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Q: Anyone else love turning the tables when it comes down to contract negotiations?
Once hated it, now I love it. After receiving offers from about half a dozen schools I've narrowed it down to two schools. Let the bidding was commence!! So far one I’ve managed to get one school to up there offer from 10,000RMB to 12,000RMB and now 13,500RMB with an apartment, a university that offers a overseas 2+1+1 program is now pitching around 14,000RMB with an apartment and my current employer who's a 2nd gen princling (and obviously detests the fact that he can lose his teacher over pay) is now talking about offering me 16,000RMB+ just to blow the other two out of the water. Anyone else love it when the employee's holding all the aces?
10 years 44 weeks ago in Business & Jobs - China
Today when my "meeting" concluded, the "leader" said, "Now that you've interviewed me, let's get on with it......".
He never had a chance from the get-go. Just the way I like it.
But never lose sight of the fact that the employer will always hold the biggest ace of all - your visa! Chinese people hate foreigners getting one over on them so watch your back. They might turn the tables on you.
Lord! 1,6000 per month with apartment
. That's too much! I hope I was born in western countries even if my parents were sorrow for such thinking.
Kaiwen, true.
Thing is, I have also been re-approached today to work for Futian District Government Agency in the Public Schools. Clearly, they haven't got enough teachers, and that's in Futian, SHenzhen!
At the end of the day, they have made it so much harder for teachers to come here that they have to pay a higher price now. If they won't, they will continue to be teacherless.
I have to switch my career patch, seems like 
i can start in kindergarden 
@ Kaiwen, valid point, but Carl's hit the nail on the head, schools are no longer in a position where they can pay chump change and get away with it. Decent legit teachers are getting harder and harder to come by. The way I see it, as long as you do your job and do it well, why shouldn't we be able to negotiate the best package we can get. It's times like this I'm grateful for my HR background. Some decent research into what the ESL job market is like in China and knowing how to negotiate terms with recruiters goes a long way. It's about time they upped the wages here......... A word to the wise, don't be afraid to negotiate terms, get yourself a few offers (the more the better) and let them fight it out with you acting as mediator. They won't up the offer unless they know someone will pinch you.
You are going to get more and more negotiating power if China actually continues to be a tougher enforcer of its visa policies. In the first place, without the hordes of unqualified idiots on Fs and Ls, there will be greater demand for those of us with actual qualifications and training. In the second place, without the hordes of unqualified idiots on Fs and Ls, the crap training centers that thrive on getting those idiots to dance like monkeys will circle the drain where they belong, leaving behind employers who take their staffing seriously enough to negotiate.
Part of the reason I have always stink-eyed F-visa employees is that I am generally not keen on people who trample immigration laws; still, a large part of my reasoning is also that I view F-visa cheats as a factor that drives down salaries across the board in the ESL market in China. Hopefully, a factor the Chinese are serious about cracking down on.
davidccollis:
I agree Rachel, teachers holding F visa holders have reduced the bargaining power of legit teachers. Some, (i.e the qualified but illegally working teachers) I do feel sorry for as they've been led here on the promise of a Z visa only to find that they've been given the run around. Give it a year or two and hopefully those bottom-feeder F visa 'teachers' that really have no place teaching should up sticks and go, giving us a shed load more negotiating power.
dom87:
you are speaking of qualifications... what are your qualification to teach in university? Do you have a PHD in Language/linguistic that you are worth to be called professor?
Most of these who are bitching about Ls and Fs have just a shitty bachelor degree in an easy field from a shit university.
You can talk about qualification for teaching if you teach your related field what you studied and have a higher degree / experience in the field that you are teaching than you students have
bill8899:
And Dom, I don't see anyone claiming the title of professor, so chill. If you have a bachelor's degree you are qualified in China because China says you're qualified. If you don't, you are not qualified. It's really quite simple.
dom87:
for now it is like that, yes.
I just find it rediculous how some people discriminate non native speakers if they have not even the qualification by themselves, yet they think they are worth more than other people even though most native speakers can only speak 1 language.
So speaking of the visa qualifications, you need a bachelor degree 2 years experience and a TESOL or whatever. 99% of the teachers here don't fullfill these qualifications. These days they are just highly in need of some white faces to cheat the crap out of the parents
don't get me wrong, i couldnt care less about the teaching situation in china because i am no teacher but if i ever have to send my kid to a school in china then i dont wanna see a white monkey dancing in front of the class...
davidccollis:
@ Dom, you’ve obviously jumped the gun and read too much between the lines. Let me address your bs point by point:
you are speaking of qualifications... what are your qualification to teach in university? Do you have a PHD in Language/linguistic that you are worth to be called professor?
This is a very stupid comment. No I don’t hold a PHD in language/linguistics and why would I? I’d be teaching Human Resources and Ethics. Someone with a Teaching degree, an Msc in education and a PHD in language/linguistics wouldn’t have the subject knowledge to teach them. For the record Dom, I hold a BA in Business Studies, an Msc in Management and HR (both degrees I achieved a first class honors in) from a very reputable university in the UK and a TELSO in Business English (not that the TELSO counts for much). This makes me more than capable of teaching the business subjects that the university is potentially employing me for. So don’t get all jumped up when you don't know half the facts. Your comment is testimony to that.
Most of these who are bitching about Ls and Fs have just a shitty bachelor degree in an easy field from a shit university.
Actually Dom, your English has a lot to be desired. In fact if I was going to take a stab at questioning the ability and credentials of others I would at least make sure I put together a post that made me come across as half literate.
You can talk about qualification for teaching if you teach your related field what you studied and have a higher degree / experience in the field that you are teaching than you students have
Yes, I know I can because I do. On top of my degrees I have 4 years’ experience working in the UK, two in HR and another two as a Training Officer.
I just find it rediculous how some people discriminate non native speakers if they have not even the qualification by themselves, yet they think they are worth more than other people even though most native speakers can only speak 1 language.
No one was at any point discriminating against non-natives; the opinions were aimed at those that don’t have the experience or qualifications to teach here, and that includes natives and non-natives. Re your second point, that's a bunch of shite. We are here to teach English and only English. What the hell does knowing another language have to do with your ability to perform in an ESL Teaching role?
So speaking of the visa qualifications, you need a bachelor degree 2 years experience and a TESOL or whatever. 99% of the teachers here don't fullfill these qualifications. These days they are just highly in need of some white faces to cheat the crap out of the parents
Actually I’d say the split is about 50-50. You are right in the sense they like a white face, but what I can say. None of us made these absurd requirements.
dom87:
This is a very stupid comment. No I don’t hold a PHD in language/linguistics and why would I? I’d be teaching Human Resources and Ethics. Someone with a Teaching degree, an Msc in education and a PHD in language/linguistics wouldn’t have the subject knowledge to teach them. For the record Dom, I hold a BA in Business Studies, an Msc in Management and HR (both degrees I achieved a first class honors in) from a very reputable university in the UK and a TELSO in Business English (not that the TELSO counts for much). This makes me more than capable of teaching the business subjects that the university is potentially employing me for. So don’t get all jumped up when you don't know half the facts. Your comment is testimony to that.
you teach a different field and not english so why would you need a study in languages or sort of. I was speaking of those who teach "high" level english in university. How can you teach students that will get a master degree out of your classes while you only have a bachelor degree in for example hotel management?
It is just not right. Think back at your time at the uni... your teachers were all studied in their field that they teach. I dont really care what degree you have and it wasnt a personal offense against you, but some comments aiming at illegal teachers are just stupid while the person who say that is not better at all
now coming to my english. Yes it is not perfect, no i dont even read twice what i write here because it is the internet and everyone writes how they like. If you are a native speaker then be happy and hopefully your english is good. If you talk in a different language then i will point with a finger on every single mistake you make. You were just on the lucky side that english is now the worlds language, just respect other for learning your language instead of pointing with fingers.
Btw i dont need english here in china that much, i speak chinese (wow i m in china) and in my company i speak german and with my costumers i speak japanese so yea excuse me for being not perfect in every language
davidccollis:
you teach a different field and not english so why would you need a study in languages or sort of. I was speaking of those who teach "high" level english in university. How can you teach students that will get a master degree out of your classes while you only have a bachelor degree in for example hotel management?
If you read back your reply was clearly directed at me. To answer your question, it is entirely possible in China, maybe not elsewhere but China, definitely. I say this because their English ability of most students at that age, despite them studying English for as long as 10-15 years is dreadful. The fact is, a native with a BA in Hospitality & Management who achieved a first or 2:1 could quite easily teach a Masters Course in the same subject (maybe not overseas) to Chinese because their English just isn’t up to scratch. In fact they would still have difficulties answering questions and getting points across because there skills just aren't there yet.
It is just not right. Think back at your time at the uni... your teachers were all studied in their field that they teach. I dont really care what degree you have and it wasnt a personal offense against you, but some comments aiming at illegal teachers are just stupid while the person who say that is not better at all
I probably agree with you here, it isn’t right, but you’re directing your comments at the cogs and when you should be addressing the machine. Moreover, if they impose a system like the one you’re describing then they are going to have to seriously evaluate what they are paying teachers here, because good teachers don’t work for shit. Heck in more than 60% of the ESL jobs in China, I could work in McDonalds in my home country and come out with a better basic then I would here teaching ESL. I apologise if your comments weren’t aimed at me, but it definitely read like it did hence why you got the response you did. If they weren’t aimed at me, just who were they aimed at?
now coming to my english. Yes it is not perfect, no i dont even read twice what i write here because it is the internet and everyone writes how they like. If you are a native speaker then be happy and hopefully your english is good. If you talk in a different language then i will point with a finger on every single mistake you make. You were just on the lucky side that english is now the worlds language, just respect other for learning your language instead of pointing with fingers.
I appreciate that English isn’t your first language and commend you for the fact that you know several others, but if you questioning my ability and credentials to teach English on an English speaking forum by making a comment which is in no way relative to the question posted in the first place, you should be prepared to be hit back if your English isn’t up to scratch. To put it in a tone similar to your first post; what makes you so qualified to think you can judge the teaching credentials of others?
Oh and FYI, if this was a German, Japanese or Chinese forum, then by all means you can chastise my writing ability until your heart’s content, unfortunately it’s not though.
Look, you reap what you sow, I treat others how they treat me. If you don’t like the way you’re being addressed, take a long hard look at what you wrote and try to comprehend why you’ve been communicated to the way you have.
Dang, I thought I received higher offers because I am handsome foreigner boy.
Just out of curiosity, I applied for a 10 week job in China teaching an Australian accredited course (Certificate 4 or Trade Certificate), being run by one of Australia's universities. In the past, over 500 private Australian training providers (schools) have been closed down for using unqualified teachers in foreign countries. Now, they seek those with Australian qualifications. It is to train TESOL teachers in China.
As such, I thought I would try an experiment, so applied, and demanded Australian rates (about 500 yuan per hour, 20 hours teaching per week) . To my surprise, the Chinese university agreed, and I now find myself seriously considering accepting the job. The trouble is, I just don't trust them...
I am led to believe that many western countries are now demanding that their courses delivered in China are to be delivered by properly qualified teachers. As such, I think properly qualified teachers can negotiate much higher rates in some instances.
davidccollis:
10,000RMB a week!! Get in there Traveler. It does sound a little bit good to be true, but might be worth checking out a little further. Think of how much you can save on that type of money here. Maybe you could book a holiday in China and drop by the place to make sure it's all legit.
In my experience (which may differ from everyone else's) the foreigner can win the small battles, and maybe some middle battles but the final battle will always be won by the locals.
Choose your battles carefully.
davidccollis:
I think this is sound advice. Getting want you want whilst saving the face of all involved is an art. You need to be incredibly tactful in your approach. However, I would like to add that it doesn't mean you should be a pushover and accept the first offer a school gives you. I'm sure you don't accept the first price quoted to you at the local market? You haggle. From my experience negotiating contracts (and this goes for working in the West) is very important as companies are quite content to pay you lowest they possibly can.
Generally (and this doesn't always hold true), I find Chinese schools or anyone that is trying to negotiate with you in China can be sort of looked upon as children. They are constantly trying to push the boundaries in an effort to find what they can get away with and what they can't. Sometimes you have to delicately (and occasionally firmly) draw the line in the sand. Once you've pushed back they soon realise that you can't be manipulated and they back off. If you put up with that, they will shaft you until your ass is sore. Of course once you’ve signed on, you should do your job well and if you don’t like it move on after fulfilling your contract, but before I’ve signed I’ll play the negotiating game.
When it comes to contracts, if they don't like the figures that you're talking, they can move on. It's no biggie, I've lost about 4/5 offers this way, and I'm fine with it. The ESL job market in China just isn't one of those industries which offers 'jobs for life' (not even sure these exist now) and 'opportunities for progression'. It's an industry driven by greed and profiteering outweighs all other considerations. I'm not saying we have to go down to that level, but let’s not bend over and take a shafting (while their sniggering with their counterparts about how they got one over us) for the sake of happy families.
I am pretty much in the same boat as you on deciding between 2 jobs right now. (We are real last minute) My decision is coming down to leaving some students (side jobs) that I genuinely like for more money. Makes me feel like a greedy sellout. At the same time the position is an advancement for me and about the same salary you mentioned there.
Which city is your 16k job in?
Hope we aren't fighting for the same job
davidccollis:
The 16k is being tabled by my current employer, which is in a small city in Hunan. It's huge money considering the cost of living here and the fact that its not even close to 1st or 2nd tier city, more like somewhere between the 3rd and 4th. The other offers are in Ningbo and Shanghai. What about you? PM if you don't want to post it.
