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Q: Is it a cultural thing or do Chinese really feel no shame?
2 cars driving side by side going 60 in a hundred zone. 400 cars behind them honking and freaking out. Refuse to move. You pass by and no shame, a stone face killer.
A woman on the subway fails to realize her invisibility cloak is faulty with her fist up her nose and rolling and gazing at the prize in amazement looks around to see the entire subway car is gawking at her. Poker face.
2 business guys sitting in a packed restaurant yelling over the voices of everyone else about how they found this cheap hooker for 200 yuan. Not even a poker face!! They are damn proud to get such a deal!
A person screaming on her phone in an elevator... movie theatre... library, like they have never used a phone and they arent quite sure that the other person can hear them, cant trust this new technology you know. Everyone glaring at them or shushing them. Nothing, cyborg face.
Every single day I see people do things that I and any other normal person would be humiliated if caught doing , but not a care in the world.
Is it a cultural thing? Do they just hide the shame while westerns will look down and yell our " my bad! sorry"
Do they have the power to feel shame?
And doesnt all of this fly in the face of a country thats famous for a culture of " Face"?
And it perplexes me when im sitting at a red light for like 5 minutes and car comes around the line up of cars behind me drives along the shoulder, weaves in and out of a bus stop and tries to cut in to the 6 inches in front of me. Im staring at his face looking for a " sorry!, im in a hurry, do you mind?" but nothing, straight ahead. This road was made for him. And he has the nerve to get mad and honk when i dont let him in! WTF are these people thinking???????
Paulberger:
they do think, just not about anybody but themselves... it comes down to when EVERYBODY in the country was poor and starving. the see food, they eat like there's no tomorrow because they didn't know when their next meal might be. so now, their mentality is "i must be first, i must get mine!"
Robk:
Yup, I know all about this.
The taxi drivers have totally cut me off hundreds of times without warning because there is a fare. There should be a checklist of mentalities you need to realize when you come to China:
1) Grow a thick skin, cause people are poorly mannered, will stare and whisper about it and it will become annoying.
2) Develop EXCELLENT skills in crash prevention. Honestly, this is the only thing I think Chinese are good at figuring out (in terms of problem PREVENTION). They see the person waving, they see the taxi... they figure the taxi is going to cut them off, try to kill them over 7 yuan. And you better learn that too!
3) Chinese pretty much have no shame, at least none that they will show you! If you have nothing to offer them, or nothing to threaten them with... they don't give a damn.
expatlife26:
Agree with Rob, I think the best thing any of us can do is just be thick skinned. Getting mad about dealing with the locals is like going to a restaurant, ordering a shit sandwich and then when it comes getting mad at the waiter. All he can say, is "hey, what did you expect?"
i believe it comes down the the "me me me" complex that is ever so popular in this country. nobody else matters. they look down on everyone else, all of them. they think they are god's gift to earth and can do nothing wrong, rude, or embarrassing. it's your fault for looking at the lady with her fist up her nostril, your fault for not tuning out the annoying person on the cell phone, your fault for wanting to drive the speed limit when they have graced the road with their presence. i think the "face" complex adds to the problem. since they can do no wrong, and others don't want them to lose face, they say nothing... so no lesson learned... god... your post made me so f@cking angry just thinking about it...
expatlife26:
Haha, if anything I think that's giving them too much credit. I don't believe they think they are god's gift to the world, I don't believe they think at all. They just do and damn the consequences for anyone else.
gotta be result of the face culture and just plain stupidity (faulty evolutionary pathway); but understand that one does not lose as much face from the action alone as much as one would lose face for engaging in the act and acknowledging that the action was stupid/coarse/selfish/primitive. That would be a double-whammy~
if it can ever be explained (it can't) it would best be done by a member of the group we are referring to, so let's hear from the Chinese members/visitors here.
It is a cultural thing and Chinese people feel no shame.
1. Mammals that live in groups look out for each other, and behave in a way that is conducive to mutual benefit. Chinese mainlanders are the exception. They have no sense of social responsibility, and feel no compulsion to be considerate of others unless there is an obvious material benefit.
From an early age they are taught to spit in public, go to the toilet wherever they please, push in front of other people, and shout instead of talking. In China, being polite and considerate will result, respectively, in being ignored and exploited.
2. "Face" means telling lies to make people like you or to protect your own interests. It does not mean acting with integrity and dignity.
Paulberger:
i read your posts and thought, this sounds like Samsara... then i noticed you changed your avatar... i don't like change...
Errrr, hello stereotypes ! I imagine my wife reading this and ranting at the "mainlander=locust" stereotypes. I know decent people here. Yes, it's rare, yes they are silent and won't move a finger to change things, but they are here ! And now, my grain of salt (more like a small rock, slow day at work).
I agree, I saw the behaviors you mention, but I think it's a little bit more complex "Chinese do not know the feeling of shame". I saw my share of people feeling terrible after being ashamed (your partner ? a colleague ?), or deciding their action very carefully to avoid shame. So yeah, shame exists in China. However, it definitely works very differently, and yes, it shows an ugly, dark underbelly.
* The notions of public good, of civil duty are almost non-existent. It might have been there (or might not, I'm very keen to learn on this topic), but civil war(
, cultural revolution burned it to ashes if it was there. Then, nothing like a civil society ever been encouraged since the 80's. People could get rich, but society is the party, the party is the society, and that's it.
* This lack of civil society is definitely known and understood by the people with some education (ie. university). I feel that Nationalism & the "Chinese Dream" are pushed as a way to build such a civil society. Nationalism is a very poor substitute, it calls to personal emotions and insecurity. The "Chinese Dream", yes, it makes us grin.
* No such a thing as "grassroot" in China, unless there's utter desperation, the end of a dynasty.
* So there we are, a society of 1.3 billions individuals, backed in 50 years (or is that 100 ? Or more, since end of Qing was not exactly brilliant on that chapter ?) of ... neither individualism, nor sense of civism. Just an embarrassing void. What is left, well, the people you know personally. Your family, your colleagues, your fellow villagers. In the end, those are the *ONLY* things that will shape your behavior, and... your sense of shame.
* So, a sense of shame exists, but with no sense of individuality nor of society, just the nebulous group of "people floating around in my life". Now, add to this some cultural traits: face, spending energy on avoiding a problem rather than fixing it.
This is my current model of how things work in people's head in China. It's a theory under work, with holes and gaps.
mike695ca:
Of course it a genralization! Anything you say in a country of 1.4 B is gonna be a stereotype. Thats unavoidable. I know plenty of people that feel shame. My wife gets embaressed all the time, She gets so red im sure she will pass out. My friends do too. But these are the normal Chinese. The few and far between that you can relate to because they dont fit any of the stereotypes. Yes theres millions of amazing chinese people. And theres stupid, ignorant people in every country, but when the population of morons is in the 80% range?? Than I think you can start talking about these things without it being a generalization.
I would defend that 80% retard number to the death.
This thread links very well with the "Who would you punch in the face.." one.
mike695ca:
My muse if you will.......... That and the fact that I just tried to buy a coke by waiting in line like a gentleman till a fat bitch came walked in front of me, completly ignored me calling her a fat bitch, and pressured the dude behind the counter to serve her.
Robk:
Haha...
Some Chinese are masters of ignoring things. Especially foreigners, some of them don't WANT to understand ANYTHING we are saying. And I am speaking to them in perfect Mandarin that is understood but all people I encounter except "those" kinds of people.
andy74rc:
@mike: don't misunderstand the meaning of my post. I'm in first line bitching, moaning and ranting, and willing to distribute punches in the face around.
Beginning with the idiots that I have to face every morning trying to pass everybody over to take the elevator, without letting people coming out first. There's 3 of them you morons and space for everybody. Not to mention the ones blatantly ignoring ANYTHING trying to step into the elevator with a lit cigarette. Well..... till they find me.
When you see a court case reported on TV the accused is always hanging their head in shame.
When a dastardly crime is committed, the perpetrator very often hands himself in to the police because he can't stand the shame.
Lot's of shame on display out there. Lot's of examples of the powers trying to educate by example.
No doubt the focus will eventually move onto spitting and driving etc. Just need to wait a while I suppose. Bit of a shame really, because the East will be in danger of becoming a clone of the West. Might as well go home when that happens 
In the meantime, I too will enjoy my daily rants about inconsiderate and selfish people 
Visco8:
When you see a court case reported on TV the accused is always hanging their head in shame.
When a dastardly crime is committed, the perpetrator very often hands himself in to the police because he can't stand the shame.
Lot's of shame on display out there. Lot's of examples of the powers trying to educate by example.
Hey ~ do you really believe in that propaganda bs? The Chinese Legal System (such as it is) must be one of the worst in the world.
The reason he's hanging his head is..he's thinking that these fuckn guys have done alot worse than me, & they are judging ME??
Why do you see so many 'criminals' plead guilty in this country? They all plead guilty! No one, even for petty crimes APPEALS !! Cos..there's no point.
It's not nothing to do with FACE, its all about their BS pretend justice
ScotsAlan:
Try reading between the lines. I may not get to the point bluntly because I am aware of where I am posting from.
Anyhow, the TV often has displays of wailing and gnashing of teeth from people who are ashamed to find themselves in the judicial system.
That's a fact. Anything beyond that is speculation..... 
I just saw someone pull change lane in front of a bus. Or not quite in front. Broken mercedes and scratched bus was the result. I am pretty sure the guy thought this was all on the bus driver.
There's "face" and "shame", but it's different from what you'd think back in the West. You see a businessman with his Gucci purse, gold chains, and outfit that costs more than your monthly salary. He's screaming into a cell phone while smoking under a "No smoking" sign. He's rich and powerful, therefore he's high status. Manners aren't high status. Only the poor and low status need to think about how they act. He's above reproach.
The woman who nearly kills you tearing down the sidewalk in her BMW while honking at pedestrians doesn't feel shame for breaking multiple traffic laws. In her mind, she's better than the people she's threatening to run over, and because of her self-centered mentality, the way she treats others has no reflection on her own status.
mike695ca:
i think your mistaking chinas social problems with your own envy. As a driver I can say that they are ALL bad. Not just BMW drivers looking down at everyone else. In fact richer drivers are generally much better, its the old VW jettas that havent changed in 25 years and those grey vans that will kill you. Who are they looking down on?? These rich people with their education and upbringing are far less likely to whip it out and piss on the street, though im sure it happens. Sure there are rich farmers ( bao fa hu) but for the most part, its important for rich people try to at least appear civilized and western, so I couldnt disagree with you more. Most people that have been here a while get most frustrated with the migrant workers and farmers all over the place. Im not sure where your getting this.
Mateusz:
Well, you thought incorrectly.
I didn’t say that BMW drivers were worse than drivers of other vehicles, but I wanted a brand name, and BMW came to mind. No need to feel persecuted for your choice of luxury car. I would have to really disagree that rich Chinese drivers are better, though. A sense of entitlement doesn’t make for the most polite and conscientious of people.
I would like to see some proof of how rich people are better mannered, since I have never seen it. I’ve seen very well dressed people with all the trappings (gold watches, chains, purses, etc.) toss trash aside, smoke where they shouldn’t, and generally behave as though the rules don’t apply to them (which, often enough, they don’t, given they can bribe their way out of any unpleasantness). You can see this from the articles about wealthy Chinese students who get in trouble abroad (getting into car accidents, or attempting to bribe school officials) because they assume they can act abroad how they do at home.
I’m getting this from the 2+ years I’ve lived in Nanjing. Incidentally, I’ve seen plenty of entitled and privileged Chinese try to blame everything on the poor. China is a very hierarchical society, where the rich are seen, and see themselves, as simply “better” than poor people, and act like it. The rudeness, comes from this sense of superiority.
I’m not sure where you get your statistics.
mike695ca:
Im not sure you understand what statistics are as there where no numbers anywhere.
As someone that has lived here for so long I find it difficult to believe that you would be so..... i cant think of an adjective as im not trying to attack you personally. . Are you implying that poor people in China, are much more civil and polite? That the majority of people that are causing so many of the problems that we often complain about on this site are the rich and wealthy?
If you read my reply, i made a point to say that ALL chinese are a cause. I even used capitals.... While I am not doubting the existence of a tiered society. I understand that there is. Your answer is insinuating that poor "regular" chinese feel shame while its only the rich that walk around doing whatever they please with no feeling. 1. thats just stupid. 2. It makes you just seem jealous. You specifically mentioned how the rich blame the poor for their problems as you are doing the same thing in reverse. Your blaming the rich. Its insane.
mike695ca:
Also, its unfair to use articles of rich chinese behaving badly abroad.... the ONLY chinese abroad are the rich ones. Can you imagine poor chinese in your home country? Twitter would absolutly explode wth pictures of babies shitting in subway cars.
Mateusz:
statistic |stəˈtɪstɪk|
noun
a fact or piece of data obtained from a study of a large quantity of numerical data: the statistics show that the crime rate has increased.
• an event or person regarded as no more than such a piece of data (used to suggest an inappropriately impersonal approach): he was just another statistic.
I mean, you could have just made assertions based on the fact that you think poor people are not as good as rich people… but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you got your assertions from somewhere.
The adjective you are looking for might be “aware”, since I observe the behaviors of people around me.
I’m stating that the poor people are conditioned to be more polite and civil, since they must be. The rich are told they can have anything they want, they get what they want, and can bribe their way out of legal trouble. The poor can’t. Of course there will be poor people being rude and uncivilized, but they can’t get away with illegal behavior as well as rich people can. If there is a fine for littering, a poor person is more worried about paying it than a wealthy person.
Well, congratulations on using capital letters in some situations (which is odd, since you seem to have a shaky grasp on the use of capitalization, as well as spelling, grammar, and punctuation).
Calm down. There is no need to get defensive. It’s statement of facts how they exist in China. Rich people get away with more than poor people. This backed by research http://www.fastcodesign.com/1673129/money-turns-people-into-jerks-says-science Incidentally, if you didn’t read that all the way through, one of the findings was “Drivers of expensive cars were three to four times more likely to break the law, and not stop in a pedestrian intersection.”
It’s unfair to cite examples? The only way to defend a point is to call someone stupid and accuse them of being jealous of your money? Sorry, I prefer a different argument style.
If you want to continue to blame the poor people for social ills, and assert how they are so much worse than their wealthier social betters, then find something substantial to back it up.
mike695ca:
Well your article doesnt work, but from the title, it seems to be american? Or a general world view. I give you this
http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat13/sub86/item1722.html
A detailed article specifically about china. some highlights.
Many accidents involved pedestrians by followed bicycles and motorcycles. ( poor people)
The high numbers of traffic deaths are blamed on the large number of inexperienced drivers, treacherous road conditions, reckless driving, and poor quality of motor vehicles. Almost two thirds of the of traffic fatalities occur on rural roads. ( poor people!)
Not even the rural roads part , which alone should be enough to make you shut up. But also the part about poor quality vehicles?? poor people, new drivers??? oh could that be that chinese domestic car industry has grown to the largest in the world? Why ?because now the poor regular people can buy chinese domestic cars.
aware... would seem fitting if you had a brain. Ignorant seems better.
I would love to have an argument with you any day about this issue as i truly love to be right all the time but you lost me when you attacked my grammar. Dont get me wrong Im not offended, in fact your quite right. But over my years on this site, I have found that people you attack grammar on an informal forum , generally dont have much else going for them. So you have lost all credibilty and therefore your opinion means nothing.
Good day to you sir!
Mateusz:
The article works fine. If there’s an issue, it’s not with the article.
How does that prove your assertion about manners and income? Pedestrians are hurt and killed… that doesn’t mean that money makes you better.
Why should that make me shut up? Your statistics should back up your arguments, not be unrelated.
I have found that people who resort to ad hominem attacks (name calling in lieu of refutation) generally have little to say. Your poor writing skills don’t invalidate your arguments. They do, however, make it harder to get your point across (and suggest a lack of care put into your writing).
And a good day to you, sir! I said good day!
Yes Chinese people are shameless. And I am British Chinese myself. Go to Hong Kong if you want to find the more civilised breed of Chinese.
I live in a large apartment building. Everyday I see trash thrown in the elevators ALTHOUGH there are trash cans outside EVERY elevator on EVERY floor. I even see people throw trash on the floor even though there is a trash can 5 metres away from them.
Mother's believe that they have a license to allow their child to defecate anywhere. I saw a mother once hover their baby over a trashcan in a supermarket rather than taking them to the toilet. Unbelievable since I think there is a toilet in China every 100 metres in all directions, within a city of course.
Yesterday I was eating lunch when some cunt next to use was watching some hong kong drama on his phone at full volume. I wanted to grab his phone and fling it out the window.
Oh this is China. Live with it or leave. Just wait another 50 years maybe then Chinese people will be civilised.
mike695ca:
agreed, I love Hong Kong, not even the same area code as far as people.
Why do they leave trash in bags outside their doors? Do they think theres room service??
I know a lot of good Chinese people who have morals , which they are the minority.
Yes i have to agree there is a lot of wrong being done, most of it the way they are taught.
education starts when they are children. the older they are the harder it is to change.
i have been taught you see a problem instead of being a critic help solve the problem. That may be old school , but it works.. at least for me it does.
My opinion any ways, why add green material to a fire , it just creates an additional problem.(those of you who grew up in the country should know what that means)
