 weeks ago
 
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recently i was in contact with a former colleague in my old Uni down south in the 'wild west'.

All of their students are preparing for IELTS and 'hope' to attend foreign universities, so the FT's are preparing them for the different teaching style that they will expect to encounter, as well as working on their english.

English is a key part of the course, so there is a certain minimum expectation on their level of english. 

The reality, as everyone knows, is very different.

 

barely any of the students can speak English due to the fact that the emphasis up till then is on passing the exam rather than actually using the language in a functional way.

Chinese teachers, for the most part, spend their time reciting english while the students write everything down. 

 

my friend told me the staff advised him and the other FT's that if the students didn't attend class it was because they were 'bad teachers' and their classes were boring.

during my time there, i was told to 'teach like a Chinese teacher'. 

anyone who has ever learnt another language knows the importance of speaking and practicing the language, whereas this aspect is lost on Chinese teachers

 

Yet, the government here proudly announces the fact that all students are learning English. I compare this to Europe, where speaking a second language is the norm, and is the international language of business.

 

i don't think they are serious here about teaching english to produce english speakers.

just students who can pass exams

royceH:

Yeah, just focus everything onto the passing of an exam...to no end other than passing an exam. 
That sounds like a pretty retarded system to me!

So that begs the question...Is Chinese education retarded?

 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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Robk:

@royce - Yes, it is. Absolutely, that's why they all want their kids to study abroad. 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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icnif77:

The Q isn't 'is it retarded'! The problem in China is 'Why you can't admit, you are f. wrong? me thinks!

 

If I'm keep telling Native or Not-native, you're wrong (because of my face), something is wrong in your head.

When I ask the same Q Chinese (opposite way): 'How would you feel, if I would tell you your Chinese teaching is wrong? I am European with vast  knowledge of Chines, and you, Chinese are wrong?

 

OOOh, my 'face' hurts!

 

I might be drunk already!Cao Ila is 'no surrender' cshotch. I heard, Irish rarely say 'Good morning'. They use 'no surrender' instead! LO 'no O2 anymore…..

9 years 51 weeks ago
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The problem is clearly a combination of a really poor education system, the gubberment, and a general culture of arrogance (my/our way is the best. Of course being English teachers we all want them to speak English, but this country is so messed up that nearly 400,000,000 can’t even proficiently speak Mandarin (Putonghua ).

Between an education system based on test, classrooms with 60 + students and a gubberment. that has controlled people’s movement for a really long time they haven’t even managed to learn their own language.

http://news.yahoo.com/china-says-400-million-cant-speak-national-languag...

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Promoting English is a soft power move to inspire hope to the poor suckers that they will be able to travel the world, get a fancy education etc. People don't actually need a usable English to achieve the soft power goal. 

 

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9 years 51 weeks ago
 
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My opinion is much different.

 

Lets first say that China is a big country, divided into provinces. As much as I know, 1st tier cities and all cities in provinces Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Guangdong are more rich than rest of the China. In mentioned provinces I saw many times bi lingual food menu, KFC workers which speak English (which is not some job that requires some high qualifications), buying a ticket at train stations in Hangzhou, Wuxi I always finish in English without any problems. When I went to police station to ask around about work visa for first time, police officer talked with me in clear American accent, if I was unable to see his face I would say some American guy talked with me.

 

Before I came to live in China I met many Chinese people in exhibitions while doing business with them and I needed 6-12 months to adapt to their English so we can communicate without problems.

 

CONCLUSION: China have many people that speak English fluently, but depends on their family income. If they have money to send their child to private school or to finish University abroad.

 

Learning English in elementary schools is not actually a guarantee for success. Why? Because teachers that teach English now didn't have opportunity to learn it enough while they were in primary school and high school.

 

Government put English in primary schools as a subject, if they wanted to neglect English they would start teaching it from high school.

 

Other thing is quality of Chinese teachers. Government could easily fix this with specialized educational institution where teachers must finish final exam in front of highly qualified native speaking professor.

 

Because GOV don't know or don't want to execute decision like this I could also answer your question that it is a farce. But considering that many things in China are fake and that our and their list of important things in life are much different, I could also only comment "It's just the way they are".

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9 years 51 weeks ago
 
Posts: 152

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About Europe education system.

 

Since maybe 5-10 years ago in 70-80% of European countries in high schools, Universities kids will learn English and at least one more foreign language, some countries English + 2 foreign languages are mandatory and + 1 optional. If you cannot code a website and make a simple computer game, you cannot finish University.

 

So if you are younger than 30 in Europe, if you want that they don't call you not educated you must have these qualifications:

- native language

- English language

- + 1, 2 or more foreign languages except English

- simple website coding

- simple game coding.

 

In last 5 years I've seen many job posts that require English + one more foreign language, computer skills and driving license (maybe around 40% of jobs that offer salary above national average).

 

In Europe if you know only English as foreign language you could easily be not qualified enough.

Scandinavian:

you might want to add 

 - math skills

 - being able to cook

 - being knowledgeable about the world, past and present

 - basic physics

 - basic chemistry

.....etc

9 years 51 weeks ago
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viango:

Yes, you are right. European education system teach us about very wide variety of things.

 

I never met anybody outside Europe that can correctly name more than 10 different countries and their capital cities. Of course to name at least one country from each continent. I am not saying outside Europe people don't know this but in % Europe is way ahead.

 

What is the capital of Australia? For this question I get 90% wrong answers from non Europeans.

9 years 51 weeks ago
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royceH:

You only want me to name ten countries and their capitals..  I reckon I can do that.  Do I choose the countries, or you?

Australia, I know.

 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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viango:

Royce I don't say everybody, but majority of people I met. I don't mean that people outside Europe are stupid.

 

I just say that European education system teaches many different things. Because of this way of teaching and knowing many things about world we are not specialized for specific work/job, we can adopt to almost any kind of job that don't require engineering.

 

Majority of the rest of the world (again I repeat not all) especially USA (this is something I never experienced, but heard from stories of people that lived in USA), don't teach wide range of subjects but try to specialize children for certain jobs in future. After they finish their education they will be highly specialized for their job, but if technology changes and/or this type of work is history now they have small chances to adapt and switch to something completely different without the need to start learning about the new thing from scratch.

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Posts: 827

Shifu

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I think its the CIA/NSA/FBI thing. There is a plot to make the Chinese into western people.  The CCP is just falling for it. Why:Money.  As pointed out earlier only the rich send there kids to private English schools. Who makes the money on that one? the government officials of course, then they turn around and send the money to... you guessed: Americabroken heart.  I have lived in China for 6 years except in the summer. I have taught for 4 years. Essentially I agree with what is said here. I love teaching but I know that only 1 in 100 of these students will ever use conversational English after they finish university. That is frustrating.  The kids know it, They know I know it too. And I know they know it.  Making money is the point of making everyone learn English. Here in Sichuan nobody speaks mandarin willingly. What do they want? They want to scam their fellow Chinese citizens. Then blame us ESL people.  But hey, I get a job that I like even if the pay is getting lower by the month.

royceH:

You move from TaiShan?

Not Tai Shan but the city near there.

 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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donnie3857:

Yes I did. The school was good but the recruiter was a scammer.

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I think parents send their kids to learn English so that they can have opportunity to work for or own an export company. I met many Chinese people that earn 40.000 - 200.000 USD per year working in export company, and their only skill is English, they mainly suck at rest of their skills. If they sell for example artificial leather, they don't know what actually means PU or PVC leather, or some not allowed chemicals like DMF, etc.

 

On the other way I know few factory owners that sent their kids to USA Universities and they returned now with great English skills. And yes this is also about money, they told me that University dean comes to Shanghai to talk with parents so that they don't have to waste time and money to travel to USA for a meeting.

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I dont know. I think you guys are just rushing things @royce you live about as far away from the economic centers of china thats physically possible. Id think english would be slower to see improvements there.

Ive been here in China for more than 7 years and i absolutly See massive improvents. As mentioned above most large shops or buildings will have someone who can speak english and if you talk to most any high school age kid and they can speak reasonably well. Its not even shocking for me anymore when two or 3 people are in a coffee shop speaking english to each other. I try and listen to hear if they are from abroad and just look asian but usually there locals. We even get hk englishnchannels down here will some american channels too. And almost anyone you talk too will watch american media much more than chinese.

I think the system is definatly flawed but from where im sitting its working none the less

royceH:

Fair enough Mike...that's what you see. I guess I should get down to Guangdong some day...

 But what I see is this..."Hi, how are you?“  ”I like chicken."   "Where are you going?"  "I'm 27 years old."  And so on, like that.

And it was pretty much the same in Shandong, too.

They sell cold beer down where you are?

 

9 years 51 weeks ago
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viango:

Mike, same here in Zhejiang.

 

Menus in restaurants are bi-lingual. We don't have USA channels, but in cinema I can watch movies in English, titled for Chinese. CCTV NEWS is full in English. CCTV6 shows at least 2-3 movies per day in English or titled both in English and Chinese. Shops have signs in English also.

 

When I didn't know for directions if I needed bus station, subway or train station, I would ask teenagers especially if they wear those school uniforms.

9 years 51 weeks ago
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viango:

And Royce here in my school, kids 4-5 years old that finished 1 level would answer you those questions, except "Where are you going?".

Of course they will answer pre-learned answers only: OK, not so good, great and terrible.

 

And when we send out flyers in primary school, kids ask me where I come from, is everybody there so tall, blah blah. I mean they ask me more than just basic

questions.

9 years 51 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

@royce haha yes they always have cold beer! Even in the winter! They actually pay for the electricity to keep the fridges running. Its amazing!

9 years 51 weeks ago
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royceH:

Nah...don't believe it.  WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU BLOKES IN???

Show me a Chinese person who can give an informed answer to even the most undemanding question and I'll show you a full house.

And the next time a bastard answers a question with “maybe...." I'm gunna knock the disingenuous prick right out!
 

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