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Q: 5+ Years and only survival level Chinese. Okay, or not?
As an expat on this site, I am in awe of the number of expats here who profess a level of fluency in Mandarin.
I have been in this country for over 5 years now and I only have survival level Mandarin skills. Its not that I don't want to learn the language, it is because I just simply don't have the time. After working 10-12 hours per day, spending time with my family, etc... there is little free time left.
And the last thing I want to do during my precious free time is study. So my question is this: Is it socially acceptable among the expat crowd to live in China for a long time and not speak the language?
I dont think that many expats speak fluently
I admire anybody how can get through the day and just have a go.
The former PM of Aus was not my favourate person but shit ,
I wish I could speak half as well . you can only do as everybody else and do your best and be comfortably
Shining_brow:
Bah humbug!!!! First PM eva to realise that some multi-national companies were ripping up our natural resources, and didn't pay a cent in tax for it (unlike every other Australian business) and sending BILLIONS of dollars to overseas companies and people ... and said "enough - now you have to follow the same rules as everyone else!" What's bad about that??
For me , the most important thing is, How much can i get done or achieve on a daily basis using my new adopted language. Thats what counts, cos if i cant buy food , i starve, i die, And pay bills etc etc all the stuff we do back home. Then second is using the language to express myself within the context of inter-personal relationships. 2 years later and i'm still learning as if it was day 1 by that i mean with the same motivation. Some foreigners here get real anal about using chinese, like will correct you, or show off how much they know like ordering for everyone at the table.Peeves me off , just because you can speak fluently doesn't give you the green light to be a douche.
I had a one on one teacher for a few months, but much of my Chinese I've learned has come from me having no shame in speaking Chinese and because I've willingly put myself in the most rediculous situations just for the sake of improving my Chinese. From working in advertising, to helping promote bars (not expat bars,) to taking calls as a receptionist for a Chinese company, to taking foreigner friends to the hospital. Everything has really come full circle. I guess the fact that I ONLY speak Chinese to my girlfriend, although her English isn't too bad, has helped a lot too.
I think the biggest way for a foreigner to lose face is when he comes across a foreiner, living in China for a much shorter period of time and speaking Chinese with all of those around him/her. Really puts the "I'm a rock star here!" type of foreigner quickly to shame.
Xpat.John:
So, if I understand your reply correctly, anyone who doesn't speak the local language fluently is a delusional loser? Please correct me if my interpretation is incorrect.
AdrianG4:
No, what I meant is that if you can speak fluent Chinese, it's easy to put "those" foreigners to shame. Not everybody knows Chinese and that doesn't make or break a person in China -- never said that -- but if you're at a dinner table or at a bar with a foreigner that has let this whole, "I'm white in China" thing get to his head, it's always fun to watch their ego take a bit of a drop.
Xpat.John:
Ah. Okay. It is just that I have had that exact attitude from other expats I have met. You know, the whole "If you can't walk, talk and breathe Chinese, then you have no business being in this country" attitude. I admire anyone who has the time and intelligence to be fluent in the language, I really do. Well... Except for one of my closest friends. He was a natural linguist and could literally learn languages just by listening to it being spoken for a few hours. In a matter of about 3-6 months, he would be fluent without ever taking a class or reading a book. He spoke something like 10 languages fluently and about 10 more on a conversational level. I really hated him for that amazing skill. :)
derek:
I, like a few of the guys who have been here for 5+ years am able to take care of myself even though my Chinese level is very low. I never feel like I lose face when a friend or colleague speaks some Chinese at the table or in other places. And Adrian, please, don't think that we will all lose our "Rock Star" mentality because of something like the level of Chinese we know. The guys with this personna can't be stopped anyways. Honestly, I venture to say that this phrase doesn't exist too much outside this forum and possibly your circle of superfriends.
It is fair enough that you don't have the time. If you were a teacher or a student I don't think it's so ok because of all that free time. But you seem to be working alot of hours every day.
Xpat.John:
haha, if I was a student and I didn't know the language after 5 years, then I would be a sad puppy indeed. And teachers seem to have a lot more free time on their hands than I do. I guess I just get a little tired of having expats (mostly teachers, no offense) look down on me because of the amount of Mandarin I have learned during my stay here.
Most expats I know who are fluent did a course at some point. I've been here three years and I can have basic conversations and stuff like that. I can engage in pub talk and such, but, for instance today I went shopping and couldn't figure out how to ask a guy "Do you want me to leave a deposit and when you bring the item in I'll come and pick it up."
It's weird you think you're doing okay but then you get hit with a curveball cause you suddenly can't communicate a simple question.
Anyway, I got to my level by simply speaking it with friends and the wife. I just started a proper course so I'm looking forward to it. But, yeah most people I know who are totally fluent did a least one three months intensive course at some point.
Xpat.John:
Out of that sentence I would have been able to only say, "Do you want me". The rest would have had me scrambling for my phone so I could translate the question I needed to ask. After 5 years I am still trying to remember how to say, "Where is the toilet?" haha
philbravery:
Im about the same as you when I finaly get to stay I want to take a formal course. Its funny I understand most things my wife says but a stranger could say the exact same thing and I might not understand. I personaly think the biggest thing is you need is to realy want to lean and like learing by the same token you should not be treated as a lepper because you dont know how to ask a simple question
I have been married 5 years to a Chinese wife,we have kids i work everyday,so same as you last thing i want to do is study,my wife is also qualified Mandarin teacher to us loawi,we go out together its just easier for her to buy order things etc,maybe in a couple of years take out 6 months to really try to learn.so yes its ok
I've only met 2 expats in 5 years who's Mandarin I would consider fluent. ! had 20 years in country and the other was a trained translator for Uncle Sam.
In Geneva, for instance, you have lots of American and British expatriates who can spend 10 years working there without even being able to talk small sentences in French.
So five years in a country with such a different culture and language, it's still alright to be just conversational.
I spent two years studying Chinese at my university, another two years here in Shanghai and another five years to live with my wife in China, I have translated some movies from Chinese into French.....and when I go to buy some foods in a supermarket, I often can't even understand what's written on a label. The worst is when I read my 2 year old son books, there are still some characters or words that I don't know.
Chinese more than any other language is so demanding that if you stop studying even for one week, it looks like starting again from scratch.
So don't worry......we still have a lifetime to learn it.....little by little. 慢慢走 
I have been here almost 5 years and my Chinese is still I guess Zero, I didnt come here to learn Chinese I came to teach English , I have a full time Chinese assistant so never had the urge to learn. I dont feel bad because I cant speak after that time, why should I ?
kchur:
Because you promote the stereotype of foreigners being complete idiots?
mrpopular:
So who died and made you god ..........each to his own if you cant put positive remarks shut the f.....................up
im in the same boat. Over 4 years in China and I know the basics. I really dont have time to dedicate to learning the language. I have a secretary and an assistant who I call when needed, otherwise, I get by fine by pointing!
I consider myself better than the Chinese and want to change everything about Chinese culture, and hope to do so with the shining example I, white Jesus, set for the filthy uncivilized brutes.
However, I refuse to study Chinese and expect 1.3 billion people to go through the arduous task of learning a completely unrelated language, solely so they can receive my great wisdom.
Also, I love making fun of Chinglish. Ha ha stupid Chinese. Can't even learn English.
Xpat.John:
What and/or who are you talking about?
Mirror + you = Never met?
Dwan744:
I agree... somewhat with Kchur's suggestion, but I would like to point out that in our native countries there are also people who live the same situation. I know in Canada that there are many immigrants who have lived there for 5+ years and speak little to no English (French pfftt, who cares about that). Do we have the same expectations or opinions for them?.
IMNSHO - yes, it is bad! (depending on your definition of 'survival').
As Dwan said just above me, you would expect someone living in your country for that long to have a better grasp of your language than merely 'survival' - especially if they are married to a local and have a couple of kids with them (for those who do!)
I've only had a few classes, but I pick up from my Chinese friends and students in classes, and when I need to say something and someone provides it. Those classes added almost nothing to my skills. I've only been here for a little over 2 years, and I only just finished my Master's degree, so I haven't had the opportunity to do any in-depth study... but I'm still 'survival' level... in another 3 years, I'd be horrified with myself if I was still at that level!
You don't learn a language by 'studying' it... you didn't learn your native tongue that way, you're not going to do it effectively for any others. You get language skills by using it! Most local students of English are crap at it, because they don't use it - even after 10 years of study.
If you are really interested in learning it, you're in the perfect environment - you're with someone, you ask them "how do you say...?", listen, copy, use... You listen to conversations, and try to pick up words. You guess what ppl are trying to say, and answer them...
Unless you're here under duress, yeah, you should be learning the language... somehow!
I agree, learning the local language is important. And yes, I would expect someone living in my country for 5 years to have a better understanding of the language than I do of Chinese.
But learning a language is easier to do when you are a student, or a teacher who has lots of time on their hands to hang out with locals and interact with them.
For someone who is here to do international business, my time is consumed with that. I don't have time to learn Chinese to a level where I can communicate abstract concepts to employees. This is why I have translators working for me.
At home, communication is key, and since my wife is fluent in English that is our language of choice.
For me survival level means being able to get around, get what I need and communicate simple concepts and ideas. My vocabulary is probably limited to about 300-400 words which meets my everyday needs.
I suppose if I didn't have a support system here (wife, translators, assitant, etc...) I would have a much better grasp of the language than by necesity. But that isn't the case for me.
Learning Chinese is not a priority for me. Providing for my family, is.
Shining_brow:
True, and understandable. But, since you asked the question in the first place... What language are your children learning? What language do they use to talk with their mother? And to the rest of their local family? They didn't 'study' Chinese - they slowly absorbed it, using little by little. They don't need abstract concepts to do simple tasks. We humans master the majority of our language skills in the first 6 years of life - remembering that we don't talk for about the first year or so. After that 6 year period, we basically just add vocabulary and style. All the basics of grammar, and of daily life vocabulary, is done and dusted. And, in that period, not only are we learning vocabulary, but also learning to associate words with concepts. We, as adults, already have that faculty, we have those concepts. So, since I suspect you'd like to be better with your Chinese, but don't have the time to be a full-time (or part-time) student and do all those sentences and stuff.... don't! Just absorb it - Ask your wife "How do you say...??" Read the kids's books (presuming they're in Chinese) - or, get the kids to read to you... Don't try to 'understand', just imitate. That's what we did when we learnt our native language. You won't be chatting like a native about international air-freights anytime soon - but you'll be using idioms and metaphors more like a native a lot sooner :) (ie, get your grammar and basics from your family, get the work stuff from your colleagues)
