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Q: Why does everyone degrade the Chinese for eating noodles so they can buy Iphones??
This has been a common example used as well as the driving a BMW while wearing a cheap suit. It has bugged me for a while and i dont really understand the sentiment.
Doesnt everyone need to sacrifice to reach goals???
Sure an Iphone might seem like a stupid goal, but for someone who makes 3000 a month it seems at least like a realistic goal.
How is it any different than people who max out a credit card then need to eat beefaroni for a month or two?
Or people that save save save to go backpacking for a few months? chinese arent getting those visas anyways so why are they called materialistic whores for wanting a Prada bag instead??
This isnt flaming ( for real) but arent the same people who keep saying this the same people complaining that China is hard. No house, no car. Sure you might eat like a king but will you remember all those pints and steaks in 5 years when u go home??
Nevermind the fact that most Chinese I have met actually enjoy that shit food.
It doesnt make any sense to me. It comes off as people who waste their salaries every month on booze and throw stones at people who save and buy nice things. What does everyone on this site do with their money thats so great and responsible that we can cast shade onto others?? Booze, cars , pizza, iphones. Its all money being disposed of.
Yeah and eventually we're all going to die so why bother thinking.
I mean, we can rationalize everything to the absurd for the sake of making a point.
That part of sacrificing for reaching goals... yeah, you got it yourself. Sacrificing anything worthy for a useless brick of face and materialism is a stupid act. Anyone going to a sacrificial financial mode for anything other than a bad life bump or for education doesn't deserve to make more than the little he's making anyway.
A wise woman once said, "We're living in a material world and I am a material girl" and a wide woman once said, "R.E.S.P.E.C.T, find out what it means to me." I don't care what extremes of material indulgence people go to in order to gain their self respect, for all I know there are sweatshop workers who save for twenty years to buy a bag that took them five hours and paid them a dollar to make, nothing would surprise me, I just wish more people knew that if they spend 3000 on a phone, they probably don't need to shout into it.
mArtiAn:
What I do with baked goods in the privacy of my own home is my concern thank you very much.
Living like a pauper so you can sometimes have a decent meal with your family, I understand.
So you can buy an affordable house? I get it. For your annual vacation to Yunnan? Really cool. So you can tote around an expensive phone and impress your friends? Totally ghetto! I despise people who try to appear like someone they aren't. I don't look down on poor or working class people, but I pity those who think faking it will make them happy.
mike695ca:
Ok... But your assuming they are faking it in the first place. What if they just want something perceived as nice??? I mean what are they supposed to buy?? If you cant get a house with your salary how are they supposed to making 1/4 of what you got?? Its like making fun of a 12 year old for having a paper route to buy a Xbox. Seems silly but dollar to dollar its about on par. People lack empathy. Including me, but have you actually taken a thought as to what you would do with a 2K salary?
expatlife26:
i actually think that's a really interesting argument, i hadnt really thought of it like that...about comparing it to the kid saving for the xbox.
I was saying in another response like for me its important to know how to dress cause if I look like a bum people wont take me seriously...but thats also for me if I dress nice (not expensive but like I can pick out clothes that fit and look OK) people who can help me WILL take me seriously.
Unskilled bumpkin doesn't have that option. It's not like the "mature" choice for them is to look presentable. No one is gonna take them seriously either way and theyre never gonna get ahead. Might as well just go for the fun option. They also probably have no idea how to dress outside of brand labels. So its the easy option too.
xinyuren:
You're comparing this to a kid who wants to buy some entertainment device???? Does he want to buy it to get face? To be popular? Even if so, he's just an immature kid. Kids do immature things. I don't expect adults to be so shallow and immature. Except in China
Robk:
Well, I made fun of some girl (a business owner in China) for having an iPhone. I asked why all the Chinese/females buy iPhones when their functionality and capability is far more limited than an Android phone.
She look at her phone and said she was about to trade it in for an iPhone6 but she doesn't like the phone. I asked her why... she replied because her clients expected her to have such a phone as a symbol of success and trust.
Her clients trusted she was smart, rich, powerful and trustworthy if she had the latest iPhone... go figure, Chinese roll like that.
xinyuren:
@ Robyk - Now your case is different! She is making a business investment and I can somewhat see her point. Like a good business suit, an iPhone in China is a sign of success. I think her reasons are valid. However, a poor college student who is starving himself to buy an iPhone is not successful. He is a pretender. His priorities are all wrong. Sacrificing your health for a status symbol is not the path to success and actual successful people will think it is stupid.
mArtiAn:
I think people underestimate the sustenance provided to one's self esteem through maintaining a bit of face. Back in school the middle class kids had nothing to prove about their financial situation and undercompensated for this in the wearing of grungy, ripped jeans and tattered trainers in a somewhat guilty statement of awareness of their economic privilege, whilst the working class kids all dressed themselves up to the nines in the latest trainers in an attempt to rise above their otherwise perceived lowly station. It's bling innit?
expatlife26:
yeah agree with Martian.
I think the better off a community is in general the less people worry about status. I grew up in one of those stereotypical rich suburbs and frankly nobody really gave a shit about brands.
We all basically had nice houses and comfortable lives, so we judged each other on what's really important, which is of course athletics. (kidding)
I think if you get like 5 rich families and 95 poor ones that's where you get the worst of the status bullshit. The rich ones don't have to try, they're popular just because they have it so much better and so they show off what they got. The poor ones see the most visible things about the rich ones and wanna copy it.
i dont see any of my friend who has iphone need to save money for it!yeah sometimes people need to sacrific to achieve the goals,just like you overtime sometimes to get longer vacation,i dont see any problem of it as long as it's worthy.
btw,I eat noodle everyday cos i like noodle and it's quite easy to cook it if i dont eat outside. hahaha
I get what you're saying and yeah i've thought about that too. I still think it's stupid...i mean shit I don't even have a high end phone, but i also have the luxury of saving for meaningful shit.
Like for example i'm going for my MBA right now (from a western program, online + fly in for exams) and I can pay the whole fucking thing out of savings. To somebody making only 3K/mth what the fuck is that ever going to amount to? In 5 years buy the cheapest car on the market? 20 years have down payment for a home?
I say the same shit about expats who teach in the middle of nowhere making 6K a month and living bummy to take pride in their savings rate...you can save all of that and it's not going to add up to anything meaningful.
Who knows, maybe if I was stuck making 3K or less with no realistic hope of making more I'd set my sights on stuff like having a nice phone too. interesting point mike
I just don't get how the latest phone is higher on their priorities that decent clothes. I see people dressed like beggars with the new iphone. I get the idea of saving for something you want, but why not get an ok phone and buy some clothes? Who are you going to impress when you still look like crap?
expatlife26:
I see that too. I guess I'd say they just don't know how to dress on some level. One reason I think stuff like an iphone just sweeps this place by storm is that it's something that everybody knows what it is, you don't have to think about what to get you just need to buy it.
I can dress pretty sharp on a budget, but that's cause I know how to buy clothes that fit and what looks reasonable. I can find the value. That type is only gonna know brand names. They scrap together 6000 RMB they can try and probably fail to put together a decent outfit or they can probably have more fun showing off an iphone. It's not like anybody important is gonna take them seriously either way.
Thats why I think this is an interesting point. What choice do they have? I think it's stupid too, but then for me (and probably you as well) dressing well can be the difference between being competitive or not. If I choose an iphone and shabby clothes the opportunity cost to me is that I look like an idiot to people on whom I could have made a good impression.
You take some unskilled bumpkin, he can have an iphone or nice clothes and he's still not going to get ahead. So shit maybe mikes right that's the most fun option they have out of a bunch of bad ones.
mike695ca:
Yeah thats my point, what else can they do??? They can save 30 years for a house and still not get anywhere. People gotta reward themselves in one way or another. I just feel like if we where all making that money, Iphones ( or something else that dumb) would also seem like worthy goals to us.
As for the fashion, I just think thats a matter of taste. Look like a hobo with an Iphone, or keep up to date with fashions use a shitty phone. They need to make a choice, and who are we to say which is more valuable?? Seems arbitrary.
Me, I dress like a crack head, I work in a factory and can wear sweatpants every day. When im off, its too damn hot in Guangdong for pants, so im in shorts and sandals. I havent bought a new pair of jeans since Reaganomics. And when my wife takes me into CK or somewhere im like " fuck, this could buy a hotel somewhere for a night, I have 10 t -shirts, screw this!
It works for me, but I know its not for everyone.
Plus we need to kind of think about who we are talking about
* From some farmer town where their family has a house anyways, so to buy in their new city would take Infinity years as housing prices increase faster than their meager savings,
* No chance to waste that much on a car , and they probably live in a company dorm or apartment anyways, so unless their prospects change, best not to think about it.
They are probably saving more money that 80% of foreigners here anyways!!!
So why cant they buy dumb shit too? Why do we need to have a monopoly on that?
expatlife26:
Yeah that's why I feel that argument once I read it.
Like for me the mature choice is to not buy a bunch of electronics and dress presentably. But I work in an office, and make enough that I can self-finance a western MBA...which I also think is fucking stupid but it's probably holding me back a little that I don't have one.
For someone that has no option to ever have meaningful savings might as well buy fun stuff. it's not being any less of a poser to have an iphone than to put together a bunch of smart looking business outfits if you know you're not going to make tons of money anytime soon.
I dunno, I dont excuse anybody's bullshit but I think people here have great reasons to be miserable. Expectations completely spiralled out of control compared to abilities. This place is still mostly poor as hell but to be cool you have to be at least able to live like a middle class westerner. That doesnt mean I wanna deal with those types of assholes at all (i sure as hell dont) but I get why they do a lot of stupid shit.
xunliang:
I guess. It might be because I don't use my phone as much as other people so I just don't see a need for it (I use hand-me-downs from my gf). But it will never stop being weird seeing someone on what looks like a lower salary than me, with more money to spend on the latest phone that I do. I could spend a few grand on an iPhone but that's a lot of money to me, especially for just a phone.
What's the latest iPhone cost? 6000, 7? And what do they spend on rent, or other living costs? I think it's a matter of priorities and I could put 6000 rmb to better use than they do buying a phone. Gym membership. Going to night school and learning a skill. Going on holiday. Renting somewhere nicer. Going out on dates with a girl. But no. To them they'd rather live like crap and then walk with their heads down looking at their phones all day.
xinyuren:
@mike - after carefully examining your point, you make even less sense. Your farmer who is saving more than the average expat can obviously afford an iPhone. Buying dumb stuff is buying dumb stuff. Wasting your salary on beer is just as stupid as overreaching for an expensive, unnecessary cellphone. Its misplaced priorities, plain and simple (thank you Xunliang). I don't think anybody is saying they can't do it. It's their money. We're saying it's stupid.
expatlife26:
well I dont wanna speak for mike and I don't have any sense of whether that person can save more or less than your average expat. Though I think a lot of westerners here are pretty irresponsible.
But what I feel in that argument is the "what better choice do they have?" angle. If youre making 2-3K a month you're either living at home (which sucks) or piling into a shitty place with 6 other people. lets say you buy a 2K RMB phone instead of a 6K...what does that 4K get someone in terms of living standards? Extra 333 RMB a month. So maybe you can split that shitty place 4 ways instead of 6. But you're still considered a loser, it's not like that really moves the needle that much.
If you really have really dim prospects...what is that extra 6K in your account going to amount to? Are there night schools people can go to here that offer programs which are taken seriously? I really don't know if that's a viable option. I agree with you guys 100% in principle because I'm currently going for an MBA. But that's a (mostly) online program from a legit school in the US and costs over $40,000. Which btw is considered relatively cheap for that kind of program. It will be taken seriously (i hope) but it's not like that's something our 3K RMB/mth guy can do.
So again, what I agree with here is the question "what better can they do?" It's a dumb thing to buy, but what's the smart play for them? Can't buy a house, can't afford to maintain a car even if they saved up the sticker price, can't afford education that will really move the needle for them. That honestly might be the thing that will make them the happiest.
xinyuren:
@expat - You really do look down on these people don't you? These are not Cambodians or Africans living in the jungle. This is a fast developing nation whose economy is growing by leaps and bounds. Yet you talk like their life is so miserable and hopeless that they should just buy an iPhone and die. I suggest you step off of wherever you're looking down on them from and see them as people who have dreams and potential. If they can save 6K for a phone, they can invest in their dreams and potential. It's clear that you and I see Chinese people in completely different light. In your eyes, they have no hope and the shiny iPhone is the only bright thing in their dark lives and they should reach for it. How kind of you.
expatlife26:
I know that attitude of youre poor anyway so just consume! isn't helpful at all. But i think what you're saying is unrealistic too. China's GDP obviously is way up which has led millions out of poverty. A good thing.
But there is still the question of how someone with no social capital is going to take that 6000 and invest it in their future in a meaningful way. If they can find a broker who will deal with them maybe they can buy some shares, but those historically don't move much.
Asset prices here are pretty similar to what they are in the west, yet salary growth has been pretty low. I just don't think it's realistic to just tell everyone that great things are coming so just sit tight and save your pennies for that great opportunity! And that's kinda the line the party was selling up until pretty recently.
Not everybody has great prospects here. Not by a long shot. The barriers to entry for entrepreneurship are probably higher than in the west as a ratio of per capita ability to meet them. Markets are crowded, commercial rent is outrageous in places likely to be hits and margins slim. Social capital is in really short supply.
I don't think i'm better than anybody, just in a better situation. And that's both because of opportunities which came partly from things completely outside my control as well as my own ability to make the most of those opportunities. I personally think it's really ignorant for me to tell someone to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
I mean what are you suggesting they do, specifically? I'm not trying to be argumentative so please do prove me wrong for being pessimistic. I feel like the cultural obsession with not being poor is so strong that if there were educational programs accessible to average people that employers would take seriously...EVERYONE would have already taken them...making them all but useless for a job seeker.
Look how expensive english lessons are! Because the default lifestyle is so bad, any kind of edge that a normal person could get is dulled to the point of irrelevancy because EVERYONE tries to get it. As sad as it is, the only way for anything to matter here is specifically because it's rare and in short supply and therefore because EVERYONE wants success and money it has to inaccessible to most people.
Shit that's not a china thing either, look how having a bachelor's degree back home doesn't mean anything anymore.
Do you think that people should just sit back, relax and wait to get rich eventually or for their salary to magically skyrocket? Cause that's probably not going to happen anymore. Some people got lucky with stuff like land buyouts, most didn't. My hunch is it's already too late for someone starting with nothing to get ahead baring lottery-winner-rare circumstances.
Again not saying anything trying to mean but that's my honest appraisal of the situation. Most people here have pretty much zero chance of meeting their cultural expectations of what it means to be a winner. Hell there aren't even enough women to go around for everyone to pair off.
xinyuren:
I see things differently. And I have put my money where my mouth is. For example, I showed a recent college graduate how to reach for her dream, develop herself and start her own business. When I met her, she was living in a one room house with no bathroom. Now, she makes over 10K a month in her own business. It took hard work and many tears. She had to change her way of thinking 180 degrees. But she did it. I would never have recommended to her or anyone else to just buy an iPhone and be happy. Making money in China is simple, if you have faith in yourself. With a little direction and a lot of perseverance, they can succeed. I just don't look down on them like you.
expatlife26:
Well hey that's great i'm glad you were able to help her get ahead. I'm not saying that nobody can do it.
But conflating "anyone can do it" with "everyone can do it" is a dangerous mistake.
xunliang:
There are definitely night course and weekend courses. And if they're only earning 2-3k a month, whatever they learn will surely given them better prospects. As for not everyone can do it, I disagree. People aren't stupid, they're lazy. If they have the ambition and will power, even if they didn't finish primary school, they can still find a course suited to their level and make progress. They could learn a language or an instrument if they're not interested in learning anything else. But they don't want to invest in their future, they're content with buying the latest fad in technology.
Mike saying people saving up for something they want is not something we should look down on is ok when it's acutally in proportion to their income. Living on the poverty line (or not far above it) and saving up for something you REALLY don't need, is just stupidity and greed. I've been poor, and I would never save up for months to buy a phone.
tbh66:
Agree. Ragged cloths, wearing sandals a size too small, exposing filthy feet. And a belt too large. This I don't get, seen so many wearing belts, ending at the ass, like a tail. Belt to meet at waste.
First impression is your appearance not a phone or bag
mike695ca:
These people are on the international poverty line. They sure as heck arent starving. And im saying its only greedy and irresponsible in our eyes. Its obviously acceptable here. And it goes both ways. Ask anyone on the outside looking in and any of us here are comeptely stupid when it comes to money. If they had our salaries they would be living in villas. They think its just plain wrong. And no, im not talking about your gf who gets to enjoy the nights out and holidays. Example, for our wedding i treated both mine and her families to Thailand. All of her family became convinced my parents where super rich because they kept ordering cappuccinos all day. It became this huge talking point. They did math and everything how my parents where spending hundreds of rmb a day on coffee when they had unlimited free packaged coffee in the rooms. They couldnt get their heads around it. They actually felt i was mistreated by my own parents for not giving me more when they where so obviously rich. My parents where oblivious, they just needed real damn coffee and there isnt a Tim Hortons in Thailand. Im not asking for sympathy for them, just a little empathy. I just dont like how the idea that Chinese are 100% materialistic pics is so driven on this site without anyone ever taking a second to consider themselves or them. And once again no one has answered what they are doing with their disposable income that is so great and worthwhile ( except expat, he kinda did)
xunliang:
If it's not materialistic, what is it? They're, as you said, finding a way to have fun, but it's from material items. It has nothing to do with them being Chinese. If someone back home did the same thing I would look down on him for stupidity in the same way. In fact I'm sure there are people the world over who do this kind of thing, and it's materialistic and stupid to live a life you can't afford when the money could be put to better uses.
mike695ca:
Everyone keeps asking so if you havent answered by now you wont but ill ask anyways. What should they be useing their meager savings for?? Stocks? Where they are totally uneducated on the subject while being in a country with completely strange and vague regulations, not too mention to constant fear of corruption. A house? Where their meager savings grow multiple times slower than apartment values?? The bank? where inflation would shrink 500 a month faster than grow it. Education would be great but for most its not an option. Especially considering that they dont really believe that more education or working harder is actually benifitial anyways. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-to-get-ahead/ So what should they be doing? Eating steaks?? That wasnt my point anyways, my point is, after your years in China with all the benifits and higher salaries you have had , what do you have to show for your time here that would allow you to cast stones and judge others??
xinyuren:
@mike - if you read my last comment you should have gotten the point. If not, I'll spell it out for you. The answer is a happy life. Contrary to what majority of Chinese or yourself believe, happiness doesn't come from iPhones, stock portfolios, or luxury cars. If you have enough to eat, if you have a decent roof over your head, if you have sturdy clothes to wear, and if you have love, you have all the necessary things to be happy. Loving your job is icing on the cake. Any able handed person can work toward those things. It's not rocket science nor does it take a lot of money. Just hard work, determination, and a little know how. You seem to think that there needs to be a pot-o-gold at the end of the rainbow for someone to be happy. Poor people don't need some status symbol to legitimatize their existence (neither do the rest of us, for that matter). The answer is in their own hands and heads. So there you are. If you are happy, you're a winner. And happiness doesn't have a high price tag.
dongbeiren:
@Mike I believe that the negative feedback you have received is due to your condescending and judgmental tone along with the blanket statements that you make about the spending habits of people on this forum. In spite of this, I basically agree with what you're saying when you ask what foreigners have to show for their high salaries. I have seen countless expats with fairly comfortable salaries blow their money in idiotic ways such as drinking every night, whoring and buying expensive plane tickets so they can continue the drinking and whoring in Thailand. It is true that a lot of expats with good salaries have little to show for years of work aside from good times, memories and experiences. Buying an Iphone is preferable to this behavior in my opinion because it doesn't destroy one's health and is a good quality if not overpriced product.
However, I disagree with your point where you say low income Chinese have nothing else they can do with their money. Yes, the stock market here is not really an option but what about real estate? I mean it's bubbly but a lot of Chinese have increased their wealth this way. Say you have a 2 income household pulling in 5-6k a month in a small city. Family helps with the down payment and the mortgage comes to 2-3k per month. If the property value goes up over time, they come out doing quite well for themselves. There are also risk free bank products with minimum deposits of 50 or 100k rmb that yield over 5%, which is enough to keep pace with and possibly beat inflation.
So to answer your question about what we expats personally do with our money, as I mentioned in our previous spat I save and invest a lot of mine. I just put my savings from the last year in a bank product that yields 5.4% and my previous savings are in a U.S. online brokerage account. I also travel about twice per year (went to Thailand and the U.S.A. last year) and live fairly well but not extravagantly day to day. And I don't have an Iphone but my wife does.
mike695ca:
@dongbei certainly, if a family has the money to save for an apartment they should and will. This goes without saying. Chinese society as a whole makes it so important that people will beg, borrow and steal to get one. But thats not really the argument here. Surely anyone who can afford an apartment coild also afford a phone. And i dont think anyone who has either agreed or disagreed with me has said that no one should buy a phone. They where saying that people will suffer in other areas in order to have that phone that they cant afford. And if you cant afford an iphone, than you certainly cant afford a house haha. Yes i usually throw some back handed remarks into even good points but i didnt really think i did in this case. As for the booze, while no one would admit it personally, most would agree its common. And the whole point was its silly to judge others. Seems odd that people can still disagree with that. But I do wonder what the response would have been if someone else posed it. Haha.
xinyuren:
Why would an admitted racist, arrogant, jerk, who judges and disparages everyone he thinks is lower than him suddenly decry, "oh,it's silly to judge others"? Has he suddenly become humble and magnanimous? No,usually because he's trying to justify his own feelings on the matter.
But it seems you don't understand judge. If I say that a course you are taking is unwise or stupid, I am not judging you. If I say you are an ignoramus because you took said course, I am. There, now you have the proper lingual ammunition to fight the good fight against those judging infidels.
Look out, you judgers! mike's coming! and hell is coming with him! HELL IS COMING WITH HIM!!!
dongbeiren:
Mike has turned over a new leaf and has now embraced his non-judgmental side! I'm looking forward to the new Mike!
Make some good points. But I think we all know that face/presentation mean the utmost to Chinese people. I read some stories about a man driving a fake Benz home on Spring Festival just so his family would think he was a success.
I don't get it all either. A lot of the foreigners all here seem to be broke all the time (from booze, western food etc.) and the Chinese try their best to appear rich (overpriced cars, iphones, hermes belts and LV bags).
I really hate buying new things unless I have to... like right now I really want a new computer (this one is okay but dying) but I refuse to unless I need to because it doesn't make sense to me. For me functionality is just much more important. You can look rich but what about when it is time to take all your new RICH buddies out to a very expensive mao tai dinner on your birthday?
The charade can only hold up so long and it isn't worth the energy trying to impress others all the time. The real problem is people don't really know what to do with their money. An interesting thought is how our school education never really teaches us how to save, spend wisely etc. (unless you takes finances in college/Uni) but only prepares us for making money (or be a slave) and with a set of mundane milestones to accomplish. Shouldn't finances that be part of something we should learn in elementary school since it is so intensely shapes the rest of our lives? I guess that may not make us very good consumers... we might question our purchases.
expatlife26:
I agree, schools should teach personal finances in at least high school. I took that course as an accounting elective in college and loved it though it was a lotta stuff my folks drilled into me.
For westerners here I think this kinda vacation mindset takes over. Like instead of living for the future you get into this habit of acting like you're on vacation and living paycheck to paycheck.
To a point you can live OK on even a pretty modest budget by western standards, but theres a limit. If you remember that really long blog I wrote a year ago I mentioned that when I was teaching I was living paycheck to paycheck while trying to network and build a professional image. That was realizing that making 6K a month, me completely unprepared for saving was only a little bit more broke than me obsessively saving every last penny I could.
So for that guy making 3K a month he's damned if you do damned if you don't.
Robk:
@expatlife
True, living paycheck to paycheck is the mentality of the masses. I found it to be considerably stressful and unrewarding myself.
That's the thing. People live their lives in a fog and don't know the next step. All they know is they want a reward for living a mundane life like an iPhone/iPad or whatever. But if they would have just taken that money, invested in something with greater returns in the future (such as a better education, skills, business investment etc.) then they could be doing what the enjoy, have an ounce of self-respect and a high probability of being financially secure.
People spend too much resources on the image of success rather than actually obtaining it.
Say what you want, but I've always admired a person who saw what they wanted, and made the necessary sacrifices to achieve that goal. If they have to eat shit noodles in order to afford the latest iPhone, then that's okay. That's what they want.
It looks ridiculous from your point of view because you're very rich compared to them. You can easily go and buy them. Not everyone is trying to look rich... some people just want to have something nice.
Back when we were super poor, we had to make sacrifices. I went without eating healthy food so my wife could. It was something I wanted. I had to go without a lot of stuff just to provide for my wife and daughter, to get that newest toy we wanted for the baby, etc. Now we're sorta rich. We're happy. It's the same thing in my eyes...
xinyuren:
I also respect people who go for what they want.... up to a point. People who trade their kidney for an iPad do not get my respect. They have scrambled eggs as brains.
Hulk:
Kidney for iPad = dumb fuck.
Organ for iPad = dumb fuck.
There are sacrifices, and then there's dumb fuckery.
I agree with that.
I wold say it's a matter of different lifestyles and priorities between most expats and locals. I consider locals foolish who make 3,000 a month and obsess over a 6,000 kuai phone just as I don't really get foreigners who make 10,000 a month and live paycheck to paycheck blowing it at the expat bar every night. Overall I'd say foreigners tend to prioritize lifestyle while locals prioritize material possessions. There's no real right or wrong, just different mindsets.
On another note, I totally understand saving up for a smartphone but why does it have to be an Iphone when another phone can perform all of the same functions for a fraction of the cost? It's just worshipping a brand name and the ridiculous status that comes along with it. But hey, if someone's willing to drop two months salary on it then good for them, not for me to tell people how to spend their money.
Now if I were a local on a meager salary I'd probably try to save every penny of it because 1) China lacks a social safety and I might need it later for healthcare expenses, retirement or a family emergency 2) Chinese society presents a mine field of obligations that cost money and 3) If I spent it, I would personally prefer an extra couple hundred a month in income to eat/live better than have a bling phone.
I didn't notice anyone who made this point *but then, I skimmed half of it...).
There is one logical bit missing from this argument - you're on 3K a month, and can save maybe 100 of that...so it takes you about 3 years to save up for your wonderful new iPhone 6. And you buy it for the 'prestige value' you believe is inherent in such a thing.... until, a year later, the next best great model comes out, and you're nice and shiny bit of face-bling makes you look out of date... So, what are you supposed to do - save up again for the next 3 yeare to get your mobile face-bling back again for a few months/ year???
A similar argument can be said about the beer, food, etc - but at least there is usually the recognition that it is only fleeting, and that the pleasure comes from the here and now. The face-bling is illusory - you might feel great about it now, and for the next few months, and some people might even admire you for it - but after that, what you trying to buy for your 3 years of saving is gone.
This is such an interesting argument, I'll share a story with you all.
When I was 11, I really wanted to buy a particular Lego set. At the time is was the most coolest thing to me, all I could think about was having that Lego set. It was a helicopter Lego set complete with a tiny winch and some rescue guys. Unfortunately being a kid and having no money I was at the whim of my parents for the good ol green stuff $$$. My dad offered to give me $5 a week as pocket money, but I knew i would have to work bloody hard for it. At the end of the week I went down to the toy shop with $5 in my hands to finally buy my Lego set. When I picked up the box the price had been raised from $4.99 to $9.99 
So I worked hard for another week. I did every job i was told to do, including my sister's chores. I was determined to earn my pocket money, buy my Lego set and look cool for the other kids at school. At the end of the week I went down to the toy shop again only to see the price had risen again from $9.99 to $14.99, at the time I certainly didn't know any better but this really pissed me off! This process actually went on for a while. In fact I remember the price went to $35. One day after coming home from school, I found the Lego set I wanted along with all my pocket money waiting for me on the kitchen table. A nice little surprise for working hard. It wasn't until I was much older did I find out that the guy in charge of the toy shop was my dad's best friend. Every time he saw me come into the toy shop my dad would distract me and his friend would quickly raise the price haha. The moral of the story is... eat your greens, make your bed and run bloody fast after you put snails in your sister's bed.
These days, who really cares about what you got? It only matters to yourself and your loved ones. I say... go spend your money on what makes you and your partner happy. If you don't have the $ to buy it, then there is no shame in saving for it.
Robk:
You learned an awesome lesson and also built up probably one of the most valuable traits a person can have... non-relenting determination.
Hard work does pay off, but most people really don't work that hard... they just complain like they do.
years, sometimes a lifetime's worth of saving are poured into a single consumption. it's real-life benefits over a more inexpensive version are minimal. it boils down to bragging rights: a bit of leverage in social interactions. granted, there are shallow people elsewhere too, but here it is seen as a vital need. given that government and society are dominated by bullies, these consumptions may indeed prevent people from becoming targets. i nevertheless reserve the right to scoff at the practice.
for a great deal of consumers, they don't break the bank out of fear, but merely childish wants. it's because people view family as an obligation rather than spontaneous love, so they grow up with an emotional void, thinking that the next purchase will make everything right. the consumptions sure are shinier than your parents' affection. but i hazard a guess that no expensive trinket can bea surrogate for encouragement and confidence.
Personally, I enjoy the little things in life. I don't need a BMW (would like to, but it is far far down the list). I'd rather have a fresh milk than an UHT milk etc.
But the example of eating cheap noodles to get an iPhone well. Perhaps it is not as stupid as not saving up and getting the same iPhone on some expensive contract.
At my MILs place, there is an old woman who goes through all the trash cans several times per day, from early morning to late evening. She picks out plastic, paper etc and other stuff she can reuse or sell. I have often seen her on her bike with a big pile of e.g. used plastic bottles, riding off to whereever that can be sold. See, I throw away these bottles, not sure how many are needed to get 1RMB, but I am sure that this kind of waste on my side means I will have more difficulties getting a BMW.
Anyway, I am more of a Merc kind of guy.
Everyone wants to be loved. Everyone wants to be respected. Everyone wants to be thought of as a worthwhile person. When you see a person driving a new Audi, BMW or some other expensive car remember that they are probably trying to obtain a socially conditioned response from you. This person is trying send a signal to you that they are successful and intelligent. They want you to know that they are worthy of your time, attention, friendship and possibly love. They think that without these luxury products that they are possibly not worthy. It is on the back of this sense of insecurity that advertising companies make billions and billions of dollars. So when you see someone with a flash phone or a nice new car you shouldn't feel envious. You should feel pity for the poor love-starved fool that has been tricked out of his money by manipulative advertising companies. Nothing more than babies wanting attention from mummy.
dongbeiren:
I"d say this is true in many cases with the Chinese. Now, there are plenty of people who can afford nice things and buy them because they're nice. But as for people who overextend to purchase fancy crap that they don't even know how to use properly........ yea what you said.
Robk:
Very true. It is a known fact that many of the most successful people are also the most insecure. Insecurity (as you have outlined), is one of the most powerful motivational factors when turned into a competitive attitude.
That's turning a frown upside down.
mike695ca:
While probably true, your POV also sounds like someone who is also projecting his own insecurities. Im smarter than society, i didnt want one anyways. I could if i wanted to though...
coineineagh:
@mike: I get your drift. But everyone has their own way of coping with their position in life. There may be people who are shallow at heart but hide behind an aire of maturity, though that's quite a difficult facade to uphold. Such people will be easy to spot because their shallow motivations will eventually shine through. Some people embrace their materialism like you. But when you go around saying everyone must be just like you, but just hiding their true nature, that's taking it a bit too far. Do you honestly believe non-materialistic people are all just pretending? Then you really lack perspective.
You should see my e-bike. It's red and shiny and it has a little basket. Everyone has insecurities, I never said I didn't. Having insecurities is one thing. Letting them have sway over you is another.
dongbeiren:
I'm not sure how that relates to Mike's point.... do you mean your e-bike is flashy bling?
Just a small remark. I always wonder how many people, who are claiming that they are coming from liberal and free society and they are having liberal and tollerant way of thinking and approach to the life, by the word liberal and tollerant mean - in accordance with their point of view.
In my country we were always tought that whatever the other person does, as long as it is not against the law and as long as it does not effect/limits/hurt other person, is OK.
If there is a person who prefers to starve in order to buy expensive, unnecessary tool so I have absolutelly no trouble with that. I am just not such a person and therefore I will not do that. But how does it effect me if the other one does? Why should I have any trouble with that and as of the commenters wrote 'dispise' such a person?
DrMonkey:
If you live in a society where a majority of people spend their energy to futile pursuits (ie. buying an expensive phone when something cheaper would fulfill their needs), you obtain many isolated individual running their rat race, rather than a society. Too busy spending much energy and resources for an iPhone, too little energy and will to care about anything else, say pollution, politics (as in what are the decision made for me and what are their consequences), etc. Of course, this exists everywhere to various amount, but Chinese society pushes that farther than most.
You might not be like this *personally*, but if you are a minority, people who cares about other things that the latest gadgets are silent and of no influence. You have to follow the flow against your own will, because of a sheepish majority. So out of frustration, you might feel disdain for that majority.
xinyuren:
I assume you are Chinese, so you have a right to feel a little sensitive about my "despise" remark. Please allow me to explain.
You must live in a society where people value material things more than civility.
Where people work harder to look developed than they do to be developed.
It is a shiny facade. Like your beautiful lobbies in your hotels, hiding the dirty rooms.
This, in my eyes, is something to be despised. It is not real. It is a lie. It is a dream.
I don't despise people who buy iPhones. I despise people who can't afford such luxury, but reach out for it so they can get face. If your society spent more effort to develop yourselves, you would get the face you so desire. Why should you or I care about this? Because this way of thinking is holding back China. This way of thinking turns this country into a joke. And I think China can be better than just a shallow facade.
And, as Monkey said, this isn't just a China problem. But in China, it seems to be a bigger problem.
gouxiong:
Actually I am not Chinese. The problem we are dealing here with is in my opinion the tolerance. Why do you want to impose your ladder of values on other people? May be it would make your life more comfortable but where do you take your certainity that also their lives will be better (or at least that they want that and that they woudl feel it that way)? I am European and in European countries history the worst aeras where when one group of people believed that their life values are better than the other group one. And here I am not talking about the 20th century but more about the religous wars accompanied by burning the men and mainly women (witches hunts) in order to save their ethernal souls ... I strongly believe that as long as we act within the legal scheme of the given country so my freedom ends at the other person freedom limits. For instance I love tea. I drink it the whole life and I dare to say I also understand the tea relatively well (it's a bit similar to wine somellier :) ). Believe me that the good tea comes expensive (but pls do not mistake it for expensive being always good ;) ). If my hobby would be that obvious like for the persons carrying new Iphones so I assume that many people would say the same thing about me spending relatively 'fortunes' on good tea when from their perspective it makes no sense. But as long as I use my own money so it's nobodies else business. I earned my money and I also decide how I spend them. What concerns of the hotels then I assume it's totally different cup of tea. Believe me that even in China there are hotels where the rooms are absolutelly superrior. It costs a lot and as per my opinion it makes no sense (unless you need to show off in front of your business partner) but the choice is usually there (at least for tier 1 and 2 cities). Nevertheless the situation is dictated by simple business rule of profit maximizing. Why should a bsuinessmen spent more money when it would not bring the adequate return of investment? And even if it would - it's still the investor's decision to go for it or not. Pls keep in mind that even in Shanghai and Beijing, which cities probably have the most foreigners still the vast predominance of the businessmen using the hotel of all grades are Chinese. Pls do not get me wrong - I can usually understand the people who do not like one or the other aspect they are confronted with. But I still believe it's not the right approach to judge or even 'despise' the people who do not do anything else than spending their own money on the things they like (as long as all is within legal frame of course). Let them do that - how does it effect you? And if it borders you so probably these persons will not become your friends. Fair enough. But why to condemn them?
xinyuren:
Haha. you are hilarious. Let me see if I understand you. You think I am condemning somebody? Who? To where? When is it wrong to have an opinion about something? So you despise nothing? You like everything? It must be great not having any strong opinions (Not!). What am I imposing on others and how? Did you even read the original question? He asked for opinions on a topic. I gave mine. You think I don't deserve to have an opinion? I'm very surprised you aren't Chinese because your response is typical of them. People are free to do as they please (within law) and I am free to have an opinion about it. You understand how that works?
It seems you are not too familiar with internet forums. Welcome to a brand new world.
xinyuren:
By the way, the long argument you used, doesn't even apply to this topic. It seems you don't even know what we are talking about. Would you sell your kidney for some tea? Would you allow your family to suffer by spending the family's life savings on tea? If you had to choose between buying tea and developing yourself, would you choose the tea?
Now here is how your answers affect me: If you choose the tea over your well being or your family's well being, you are affecting society. Your stupid decision is bringing down your community. A whole society that chooses to buy tea rather than to better it's future brings down the country. I can't stop you from wasting your life for tea (neither do I want to stop you), but I can surely despise your actions.
gouxiong:
Dear xinyunren I must thank you for your latest comments. I could hardly search for better example to illustrate my comment main point. It's tollerance (or actually the lack of it, to be exact).
When the day arrives that an iPhone is considered a "goal", it's time to take a look in the mirror and evaluate what's really important in life because you clearly are misguided.
