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Q: Is anyone else getting tired of how fast and loose the word "racist" is getting thrown around?
It occurred to me while reading some of these questions and answers that the word "racist" has lost almost all semblance of the same meaning that it used to when I lived in the U.S. In the U.S. (and other countries with lots of immigrants), the judgment of an individual or group based wrongly on his/her/their race a.k.a. "racism" is very applicable, since there are many people who are of the cultural majority but a racial minority and therefore skin color often reflects hardly anything at all about one's personality. That, however, is RARELY true in China, where, despite the wide range of personalities, the vast, vast majority of people who are racially Chinese are ACTUALLY culturally Chinese, and culture is often a very useful tool by which to help define a person. In a recent thread someone implied the question "Why are Chinese bosses so stupid?" was racist, but unless he/she meant specifically "bosses who simply look Chinese", then the question is not racist at all. "Culturalist" maybe, but unlike to race, it's much less error-prone to judge someone by the culture in which they grew up. Obviously, culture shouldn't be not the sole barometer of a person either, but I think if people would stop confusing "racism" with cultural judgments then people wouldn't get offended so easy and we could have more rational discussions.
Skyoo, I agree completely with you. This term has gone "viral" around here to speak and what seem like the endless discussion on a very static subject preclude discussion of a lot more interesting items and probably dissuade a good amount of members and potential members. Your comments on culturalist vs. racist are well worth pondering. Thank you for the post.
Ironically, I think its pretty stupid to generalise and say "Why are Chinese bosses so stupid?". Maybe 'narrow minded bigot' might be more appropriate than 'racist' in this and other cases?
snowballeffect:
Thanks crimo, you're obviously a really intelligent guy. I''m humbled. Aside from that I guess its quite fitting that you comment against this answer.
snowballeffect:
Sorry, spoke too soon,
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/generalisation
Back to school me thinks.
its easy to misunderstand something when reading it, its much easier to understand the real meaning when its actually said out loud with tones, lets not forget tones can change the whole meaning, in some cases writing something can have multiple meanings. and yes that sentence is very narrow minded and stupid, dont blame people for being offended
Here we go again, I've done this before but....
First lets look at the definition of racist:
"
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race."
Source - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racist
Now, lets look at the definition of 'race'"
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
Source - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/race
So therefore Chinese is a 'race'. Therefore if you (or anyone else) make a statement that infers or directly says people from one nation are superior to people from another nation, that can be deemed as racist. The example you stated "Why are Chinese bosses so stupid" clearly infers that the poster thinks ALL Chinese bosses are stupid and that he / she doesn't think other (non Chinese) bosses are similarly stupid, ergo he / she was making a distinction of superiority based purely on race. That is racism.
Edit: The problem here, in my opinion, is that so many people are asking questions and saying or inferring that every single Chinese person is the same, e.g. Why are Chinese ....., all they have to do to make it a genuine cultural question is make that same question Why do so many Chinese ......
Just think about the question you pose, before you pose it, avoid open racist questions and avoid sweeping generalisations and most of the problems will disappear.
snowballeffect:
Good work Huge, yes I remember you posting something like this a while back.
Yeh, kind of hard to keep up with your wordy account of my post or definition of racism, but I did suggest that Yian, a poster whom I have no quarrel with, was being a tad hypocritical in asking why so many ex-pats defend racist behaviour as cultural differences, when he had in fact made a post asking the question, 'Why are Chinese bosses so stupid?'
Whatever the definition of racism is (though i've noticed Hugh G has made a clear post defining the word) i'm quite certain that to ask such as question as why the bosses of any given country are stupid would be taken by citizens of that country as a hugely negative racial slur. If I asked the question 'Why are American bosses so stupid? i'm sure a number of people on this forum would take offense, as one or two of them are possibly American bosses themselves, and so I would be quite directly labeling them as stupid. There are like a billion or so people in this country, right? So a large number of them must be bosses. Now i've been here for the last 7 years and i've only had 4 bosses. One of them was absolutely great and I still count him as a good personal friend, another was ok though unremarkable and unmemorable, another was also fine but absent all the time, and the most recent was a dumb bitch. Pretty much what i'd expect of a cross section of bosses back home in England.
What did surprise me about your question was that you should choose my comment as the one to suggest as being fast and lose with the term racism, when in the very post you saw it in the poster himself (sorry again Yian, this is not an attack) suggested that pointing out that someone was a foreigner and saying hello to them in the street was racist. Now if 'that' is an example of racism, then all I can say is 'long live racism'.
skyooo:
Alright so I didn't look at the post you commented on very clearly, just yours. Not super fair of me, but then again I just needed one example of this phenomenon and I wasn't trying to say that one person was right and the other wrong in that particular argument.
For the record, I also have problems with the question "Why are Chinese bosses so stupid?". It's a wild generalization, for sure. I just don't think it should be labeled "racist." As Hugh G. pointed out, the Chinese "民族" does constitute a race, but my point is that it often quite reasonable to make an assessment based on the fact that someone is Chinese, because it is so much more than a race as we tend to define it in the West. It doesn't deserve to be mentioned in same breath as traditional anti-Semitism or good ol' American anti-black racism. I just think it's a dangerous word that's easier to dish out than it is to take.
mArtiAn:
Honestly, I don't really get your argument. You're suggesting that the term racism is insulting when used in relation to the Chinese because it doesn't take into account the variety within the Chinese culture and so becomes a double whammy just by using it? Is that right? Sounds like a catch 22 of semantics.
skyooo:
I meant that "racist" is too severe a term for comments like "Why are Chinese bosses so horrible" because that refers to a cultural product. Then I said I don't agree with said comment either, but only because it is an overgeneralization, not because it is "racist".
Here's another example: If someone says, "Chinese mothers are terrible to their children," I would disagree on the grounds that I know many Chinese women who are very good mothers, not because it's racist. There's absolutely nothing about having a Chinese face that could possibly make you a bad mother (that would be racist), but there are many things about being culturally Chinese that could potentially make you a bad mother (not racist). That's the difference.
Hugh G. has pointed out that dictionary definitions of race include shared history and nationality and thus are not limited to genetic similarity. If this is the case, and racism thus extends to the pre-emptive judgment of persons based on their "nationality", then please, call me a racist because I do that five times before breakfast.
many people do not understand what racism means. they just copy and paste from second rate dictionary sources. racism is depriving sb from another race of a right(
simply because of their race, or viewing them as inferior simply because of their race.
race is completely separate from nationality which is why longman and websters do not use nationality in the definition of race. race has to do with similar physical features and on a smaller scale ethnic group. there is no such thing as the chinese race. there is the Han race (ethnic group) .
another thing people ignore when throwing the word racism around is context.
example "chinese drivers are awful" anyone with a functioning brain knows that i'm referring to mainland chinese drivers. and this is a statement based on observations. it is not an attempt to put a race of people down. if i said "asian drivers are bad drivers" it still is not racism, for 2 reasons. it is based on observations. and more importantly, it is a generalized statement. part of the definition of a generalization is "not true in all situations, but more likely than not" let me put that mathematically, >50%. so when making a generalized statement you do not need to specify "not all" it is included in the definition.
2 reasons why someone will throw around the term racist. 1, they can't muster a logical counter argument. 2. they truely have no clue as to what a racist is. this is because in many western countries we have become overly sensitive, especially in america.
to be cont'd
The problem is there are a few people on this site who call anyone who criticizes China even remotely racists.
Don't like the spitting...racist...don't like the scamming...racist...don't like rudeness...racist...yadayadayada.
It is simply a tool they use to "harmonize" this site so all we do is discuss only good things about China for fear of being called...you guessed...a racist.
I see the usual 'replies' are abundant.
Don't like the dictionary definition of racism just make up your own!
Well if you don't like that dictionary how about:
Oxford Dictionary:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/race--2
a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group: we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then
No? Don't like British dictionaries?
Try Websters:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racisma belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
2a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
It's the oldest trick in the book, don't like the message attack the messenger, its a logical fallacy, an ad hominem attack, you cannot dispute the definitions so you attack the dictionary as being 'second rate'.
I am NOT trying to stifle discussion, what I am trying to do is stifle RACISM as I (and most right minded people) find it abhorrent. If you want to discuss cultural differences then fine, go right ahead, I have my problems with many things in China, but I don't often come out with sweeping generalisations accusing the whole race of being, stupid, spitting, lazy or anything else for I have the honesty to realise that many of the Chinese do NOT fit that label.
snowballeffect:
Again, well said. Lets hope the Oxford English Dictionary is good enough for them.
I guess its hard for some people to admit what they are, while the others who try and excuse their behavior only compound the problem.
thedude:
Snowball...I don't defend racists.
Quite to the contrary I have zero tolerance for it and when I see it on this site I usually get quite uncharacteristically verbally violent.
What I have issue with is people that sling that term on people for little else than criticizing certain aspects of China or Chinese people.
If an expat website forum was not designed for discussing a wide range of concerns..then what the hell would it be designed for?
There is a GIANT difference between spouting frustrations and spewing genuine racism.
Hugh.G.Rection:
thedude, I agree with you, indeed frequently I refrain from making accusations of racism because I find the offence totally abhorrent and so making such accusations for 'minor' infringements merely dilute the accusation when it is richly deserved.
Instead, what I ask, is that people stop using sweeping generalisations because, they are by the defintions in the dictionaries racist, even if I and others don't often call them such.
If you want to ask, for example, "Why do the Chinese spit in the street?" That clearly infers that the questioner is of the opinion that ALL Chinese spit in the street, what is more depending on what else is being said it often follows that the questioner thinks his / her people don't do this and so are superior, ergo racism. However, if instead the original question was "Why do so many Chinese spit in the street, is there a superstition or other reason?", 'we' are now discussing culture (of spitting) and bringing in perhaps a historical / educational aspect. The latter wouldn't be racist or even a sweeping generalisation because the original statement has been qualified.
snowballeffect:
Dude, I'm lost, I hadnt read your answer until now. I was merely generalising about racists and their advocators.
thedude:
Hugh...I understand your argument but I think of it more in practical terms.
I have witnessed hard core ignorant genuine racism many many times...and not on a forum.
You can use your literal dictionary definition all you want to solidify your point but being politically correct to obsession is not a practical response.
There are different levels of ignorance but this is a website for expats from all over the world that all have different opinions and beliefs and personalities.
As you have repeatedly pointed out...not everyone shares the same opinion but likewise...one is entitled to it.
Hugh.G.Rection:
thedude, I absolutely defend your right (and anyone elses) to hold an opinion, free speech isn't free unless people are free to say things I find insulting diabolical and even abhorrent. I will still defend your right to say them.
All I ask is that IF you ARE making a racist statement, then expect it to be pointed out, by those of us who find such statements distatesful, if you (or anyone else) doesn't mean to be racist try and be careful with the language you use, that is all.
Racism is a point of view that people are entitled to hold, just as are opposing views.
thedude:
My point is that the label of racist is subjective in practical terms and what you may consider racism is not what everyone else considers it is.
Opinions are like noses...we all got one but they are all different.
Dictionaries will never define perspective.
Hugh.G.Rection:
thedude, I understand your point, I disagree with it but I understand it. If you give an inch they'll take a mile is an appropriate idiom for this.
Once you concede that certain comments are not racist, then the 'real' racists will push the boundaries further. The logical end result is that words and ideas we had hoped had been eradicated from our ofttimes shameful past, re-emerge as acceptable mainstream opinions.
thedude:
OK...then what do you consider to be prime examples of racism on this site?
Please provide links.
Let us all have a say.
Hugh.G.Rection:
No, thedude, I'm not going to point out individual cases, as I don't think that is an appropriate action at this time. I think we all know what I mean.
Think of it this way, if every time someone asks or says "The Chinese...." if you swapped Chinese with 'Americans' or 'Blacks' or 'Indians' would you / they be offended and would it be considered racist, if your answer is yes, then you'll have all the examples you need.
thedude:
If you want to really define the term racism then you need to show examples....nothing else will do...unless you are generalizing just as you have blamed others here of doing.
Who do you define as a racist here and why?
Hugh.G.Rection:
I refer you to the definitions at top of this post, (and the other one in this thread) if you make a post that infers superiority of one race over another, then that post is racist.
That's what I love about the English Language (and I assume most others are similar), the meaning of the words and terms are quite clearly defined.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Ok thedude, just one, I won't post the link or refer to the poster, but here is a cut and paste post from this site
"No, THEY DON'T!!!!!!!!!!! And, THEY WOULDN'T GIVE A DAMN ANYWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like the ******* South Koreans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Chinese would just start spouting some nationalistic,arrogant 'woe is Chine-aaaaaaahhhhhh'..play the victim..point the finger B.S. like they ALWAYS DO!!!!!! SELFISH,SELF-CENTERED B*******! :( "
Now if you don't see THAT as racist, there really is little hope for you.
thedude:
Actually no. The english language is highly subjective.
Just as one can emphasize a certain scripture to suck certain people into their cult the same can be said of this broad english term.
Once again you refuse to define your definition of racist. You are generalizing and judging without proof.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Not generalising at all, I have given not my but THE definition of racism, and that is the definition I apply.
I don't write the language, I just teach and use it.
thedude:
Ok.....I know who it is and that is still subjective.
Why do you take such offense with someone who has clearly had bad experiences with certain people.
This is also the same person who wishes to obtain a new job and remain in China. Why do you assume that people who criticize China hate it here.
This forum is an outlet.
I might not have made it here as long as I did without this outlet.
Hugh.G.Rection:
I don't care if the person has had extreme experiences or not, that is not the point. You asked me to give you an example of a racist post. That is most definitely racist and is racist against TWO races, the Chinese AND the South Koreans.
You can try to justify individual racist posts as much as you like, at the end of the day they are still racist, whether justified or not.
If that poster made that remark using his own name in the UK in public he would be arrested for racist offenses, absolutely no doubt.
thedude:
Actually this poster made valid albeit subjective opinions based on experience.
Yes I agree they were done in poor taste but labelling this racist is rash and opinion based.
If I call a French-Canadian a fucking pea soup eating wine drinking frog...then yes...that is racist. He is just pissed off and spouting.
The entire point of this thread is to point out the difference.
Hugh.G.Rection:
The prejoratives are not the racist part of that post, and that is something many people miss. This poster repeatedly says 'they' in reference to a whole nation, inferring that they are all what he says, THAT is the racism, he is saying a whole race of people
"THEY WOULDN'T GIVE A DAMN ANYWAYS"
'They' i.e. this poster is saying no-one in China would 'give a damn' that is plain and simple racism.
"The Chinese would just start spouting some nationalistic,arrogant....."
Again 'The Chinese' so this poster is saying EVERYONE in China would spout some nationalistic whatever, again racism plain and simple.
"like they ALWAYS DO!!!!!!"
Not happy with tarring an entire race with one action the poster now says they all do it all the time.
The above are prime examples of racism, and if you think it defensible, you are opening yourself up to the accusations Snowball made earlier, of being a defender of racists.
thedude:
OK Hugh I understand your point and in many ways it is valid.
But why are you sooooooo defensive about China?
I am almost married myself to a Chinese woman yet I can and always will find fault in China and Chinese culture just the same as I do for my own country. I think you have been here too long and become too entrenched. Dialogue creates debate and dialogue instigates change.
At least I am fortunate to be back and forth enough to have a broader perspective.
I have no doubt that if I was immersed year round I would think differently.
Hugh.G.Rection:
I don't think I am overly defensive of China. I would like to think I am defensive of all racism.
Of course I will point out racism against China as that is what I see most on this site as we are all supposed to be posting about China, i.e. China related questions, but if this was a site about Nepal I would hope I would be similarly defensive about Nepal if such posts were made.
My outlook comes not from being in China (I have only been here two years), but from the UK. In the UK we have a huge immigrant community and much to our shame we have huge and increasing racism, part of that is due to the lack of integration by parts of the immigrant community, causing an us and them attitude on those who see the immigrants as a threat. I am seriously trying to avoid that in my own small way, by integrating as much as I can (given my very poor progress with the language) and avoiding accepting racist generalisations so to avoid myself becoming subject to the 'victim mentality' that many people here appear to suffer from.
snowballeffect:
Dude, why, when you realise you are on the ropes, do you come out with 'But why are you sooooooo defensive about China?' to deflect from your impending loss? You did the same to me a few weeks back.
thedude:
Snowball...I am not on the ropes nor have I given up.
I am tired (not in China now) and I am also not an asshole.
I agree to disagree with Hugh. This is all. We could continue this back and forth for the rest of the day but what is the point?
How do you see compromise as a sign of defeat?.
Consider this a game of tic tac toe...it will never end but at least I have the common sense enough to say....ok...let's call it a day.
snowballeffect:
And anyhow, by saying 'why are you so defensive about China?', is that not backing up what Hugh is saying? You claim that you don't advocate racism but yet when Hugh explains why he feels some of the posts are racist, and why he, like others on here, endeavours to defend the Chinese peoples honour, you suddenly admit partial defeat, but, and uncunningly, change tack and come out with 'Why are you so defensive about China?'. By saying that are you not partially advocating racist comments? Just an opinion,
thedude:
Drink some more kool-aid Chairman Mao. I am going to bed.
Keep those delusional ideas floating in your head while I sleep...
crimochina:
dictionary.com is second rate to websters, longman, oxford and cambridge. and like i said it is easy to copy and paste. but do you understand what it means???
from the very definition you copy/pasted it is clear you do not know how to apply it. pointing out observations of chinese people is not racist. it is in fact the opposite. if i see someone spitting on a bus, i think it is bad behavior. i am holding him to the same standard that i hold every human being to. i do not make an excuse "he is from a lesser race, so that is normal for him" that type of thinking is racist. pulling your pants down in the middle of the street and taking a crap is bad behavior period. for any human being. pointing out that many chinese people like to spit on a bus is not racist. the very definition you copy and pasted contradicts your own actions of going around and calling people racists for complaining about various bad habits of chinese people. you fail to understand "context." we are living in china, mainland china. everyone knows taiwan and Hk are different.
anyone can copy and paste from 1st rate dictionaries. but do you understand what you are copying and pasting???
crimochina:
and making a generalization is not racist. if i said "chinese drivers do not follow the traffic laws" it is a generalization based on observations. (it does not matter if it is true or not)
generalizations can be true or false.
this would be racism. me not hiring a chinese driver simply based on that generalization.
howabout reading and understanding what you are copying and pasting?
crimochina:
Hugh: ""THEY WOULDN'T GIVE A DAMN ANYWAYS"
'They' i.e. this poster is saying no-one in China would 'give a damn' that is plain and simple racism."
I know it is difficult to understand the english language but that is what you call a generalization.
like i said previously, anyone can copy and paste but do you understand what you are copying and pasting?
generalize:a : to derive or induce (a general conception or principle) from particulars
b : to draw a general conclusion from
definition from the english learners dictionary (for english as a second language learners)
1 [no obj] : to make a general statement or form a general opinion ; especially : to state an opinion about a larger group that is based on a smaller number of people or things within that group
that is not racism jack edit: i forgot to close out the idea. you claimed lars statement means "all" chinese. the very definition of a generalization contradicts you.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Coc, perhaps you could read my post?
You know the part where I also quote Oxford dictionary AND Websters.
Yes, I do know what it means, you see I can read a dictionary, I don't make up my own definitions when the one in the dictionarIES (note the plural), doesn't suit my agenda.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Coc, YOUR cut and paste
to make a general statement or form a general opinion ; especially : to state an opinion about a larger group that is based on a smaller number of people or things within that group
Perhaps indeed it is YOU who don't understand your own cut and paste?
When you state an opinion about a larger group based on a smaller number of people or things within that group you are not being logical and because what applies to the smaller group probably does NOT apply to the larger group. Further if that opinion is based purely on RACE then it is RACIST.
It is sad to see, but not uncommon that those who are from minorities are sometimes just as racist as those from the majority.
crimochina:
hahaha i see it now. you do not know the difference between a general statement and an absolute statement.
i will educate you. a general statement is likely to be true. (not true in all cases)
what you just said is your opinion. and is not backed up by any definition
crimochina:
oh and by the way. i am not a minority group. i am a human being.
snowballeffect:
Really? Someone said you were a cybernetic organism. Living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Coc, you continue to astound us all by the incredible levels of your ignorance.
A statement about a large number of people based on some information garnered from a small number of people is a sweeping generalisation and often when it is based upon nationalistic or racial assumptions is racist.
By the way, many people would argue that there is no such thing as an absolute statement, but that is for another discussion.
I'm sorry if you don't like the truth, but it doesn't in anyway lessen the truth.
You are making another age old trick of changing the specifics of the subject, you mention absolute and general statements, I didn't I mentioned generalisations, which when linked to race are often racist.
I'm sorry to say you are, in my opinion, a total an utter racist. It is my opinion that you came to China hoping to escape from the racism you were a victim of in your home country and you were so desperate to escape that victim mentality that you have become what you once hated.
Sad, and one day you will see it, unfortunately, (for you and us) I doubt that will be anytime soon.
I pity you, I honestly do, before this discussion I really disliked you, I thought you an opinionated bully trying to 'rule' this forum. I now realise I was wrong, you are just a victim. My apologies.
I think the world you're all looking for is "enthnocentrism."
Racism vs. Ethnocentrism.
Chinese are racist in general, and most of them are ethnocentrists despite not deserving such a worldview. An enthocentrist is someone who assumes that his or her own culture and way of life are superior to every other culture.
This describes most Chinese people who use their culture as an excuse to engage in every imaginable form of idiocy, and most sane Americans. I dare say that American culture is superior to every other culture on earth, and it's a well-deserved superiority.
But the most perplexing fact is that while most Chinese are ethnocentrists, they quickly revert to the extremes of cultural relativism when confronted. Cultural relativism insists that a culture must be examined within the context of its own society. They assume us foreigners can't do that, and then they go back to thinking they're superior to everyone else.
Keep in mind that cultural relativism is used all around the world to excuse things such as genocide, infanticide and abortion of female babies, racism, and many other things wrought on by imbeciles. I'm sure if you sat down with Hitler a long time ago, he'd give you a passionate speech on why Jews need to die. Cultural relativists wouldn't even condemn it; they'd just try to find a reason to justify it from another culture's perspective.
snowballeffect:
What do you mean by 'Chinese are both racist in general'? I'm probably wrong, but do you mean the majority of Chinese people are racists?
I'm not really bothered either way, but is Western Europe not ahead of USA culturally both now and throughout history?
诸葛亮:
I made a lot of edits, and forgot to remove some redundant/strange words.
The beauty of USA, is that we have part of every culture and value system in the world, including Western Europe's. I honestly have no idea what's going on in Europe (not my area of interest), but America is a multicultural melting pot.
