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Q: Cops arrest undocumented English teachers in Shenzhen
Good article to read for those of us in Shenzhen
http://www.thenanfang.com/blog/cops-arrest-undocumented-english-teachers...
8 years 46 weeks ago in Teaching & Learning - Shenzhen
Guess the schools didn't pay off the bribes in time.
Get a Z visa folks... seriously. Nothing other than a Z is worth working on.
ambivalentmace:
perhaps the free english classes for psp officers children did not work out so good, and the kid came home with a bad english test score, and the officer says what do they teach there, lets find out. live by the bribe, die by the bribe.
Honestly, the teachers knew what they were doing; they weren't defenseless innocents in it all. I am not excusing the slimeball schools at play here--I understand how the scum who run them work, how they court teachers who don't even qualify for a work visa, string others along on the promise of one that is always just one month off, both of whom are are easier groups to manipulate than a legal worker who can take any real grievance to the PSB (for whatever that would get them)--but, that does not remove responsibility from the people who are deliberately scoffing at China's visa laws. Work visas are for jobs, tourist visas are for scenery, student visas are for coursework, and business visas are for internships, exc--none of this is impenetrable or groundbreaking stuff. I don't like it when people pretend that the visa & immigration regulations in my own country are optional little trifles (and then act like my country is monstrous in those few occasions when it does care to enforce its own laws), so I can't exactly empathize with people who treat the laws of other countries like they are similar trifles. National sovereignty isn't a game.
Now that I'm off my soapbox--the naive types that these "schools" (training centers aimed at children, by the looks of the article) recruit need to realize that if a "school" is cheap enough to not sponsor a work visa, they are also too damn cheap to bribe the authorities away forever. And, as the teachers in that article learned, when the bribe payments get too far & few between--it's not the people who pay the bribes who get the heat. It's the illegal teachers...and the schools generally get slapped on the wrist/made to recruit new naive types. Is it fair? Life's not fair, particularly in China. Is someone on an illegal visa really in a position to debate the finer points of how they are being punished for their boss' unwillingness to keep the police happy with any interested Chinese official? No. Are any Chinese officials even interested in what an illegal foreigner has to say? Not if the bribes have slowed to a trickle.
And, that is why you go legal.
Answer of the day above!
ironman510:
but it's the same answer I've heard for years. So can't we just say this is the answer of the century?
Rachel: I think the schools pay the bribes still, but it simply keeps the owners out of jail. Recently, the PSB still targets the foreigners.
It appears to be the same with the foreign companies. They pay the bribes, but still get targetted.
With the economy worsening, expect targetting of foreigners to increase drastically.
RachelDiD:
Ok, that makes sense. When I worked for a shitty training center *mistake of my life--but I did do it on a Z, to not be a hypocrite about hating the 'let's reward the illegal immigrants and not give a shit about punishing legal immigrants' attitude that seems to thrive my own country).
okay let's make this kind of scenario.what happens if the teacher has a legal visa to work in China but the school is not allowed to hire him what happens to the foreign teacher?
Traveler:
The teacher can only work for the school named on the visa. Anything else is illegal.
ironman510:
That sucks, almost everyone on a legal visa loves working part time at other joints.
RachelDiD:
But 'loving' to do something is not a reason to break another country's laws and do it. Again, I don't really champion the xenophobia-fostering-and-gratifying attitude of the Chinese government--but, again, I refuse to act like another country's visa policies are toilet paper, when I hate it so much that my own country's demagoguaticians more or less insist that its visa/immigration policies would get used more if they were toilet paper.
Shazam! Who would have known.....that's sad. Really really sad!
every country has laws about legal requirements for work: i.e. the correct visa. only an idiot would think that they are exempt from obeying the law. What WILL be interesting is the way illegal workers are treated. Most countries don't feel the need to publicize the apprehension and deportation of illegal workers. so there MAY be an element of racism in the way it is handled in China
ironman510:
The U.S does nothing, they instead make these illegals U.S citizens. God I hate my own countrys policies. The U.S will turn into France someday and the president will say: We have too many illegal foreigners and not enough housing and jobs.
The main issue here is that the schools are unwilling/unable to provide a working visa. There are many regulations in place to open a school that is legally allowed to provide the correct paperwork to foregn workers, there are however many schools open. It is very similar to prostitution, illegal but in plain sight.
There needs to be a better overhaul of the visa system here in China to reflect the number of illegal teachers that are genuine. I am a clear example, I don't have a degree because I dropped out of my major (Sport Science) after suffering a major injury that stopped my studies. I have completed the TEFL (not just an online one) and have taught English for many years and have married to a Chinese yet I am still not eligible to work here.
If you consider the number of illegal teachers here who are native speakers and would have no problem paying taxes then the government could easily be bringing in a lot more money from taxes. I for one would be happy to contribute in return for the security of being here legally.
In my opinion the working visa should be easier to obtain and should be personal rather than linked to the school/business you work for, there are a lot of shady operations out there and if you get tied into one it can be a hassle to get out.
ironman510:
@hiddenjelly so you are working on the marriage resident permit or a family visiting visa? how long have you done that form?
hiddenjelly:
@Ironman: I've been on the marriage resident permit for about 18 months, before than I had a tourist visa. My first job in China was with EF and they managed to doctor some degree for me so I could get a work permit.
ironman510:
I wish we could work on marriage resident permits legally. then we could change jobs whenever we want
Ironman...why are you so obsessed with illegal teachers? Are you working with the PSB?
They are only here because the demand is so high for them and as long as there is demand there will be supply. If China was really serious they would simply shut down all these schools and eliminate demand.
Obviously in a perfect world everyone should do things by the book but why are some people here so hostile to teachers without proper visas?
I have friends here in SZ that are great teachers and most have proper degrees and certificates but can not get the proper visa because the school can't get it. Obviously they would all prefer to be legal.
For the record I am NOT a teacher.
ironman510:
@thedude.... I think this is a very interesting topic and I like to keep my ear to the ground and learn from all experiences. Trust me I wish I was working for the PSB. I'm sorry but I don't like teachers coming here on the wrong visa because it ruins the opportunity for the those of us that are legal.the opportunity goes out the door because of Convenience. Now can you argue with that?But to be fair with you everybody has their own opinion this is just mine.
ironman510:
Your friends and the schools that hire them are both responsible for their own actions. They know the risks and we must remember that the demand for these teachers are schools that are not allowed to hire them. There's only about 100 schools in Shenzhen that can hire teachers legally. The poor guys at Hampson English who got caught last week can tell you that.
ironman510:
@Carlgodwin & thedude.... did you guys ever think about the bigger picture or are you just naive? What about us legal working folks. We have Chinese wives children to support and raise abroad and because of this situation with so many foreigners coming here have tarnished and given us a bad reputation.So don't try to make excuses for your friends coming here to work illegally. yes I admit the Chinese visa system sucks, it is very hard. It took me 4 months to come here to take on a legal job. And I would never want to do it again. But that's still no excuse for working illegally.
CARLGODWIN1983:
Ironman,
I have a Chinese ex-wife, and a son, in part because it was so difficult for me to work legally in Chengdu nevermind CHina.
I found a job and was very well looked after there, but I left because of a number of reasons.
I subsequently got divorced.
I know how difficult it is here so I can tell you from all angles.
My ex-wife could work legally in the UK if I took her as my wife, but the obstacles and requirements to get her there were huge.
As you know, being married here doesn't mean we can work. It's unfair.
I tell you that's Nicholas Cage!
Ironman seems to have an agenda.
ironman510:
lol, can you arrange my schedule please? I want that schedule in 60 seconds. feels like it's been years since I've seen Nicolas Cage in any movies. I miss that guy
bill8899:
OK I can write your schedule, but don't treat it like a national treasure for goodness' sake.
Oh, and if you don't like your schedule, don't go all Lord of War on me.
Oh wait, that one's too obvious ...
You talk about the illegal teachers on the wrong visa and you talk about the legal workers. So here is the problem:
Everyone in china can get a working visa if you pay the money. You can pay an agency to give you a fake degree and you get your working permit in the city, just fly home and get your Z visa.
That doesnt make it better....
The regulations of the Z visa are not as strict as mentioned, if you have a good company or school they will arrange the working visa no matter if you fulfill the requirements.
CARLGODWIN1983:
Fake degrees make no difference now as they are verified now by a new system they have. I was told by my friend the other day when he went for a visa.
ironman510:
I got mine in America. It just took a long time to get all the requirements and shipping them overseas.
ironman510:
@Carl... I can tell you that there's no software that can check for degrees. they use a special light flash on your degree. if somebody's background of Education could be checked out easily they could check for everything else at the same time. that's a load of BS
ironman510:
@Carl... okay will give you a chance to explain the mechanics of how this software works and how to check? what about social security numbers? how do they know that's not somebody else's name, a lot of people have the same name a lot of people went to the same school and a lot of people went to the same university.
Kaiwen:
Why would a "good company or school" have to get a dodgy 'z' visa? Surely only the bad companies or bad schools do this because they are either unable to recruit the right caliber of employee or have no right themselves to obtain a legitimate 'z' visa invitation letter.
dom87:
don't get me wrong...
i mean the good schools or companies will get you a legal z visa because they have reputation at the government and are trusted.
the bad schools either fake your degree or let you work on an F visa, both is litterally shit but how can you differ those fake Z visas from the real ones?
Until they dont check the requirements strict and check the degree there is no way to stop illegal working here.
i came here as english teacher too just to come here fast. Worked on an F visa for like 3 month then got my engineering job in a company on Z visa. So all I can say if you work more or less illegally you will get abused anyways. mad world here
I just don't get it, the same thing pops up again and again! And this is not the first time i have ranted about this. If you work illegally, your going to get caught!
A little prior preparation and research before embarking on an international job hunt is absolutely necessary! Respect the local culture and its laws, and all will be fine.
ironman510:
It pops up again and again because 90% of them make it. So not everyone gets caught. that's a little arrogant to think everyone gets caught.
RRoy:
I have no problem with people working illegally, its just i don't like to hear their whining if they do get busted.
