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Q: Why are foreigners in China seen as losers, but Chinese abroad are seen as winners ?

Just a follow on from a recent question.

It seems many locals here think a foreigner can be insulted by saying he/she is a loser who cant get a job back home. But if a Chinese National goes abroad, they are seen as heroes.

What do you think?

8 years 43 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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I think its just deep down Chinese people know this place is poop. So if they can leave? Winner! But if someone essentially goes backwards by coming from a good place to a bad place they must be a loser.

If only Chinese people truly understood that this place is soooo poop that they pay us a lot to work a little. The China suffering bonus is not public knowledge.

ScotsAlan:

Yeah Mike. I know guys who get an "inconvienience" bonus for working here.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

Everyone gets an inconvenience bonus for working here whether it's worded in those terms or not - corporate expats get it in writing, basic ESL teachers at training schools make enough money to go out a bunch and live a decent life for doing basically no work, which they could never do in their home country. People who charge hourly get more for English lessons then they would in their home country even before accounting for the cost of living. Without the inconvenience bonus no one in their right mind would stay.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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earthizen:

I agree this is the main reason, the other being jeolousy. They see foreigners coming and going,  free as a bird while they are stuck in the poop for their entire life (the majority anyway). Jeolousy breeds hatred thus they cook up all kinds of excuses to help them live with their inferiority complex. These selfish and cloistered zombies can never understand why highly paid professionals join organizations such as Médecins Sans Frontières which pay significantly less, let alone know of their existence. When they do know, they would beg and kneel when they need their help. With a full stomach, they would turn around and bite those who fed them. The vast majority are so damaged psychologically they are beyond cure.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Have you ever heard of the phrase ' frog of a well'?

mike695ca:

No, you just made that up.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

Well, in my usual day to day life, I dont meet that many special people. But there are a few online. I just find the " ha ha... in your face" attitude strange when some people get a visa to go abroad from here. But at the same time, I know loads of locals who go abroad every year on vacation, I know many who go on business, and I know some who work abroad. But they dont do this " in your face thing", or call me a loser. The people who call me a loser have usually never been out of China. I dont get it, desperate to travel, but hate people that do.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

Ok i googled it. I take that back.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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thefidu881:

Mike! you have summed it up in your answer.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

That phrase is similar to one I learnt on the Isle of Man....there it's a crab in a bucket!

8 years 43 weeks ago
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thefidu881:

Its not actually an English phrase rather translation of a phrase in a South Asian regional language and thanks for your contribution. I actually was fully charged but didn't want to reach my 'blow level' and honestly speaking I was pretty sure someone will explain that briefly and Mike did it pretty well.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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thefidu881:

Sorry, just binged...There actually is an English phrase 'frog in a well'. I just translated that one from the regional language as there is a pretty interesting story a friend told me about it.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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royceH:

I haven't.  What does it mean?

 

Have you ever heard this one....I'm so thirsty I could suck the guts out of a frog!

 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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I think its just deep down Chinese people know this place is poop. So if they can leave? Winner! But if someone essentially goes backwards by coming from a good place to a bad place they must be a loser.

If only Chinese people truly understood that this place is soooo poop that they pay us a lot to work a little. The China suffering bonus is not public knowledge.

ScotsAlan:

Yeah Mike. I know guys who get an "inconvienience" bonus for working here.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

Everyone gets an inconvenience bonus for working here whether it's worded in those terms or not - corporate expats get it in writing, basic ESL teachers at training schools make enough money to go out a bunch and live a decent life for doing basically no work, which they could never do in their home country. People who charge hourly get more for English lessons then they would in their home country even before accounting for the cost of living. Without the inconvenience bonus no one in their right mind would stay.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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earthizen:

I agree this is the main reason, the other being jeolousy. They see foreigners coming and going,  free as a bird while they are stuck in the poop for their entire life (the majority anyway). Jeolousy breeds hatred thus they cook up all kinds of excuses to help them live with their inferiority complex. These selfish and cloistered zombies can never understand why highly paid professionals join organizations such as Médecins Sans Frontières which pay significantly less, let alone know of their existence. When they do know, they would beg and kneel when they need their help. With a full stomach, they would turn around and bite those who fed them. The vast majority are so damaged psychologically they are beyond cure.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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It's because no matter what happens, your life is better than theirs. You have moved to a foreign country, become a success in a culture you were not raised in or still mostly dont take part in and they cant handle getting their asses handed to em daily. Insecurity i believe its called.

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Well, Vicky could very well change those perceptions.

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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because no self-respecting magical good-quality man would leave Nice-Thingsland for this place. right?

there must be something wrong with us.

ScotsAlan:

But that works in reverse too? If they think foreigner land is so great, why defend the Middle Kingdom so vigarously.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

face. if the Middle Kingdom was allround decent, detractors's critiques would be felt less poignantly. the truth hurts.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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royceH:

Agreed.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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All that has been said above, it's typically the men, I have never been called a loser by Chinese women, in fact I can see desire in their eyes when they look at me.

 

About the guys, your life is better than theirs and they envy you, even oral English teachers are paid several times what the locals can expect to earn at senior management positions, all the while working many less hours and still having a contract to secure their position while the locals can be fired on the spot for no reason.

 

Also we can get out whenever we want, they are stuck here unless they have a certain amount to invest in another country, because honestly, no Chinese graduate even from Peking University has marketable skills that could make him eligible for immigration in the West, their only hope is to invest dirty money earned from slave labor in China.

 

Oh and casual things, you come here, have fun, get popular with girls without lifting a finger, get laid all the time, enjoy your life, then leave when you get bored with it. They can't have sex unless they pay for it and can't get a girlfriend if they don't provide an apartment. Jealousy typically leads to anger and insecurity.

Hotwater:

One point on what you wrote. Chinese staff can't get fired at the whim of the employer, not without getting paid compensation, which pro rats to the UK for example is actually better. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

It is indeed better. A months wages per year worked. In the UK it is one week per year, after 2 years employment. So 3 years in a UK job gives you 1 weeks redundancy, 3 years in China gets you three months pay compensation.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Robk:

Yeah, its true. While many ESL teachers are treated poorly... IT IS NOTHING... compared to how the Chinese staff are treated.

 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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Seriously??

 

You're trying to use logic on this???

 

How long have you lived here?

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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There's laughable contradiction whereby Chinese are intensely nationalistic yet acutely aware of their country's inferiority. They all want out because they know it's better on the outside and they think anyone from the glorious foreign land who comes to their shit hole must be a loser. Yet if a foreigner speaks ill of the motherland the locals will go insane. The truth hurts.

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

 

In their minds, if you're coming from a Western country to ... here... then it can only be because you have no options. Why else would you move backwards. (disclaimer: I'm not saying it's a backwards move, just that a lot of Chinese seem to see it that way.Even the media)

 

I also think there are a few other factors though. One is just racism. Some people just  love to spread those negative hateful stereotypes.

 

Another is face, or making yourself feel better by gloating over the fact that foreigners are choosing to live here rather than their own country. In some minds it can only be because China is 'Number One' and the 'best' country. 

 

Ignorance and a lack of imagination plays a huge role too IMO. Some people just can't begin to understand that others will do things for reasons other than money and face. For example, when a taxi driver hears his passenger is making 6k a month at the local uni he will probably be amazed anyone would be so stupid as to move from Meiguo - where as everyone knows the streets are paved with gold and everyone has 2 cars and lives in a big house - to come here and work for about what he probably gets working 12 hours a day with no days off.

 

There's no way to explain that the teacher doesn't care about anything other than experiencing China for a year, doing some traveling and having an experience. Money usually isn't a factor but the driver could never think in those terms so he just assumes others don't either.

 

ScotsAlan:

Yeah. I agree with the taxi driver comment.

 

A similar thing I often meet is amazement at the social welfare systems in Europe.

 

My elder sister, for example had a breakdown in her late 20's. She was a hospital matron in a mental asylum. Had a bad breakdown, never worked since. Gets her benefits, a small health service pension and lives in a council house.

 

" Wow", is the normal reaction, " Why are you here when you could be in your home country where the Government pay you and give you a house for not working?"

 

From a Chinese cultural point of view, that makes us people from welfare state countries seem to be absolute nutters.

 

We could get something for free, but we prefer to work wink. Nutters. All of us.

 

 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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Sorry, double post.

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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No why.

because all foreigners are losers, they just are.

stop it.

you're really mean.

I hate you.

No i'm not, you are.

cool

just fup off.

 

(sigh)

 

The Chinese comfort zone is very small, hence someone who is not in their home country must have done something really bad so they can't stay there.

There seems to be little acceptance for life choices outside a certain set of criteria. 

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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One word: schadenfreude

ScotsAlan:

I had to bing that

 

Yeah. Makes sense. The assumption that we are down on our luck, and had no choice but to come here.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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Mike and some others have already nailed it. Basically, many Chinese are incredibly insecure and feel better about themselves when they are putting somebody else down or making someone else feel uncomfortable. 

 

What would happen if... Vietnam or Cambodia offered Chinese people 10 000 RMB per month to JUST teach Chinese...? I bet you that job posting will be flooded with a million applications within the hour. And when a Cambodian calls them a loser.... they would pull the victim card while happily saying English teachers in China are losers.

 

Hypocrites.

 

 

 

Strawberry66:

You made me laugh. Tell me what's the living cost in America and other native English speaking countries? In Shanghai,most English teachers get 15000rmb a month with a free flat. And the normal local living cost is very low here compares to this salary. It's a salary most Chinese may get after 10 years working experience. For sure Chinese will go for 10000rmb to teach Chinese. It won't make them look like loser if they do. My ex's Dad is making around 90000rmb in the USA. My ex told me 60000rmb is just his six monthes renting back to the states. Does China offer around 90000rmb to bring them to teach English? If China do,I am sure they can bring more qualified English teachers who is an English teacher back to home who has good working background in education.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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I think it's because most Chinese I've ever encountered don't know much.  Their scope of the world is very limited.  Very.  And they are fed a diet of state sanctioned horseshit.

 

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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I'm not sure this means anything but it just popped into my head, 800,000 Chinese students were expelled by American schools for failing grades due to the cheating style they used in China for years before going to school aboard ( Copying others homework ). Yep sounds like they are winners.

ScotsAlan:

I saw this week they arrested a Chinese gang who were providing poeple to do SAT tests for Chinese students. The parents would pay and the gang provided a clever person to do the test. It is amazing. The test is to see if you are capable of doing the course. But they dont see it that way. The test is just another to be paid for. Not at all interested if the kid is actually clever enough.

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Strawberry66:

I helpped several people for doing test and they paid me to help them and eventually I got all of them passed and I collected some money from them.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Strawberry66:

I do not see those students are winners. I would call them losers. I speak for the truth.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

That says a lot Vicky.

 

You helped people pass tests, you took money, and then declare them as losers.

 

Do you see the Irony?

 

Of course, you don't say if you helped them pass by tutoring, or you helped them to cheat.

 

If it's the former, why would you dismiss a student as a loser because they needed some extra tutoring to pass a test? It makes no sense. Were you a loser in the eyes of the person who was paid to tutor you in English? Did you lose face because someone had to teach you.

 

If it's the latter, and you took money to help someone cheat?  Well, your moral compass needs calibrated.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Strawberry66:

English is not my language. No one will see me as a loser to learn it. lol. It only saies I am.more clever than them. I can help them.pass testes easily by simply studing the book for a week. I think I have gift for studing.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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hi2u:

ironman, where did you get that statistic? I'd like to see it. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

They copy the homework word for word and no-one noticed for years? How does that work?

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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
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I think the Chinese must be winning in Canada. We're officially a bilingual country, French and English. This always pissed me off. I'm Ukrainian descent and if I wanted to speak a second language it would be Ukrainian not French. Quebec is French language only posted for signs etc. The rest of the country has to put up with French and English on everthing and odd are that English on a bottle etc is covered by a price tag.

 What I have noticed lately is that many grocery items have French, English and Chinese language on them. These are Canadian products not imports and I'm not in a highly populated Chinese area. .. . So when did Chinese become an official language in this country ????????

ScotsAlan:

I have never been to Canada.

 

But there does seem to be something going on. They swung theirs doors wide open for Chinese, them slammed them shut again.

 

It's a subject that deserves it's own question ?

 

wink

8 years 43 weeks ago
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This is going to be a deeply unpopular thing to say, but here goes....  The fact is that many (not all) foreigners in China are English teachers, and many (not all) of these English teachers are losers.  I know several of them.  They don't care about their work, they sleep with their students mothers, they party every night and generally misbehave before turning up to work the next day still drunk.  These people are here because they get paid more here than they could at home and they can get way with things they couldn't at home.  I'm not here to judge them on their lifestyle, I am even friends with some of these guys and they are decent people, but that doesn't stop them being losers.

 

Now, we all know the Chinese think we all come from one big place called foreignerland, it is also a natural human reaction to judge a society on the worst members of that society (everyone does this, but the Chinese do seem to do it more than most).  Therefore, in their minds we are all losers.

 

For the other side of your question, I think the people above have pretty much got it right.  They know China is a dump, so anyone who manages to leave is already a winner.

Hotwater:

Actually you're right....there are a number of losers here & I think we've all met them but you allude to it yourself that they are a minority of the foreigners living here. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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earthizen:

As far as I am concerned what you're saying is valid, actually I was thinking of putting it in my comment but forgot to. Psychos exist within every group (worldwide), it is their percentage​ within a group that determines how dangerous that group is.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

What youre saying depends on how you define loser. If you look at loser broadly to mean "People who are not competitive", without any kind of moral value judgment attached to it than yeah maybe most westerners here are "losers". I don't think you see many people with tons of other options and ambition take the China ESL route. Where they do they recognize the limitations and get out very quickly. 

 

But if you define loser narrowly as the same as "scumbag" than I think you're full of shit or maybe just plain wrong. I would take a random expat in China over a random American to hang out with EVERY TIME. Just demographically they're going to be better educated than average, they're not likely to be violent jackasses or bible thumping hypocrites cause those people can only function at all in their network of enablers. 

 

No...i've said a million times the China Expat Disease is underachievement. Nothing more sinister than that. You come here and have it OK without having to put out much effort or compete in a positive way. There aren't many rewards to taking ESL jobs super seriously so somebody already with limited career amibtion isn't likely to become a big time go getter when they're get interest from acceptable-looking girls without trying and don't have to compare themselves to more successful westerners.

 

And that doesn't make them bad people. Taking the easy road doesn't make you a scumbag. It just doesn't make you a "winner"

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

Hey now, what about a random American expat in China?

8 years 43 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

I said I would rather hang out with a random american expat in china than with a random american.  

 

Because the worst thing you're likely to find with american expats here is that they are underachievers.

 

Back home you have tons of violent jackasses, judgmental evangelical hypocrites, freeloaders, spoiled brats etc.

 

Do I think our best and brightest tend to live in China. Hell no. But the worst of the worst would never have the initiative to come here in the first place.

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I think its cause so much of the way people tend to think in PRC is about ranking things. Apple>Sony>Xiaomi whatever.

 

I'm sure they do it with countries too. Western Great Powers > China > Africa. And of course i'm not saying they're right in every little way but you can objectively say that salaries are higher in the west.

 

So I think they see a Chinese person who makes it in a more developed society as proving something good. It's trading up.

 

Whereas (to them, based on their need to rank everything i'm not saying this is what I think) a westerner who comes here must come here because they are a failure and moreover because they get to be better than us while they're here. 

 

The real comparison to make isn't comparing ESL teachers from the west to Chinese software engineers who get jobs in Silicon Valley. It's comparing ESL teachers to a non-entirely crazy scenario where in 10 years there is a demand for Chinese language in Africa and unemployable Chinese college grads flock there to teach Chinese. Of course they'll only be making <2K RMB a month. They won't have all the nice amenities of China. But they can live among people who never had a chance and have a higher standard then most of them with having to compete.

 

How are the Chinese going to feel about those people, who are working/making money for and getting paid by African bosses? They'll probably think they're losers too. But it all comes down to what they perceive the person to be doing. A westerner who is here running a succesful business they might be jealous of, but grudgingly respect. Same deal with a local making a killing in the African market. 

 

 

Strawberry66:

Actually I heard a German calls westerners come to China losers. I am not saying all are failed in hunting jobs back to home but most are. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Yeah I'm sure many are here who cannot get jobs back. They come here and settle for what is for a westerner a pretty lame situation because it's easy.  Get stuck here forever because they don't make an effort to learn bankable skills.

 

But what do you think of my ranking theory of Chinese culture? That everything is accepted to be better/worse than other things in it's category?

 

I'm actually really curious.  Please share.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Strawberry66:

I don't really think it's the Chinese thing. I have heard westerner ranking social statue by how sucessful a person in doing his/her career.

 

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Strawberry66:

For sure there are more things to judge a person other than careers. But people who failed in careers are still losers in careers. But they may life winners in other parts.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Strawberry66:

I think I am a loser's in my family's eyes compares to my younger sister. So what? I am not sad. My sister is a "winner" for having more saving than I do by eatting parents' food and live in parents' house for free and made some money from investment through the help with my family. I have been moving out to Shanghai for years and I have been earning my own bread for years. And I make much more in salary than she does even though she made extra money from investment through the help with family which isn't "winner" in my eyes. She has never had a boyfriend in 25 years. She never really traveled for years. I have less savings than she does but I have experienced my life a bit by traveling,eatting organic food and drinking better quality water bought by me. And my salary is higher than she does even living cost in shanghai is 1000rmb more expensive than my hometown city she works but I make 3000rmb more than she makes in her salary. And I am more skilled in getting hired by higher paid job if I want. The thing that I do not change job as I just want a stable job to put on CV for my visa application and for giving a good impression to companies in overseas. But I do not think most westerners in China can have good paid job backs to home according to the living cost there. They are losers in careers but they may not losers in life. I am not saying everyone failed in getting good paid job backs to home,but so far as I know,most are.

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The Chinese outlook is laden with contradictions. I completely agree with the assessments of how Chinese people tend to view the world outside of them, but I ought to point out the flaws in their reasoning. Fancy that, huh? Flaws in Chinese reasoning! Now I don't know what to believe in anymore...

 

In the late 80s through the 90s until the early 2000s companies from all over the world outsourced their production base to China. These men were the epitome of success according to the Chinese worldview on success in life, but they were so unbelievably naive and stupid - perhaps even arrogant with their religious view of neo-liberalism that trade and prosperity would compel the people here to become more like people in the west. They didn't take into account the sheer cravenness and servility of the general population towards money and power despite innumerable case studies and literature on China and its society.

 

Why do you think they listened to Mao after what he did during the Great Leap Forward? The parents of the red guards taught their kids that if they want to get ahead of the next Wang, they've got to get their nose deeper into the laoban's sphincter at the expense of individual integrity, human decency, respect for the truth and basic SAFETY. This historical event could only have occurred in Chinese society because of the familial pressure, the materialism (which I contend was prevalent before the CCP), and the need people have to feel like they're accumulating points in life and these points are distributed by some kind of zero sum matrix. The idea of living without such a matrix baffles them completely.

 

Any successful (ie: functional, adaptive and intelligent man or woman) would have been able to take any of the factors which show the underlying instability of China as an investment destination which classical economic theory can't take into account and could have taken their factory to any number of third world countries with a greater degree of stability using knowledge of history and the humanities. The labour in China might have been super-cheap, but the price was that you had to give 51% of your company to a local kleptocrat. Surely these people must now be kicking themselves that they didn't go to a smaller country like Vietnam or Malaysia.

 

In the days of the USSR, the main people who travelled there from abroad were scholars diplomats and old hands. The Chinese might regard such people as losers because they weren't particularly wealthy people. In the last few years up until today, around close to half of the foreigners in China were here for business. So I can rate the commentaries of the natures of the two countries according to the quality and depth of the information concerning the economy, the political system, the media, daily life etc etc provided by the types of people I described in the case of the USSR and the businessmen who came to China, and my conclusion is that businessmen are second or even third rate people. Look at the monster they've created.

 

Well done, you empty suited, cigar smoking jack offs! I hope you don't make too many babies with simple minded Chinese girls. Our educational institutions are already reeling as it is.

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I think the biggest losers are Chinese students who can't get into decent universities here go to the States and flunk out the first year. They thought it was going to be so easy or they could cheat their way through. Imagine all that money spent and their child loses face having to return home. 

laowaigentleman:

And being so stupid they can fail first year at a middle to low ranked US college when George W Bush graduated from the "best" one.

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Strawberry66:

Yes,they are losers. 

People are losers depends on how you define "loser".

 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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icnif77:

There's an article on Yahoo-gle about US Uni's 'addiction':

 

http://news.yahoo.com/american-universities-addicted-chinese-students-224241769--politics.html

Not much about 'flunk', but maybe it's true.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Garbo:

You didn't see the article that gave statistics about Chinese students flunking out. I great scheme for universities. Take their money, kick them out. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1282

Governor

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Well,come more and more and create a lot of mixed half white babies in China to make human being in this country looks more beautiful.

ScotsAlan:

So are you pro immigration to China, or anti immigration? You are sending mixed signals. You say we are all losers, but want a white husband, and a mixed baby. So you would marry a white loser to gain a mixed baby? And the more vain your white husband the better.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Strawberry66:

When did I say all of you are losers? Stop causing problem to make people against me. I do not mind marring a loser in career who can not find job back to home. And I have ability to earn good money in China. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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8 years 43 weeks ago
 
Posts: 759

Shifu

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I think one main point to consider here is the globalization phenomena. IMO, it has caused an ebb and flow of available jobs globally. Couple this with  the 2008 meltdown which IMO is still in effect regardless of all the "green shoots" and "favorable employment data" that the USA (the west?) spouts out which are either outright lies or gross misinterpretations of the actual factual truth. 

Many foreigners are coming here for whatever available jobs, especially if they simply cant find one back home. 

Hotwater:

Fully agree. I've been living in Guangzhou since late 2009 full time & visited a lot for two years before then. Since 2010/2011 the number of foreigners here looks to have grown exponentially. Even in Zhongshan an hours drive away the number of foreigners went from an amount you could almost count on one hand to masses of them, and a lot more of them from European countries rather than the English speaking nations. 

8 years 43 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

I totally agree a lot of lies are told.

8 years 43 weeks ago
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Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change student visa to labourer one is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77