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Chinese women are fiercely loyal...... if you have even the slightest hope for a future together. If your gonna be making 10K the rest of your life and call her a gold dgging whore for asking you to at least look into better jobs? Yup she might leave.
They will also play the game. If you are at KTVs and clubs all the time, she wont say it, might even be ok with it, but shes going to assume your cheating. So she will eventually start going out as well and whatever happens happens. Such is the case when couples put love last on their list of reasons to marry.
Show her shes not going to be moving around the country living in some primary school free apartment to University dorms and she can have a chance of a normal middle class life eventually then you dont have anything to worry about. Shell stay right by your side.
I have mentioned it before, but we have seen a million sexist posts on here degrading women yet i have never seen a single post taking even an ounce.of responsibility for a breakup. Just sad man passing of their own insecurities onto all women.
Heres a.good rule in China. If she leaves you? You almost certainly deserved for it to happen long ago.
expatlife26:
yeah you I know i support answers that call for looking in the mirror over pointing the finger.
dongbeiren:
Mike, depending on how you define a normal middle class life it's certainly possible to have one on 10kk in most cities provided that half the money isn't blown at the expat bar every month. But I fully agree that most esl teachers have completely different priorities from most Chinese. But the girls should realize this too before getting married. If the girl wants a house, car, pension and financial stability but the guy wants travel, drinking and an alternative lifestyle then no, it won't work out. Most successful teacher-Chinese relationships I've seen involve girls from poor backgrounds with minimal standards or girls who think differently from most Chinese. I'm not gonna lie, my girl's family probably wouldn't have let her marry me if I didn't 1. Make a lot more than most teachers and 2. Come from a well-off family, not that the latter is anything to be proud of but it ensures more financial security than most guys can provide. The real reason most Chinese wouldn't accept the esl teacher on 12k a month isn't his salary, which is more than most Chinese make. It's that most teachers come here broke without financial support of families to buy a house and such, which is very different from most Chinese. But as usual you make some good points, albeit a little harsh so have an up vote.
mike695ca:
I agree with your point that women arent victims and should know as well. But at the same time how many expats here have you ever heard fully admit that this is the best they can do? Ive heard very few to none. They are all gonna be world leaders someday soon.
mike695ca:
So mix in expats making promises they are too lazy to ever fulfill with chinese who will never fully understand how 12K can provide so little in the first place and you have alot of frustrated women out there. Btw, long time no see man! Is the wedding finished? How was it?
dongbeiren:
Mike, no I can't say I've met anyone who says its the best they can do but I have met people who are just not that ambitious and are happy doing what they're doing for their own reasons. There are also the delusional ones who probably don't even believe their own fantasies but need something to keep them going. Wedding is in less than 2 weeks man, I'll try to post about how it goes 
Sinobear:
Here's the list and Mike's name isn't on it!:
http://www.forbes.com/china-billionaires/list/
Looks like you better pick up your game, Mike. Your woman can't expect to be with a po' boy like you especially when there's competition!
mike695ca:
@sinobear , You are mistaken again. My woman or the vast majority of women dont need billions. They just dont want to be with poor useless men. Ask your wife, she can explain those frustrations better than I ever could.
dokken:
A moment of bitterness. I wished I could have deleted this question. Giving this dickhead a chance to say I'm great, I'm not an esl teacher, I have an Audi and lots of money. This forum has anonymous users. Anybody can say anything. I m earning a million rmb a year. Tosser. You did not get sent by a company. You used to be an esl teacher. How many esl teachers suddenly become something else and earn truckloads of cash. Very few I doubt it. I could get a job teaching at an international school and earn 30000 rmb a month, which is more than you. If you get more than 10k it's not much more. I ll be earning less than 10k because I'm trying to pursue a non esl job if it comes through. I will never shit on people who come to China as an esl teacher to try to improve themselves, explore China. Who are these people you call losers who earn 10k every year. People taking a year to explore are they losers. People who want to be esl teachers are they losers. You know nothing about me yet you use it as a chance to troll. You are an absolute absolute dickhead to call people names. To judge people when it is someone who comes on a forum to say how great they are, are the biggest losers of all. Total knob jockey. I'll be coming to Shenzhen soon if you are brave enough to call me names to my face let's meet up. You won't cause you are someone who goes on the Internet to troll.
for the last time your is not you are. No way did a guy with this much education get a good job
mike695ca:
Hahaha you are a sad little man. That really pushed you over the edge huh? You you tell me, which is sadder? Someone who comes here to mess around and troll? Or someone who gets dumped and cries on the internet and then gets pissedwhen people dont wipe his tears? FYI, the reason i can talk shit on this site for years without people calling me out is that more than a few people know me personally and know that everything I say here is true. So think what you want. You tell yourself you can make good money and your not a loser. Good for you man. Ill be here in Shenzhen when you are ready. Ill even drive you to the hospital after,. Just dont get blood in my Audi. Hahaha Vag.
dongbeiren:
Dokken v. mike, hey Mike I am lying in bed bored with food poisoning, if you have a go at this guy it'll give me something to read 
mike695ca:
Haha sorry dongbei it took him like 4 days to think up that little rant. Youll be all healed up by the time he comes back. If he wants to have a go, Im down. Insecure people that those their shit on the internet are my favorite. There seems to be a never ending row of them. Been keeping me coming back for years.
dokken:
I should have just asked do you think Chinese women are loyal. Would have been a fair enough question to as you don't look to answer in a positive nice way treating people well and helping. You look to get really nasty and personal in the most cynical way. If you had said that's really sad spilling your personal info, you would have been justified. You have a really nasty prickly personality looking to assume thing things about people so you can rile them up. Hopefully your kid will not show these traits
mike695ca:
Did you ever think that you are perhaps a little sensitive? That mynanswer wasnt targeted at you at all? That your Question was just a generalized question about loyalty and I took it that way? If you saw alot of yourself in that answer and took it personally then perhaps you need to do something differently. My answer wasnt about you at all but about foreigners in general who dont take any responsibility for anything and take the lazy route by calling all women untrustworthy. As you can see by the 9-5 ( minus your downvote plus the.mystery serial downvoter for a truer sense) i maybe have perhaps had a few valid points. How can you say it was a general question about trust and then get offended by the general answers that followed?
dokken:
http://answers.echinacities.com/question/why-no-electric-bikes-westI asked about electric bikes mentioning I quite liked them and that they were good value you for money. Bear in mind this was my first post and I gave no details about myself
you said http://answers.echinacities.com/question/why-no-electric-bikes-west
you assumed 1. I was an esl teacher.
2. I was a loser
3. I had no desire to do any better.
4. I was a crackhead.
you neglected to mention you were an esl teacher before. You were not generalising. You were looking to upset somebody which is what a troll does. On any any level it's just not civil or pleasant. Esl teachers looking for advice run into you telling them they are losers. You never ever answer the main points cause you cannot. I came to China to explore and improve myself. Maybe I ll get a good wage someday without having to teach, maybe I won't. But I'll never be unpleasant and shit on people. Some of your answers are helpful and inciteful, but your trolling of esl teachers who are younger than you and trying to better themselves is not what an empathetic nice person would do. I know people who earn 1000000 rmb a year in China. They do not come on these forums and call people losers for not earning enough
mike695ca:
A year ago?! Wow man let It go. Its the internet. Im not saying you spent alot of time trying to dig that up but the fact that you even remembered it is kinda bad. In the same paragraph you said I never answer main points because I can not. And then you said I am insightful and helpful. Something doesnt fly. As for my asumptions: you are an esl teacher and in the past year i believe this hasnt changed so there is that. I have never failed to mention i taught. I even wrote a blog about it on this site. There isnt a single regular here that doesnt know that. I have mentioned it countless times. I stand by what I said. Back home people that ride scooters are hipster fucks or crackheads. Back home they are also cheap to buy and run so did you buy one there? Doubtful that you would be caught dead on one. So my point was why have your standards changed for yourself? I take it back if you are European though. How do you know how old I am? How old are you? Anyways you will find a common idea running through my comments over the years. Im not the most sensitive type and im kinda a dick but theres usually some form of logic to what I am saying. The people i get on with over the years have always been happy with themselves and they understand that the internet is not the place to go to be coddled. They might not agree with me but they are rarely offended as they are Comfortable with themselves enough to not let some stranger online effect them. The people that i usually have these hours long back and forths with all seem to be incredibly unhappy with themselves,lives and current situations. So what I say strikes a sensitive cord. The truth hurts man.
dokken:
Another assumption dude. All you can do really. I'm pretty happy.
Did I know how long I would be in China? Why the fuck would I buy a gay a3 and be proud of it? I may get a car later. The point is not back back home and I quite liked electric scooter to get to work. Your answer was straight out offensive which was what you were aiming for. YOu assumed I was an esl teacher. You said it in a derogatory way. You did not know. The engineers had electric bikes and they earn more than you. If you were not looking to troll you would not assume things. You expect people to be civil and pleasant. Underneath it all you know that you're an asshole. That's ok me too but I'm not an asshole to others. I m not an esl teacher, what would it matter if I was. Would it make easier for you to be offensive to me. Even although you were one you freaking weirdo.
mike695ca:
answers.echinacities.com/question/doing-part-time-esl-jobs-side Youve said you were a teacher many times. Maybe you are trying to do some translation stuff but it obviously isnt working as your looking for extra part time esl work. You lose all credibility when you are so easily caught in lies. Pretty pathetic. FYI i never had a problem with ESL teachers. I have a problem with the vast majority of the people who do that job. Looks like my assumption was right. You are unhappy and ashamed or you wouldnt be talking out of your ass so much and I wouldnt be able to offend you so easily. Speaking of assumptions. How do you know engineers on ebikes make more than me? Oh i got it, assholes cant make money. I mean if you cant make money NO ONE can right? Whats the point of this if you cant even be honest to yourself. You cant find stable work, you cant find a girl you can trust and your jealous of people that do what you cant. Make a life For themselves. Yup you suuuure sound happy with life.
mike695ca:
HAha oh man i just went back to look at your questions youve posted. Your life is a freaking Greek tragedy! Can you trust girls? How much is lowest I can make and survive? Why are all the jobs im applying for screwing with me? Can i work part time? Which provinces can i work in where i dont need to pay taxes? Congrats man, your screwed, you couldnt keep a job holding a billboard. But hey, at least you are happy right?
dokken:
hahaha. you re funny. hopefully im getting a job that will lead to something. presumably you had to this as well. you didnt suddenly earn lots of money. miracle change from esl into what? laughable. you don t now. you earn between 10 and 20k tops. this is because you did not get sent over by a company. everybody knows you re lying. you re o sad youve got to mention it every post you make. insecurity much? it looks suspect.
the majority of the people who do esl are good people with some losers. you probably still are an esl teacher
im pulling you up for being an idiot who goes "im not an esl teachers, all esl teachers are losers" what a knob jockey. canadians i met usually pretty decent. takes the biggest cock to write this stuff.
i had a break up, so what. im pretty happy apart from thAT. just think people should be pulled up for pathetic trolling online
also how sad is it to go and check my quetions. what a sack. you re looking for something to bitch about. enough of this you tool ill leave you to itmike695ca:
Ummm no actually I have never bounced around from job to job. I am an adult. I keep my job until i find a better one. I piss on 20K. I was making more than 20K as a teacher back in 2010. You must be a hobo. Numerous teachers on this very website make more than 20K. Granted they are normal and above you but still. Your like one of those guys flipping burgers at Mickey D's with huge dreams of being fry manager. One day ill make enough to get off welfare! Look' if you are only getting 4 or 5K a month i can hire you. You could be my cup holder or something. Although there would be a probation period. I have doubts you could manage such responsibility.
dokken:
you were an esl teacher before you got this new executive job. okm mate fair play to you
dongbeiren:
@Dokken
There's no reason to let Mike upset you. In fact, he is more than eager to get under your skin and you're playing right into it. Just take what he says with a grain or salt or see the insight that's often there under the layer of bombast.
@ Mike
I have totally recovered from the food poisoning. BTW I have a friend from Shenzhen coming to the wedding and I feel I kind of owe him a visit next year so I'll hit you up if I make it down there.
mike695ca:
@dongbei- Thats great man! You let me know, we can have a night out or go check out some beaches or something. Whatever ya want.
expatlife26:
Haha, this thread really jumped off. Howd I miss this?
Yeah, just a couple things I want to agree with as usual cause I think mike’s a good resource on these kinda things.
Definitely the thing about the billionaires list is BS, huge difference between expecting somebody to be comfortable and demanding somebody be super wealthy. I know sinobear isn’t a bum, but that’s the kinda thing bums say. “all the girls just go for rich guys”. Cop out. “I don’t need to try a little harder because unless I hit the powerball it wont make a difference. The problem is with the women!” totally unhelpful attitude.
About the salary thing, It’s funny cause he said the exact same thing to me about what the most I could possibly be earning because I came here as an ESL teacher.
The sad part is the fact people CAN get into serious careers while coming for whatever reason should be GOOD NEWS to people like dokken you know? It’s like heres somebody who came in the same boat as me and has done something kinda interesting with it. What that means to somebody healthy is “Great! If they can do it so can I! What do I need to do different?” But to somebody jealous and insecure, it’s like shining a spotlight on how you haven’t been able to do it. It’s much easier to just believe that it’s impossible or that you wouldn’t really want to do it anyway cause the money isn’t any better but it’s more work. If it’s impossible you aren’t responsible for not doing it.
when I wrote a blog on getting my career going I got the same shit as you remember. Some people got what I was saying and some people completely freaked the fuck out! It was every page from the loser playbook. From “you must be a liar because it hurts my ego for you to be real!” to “you must be a bad person…I wouldn’t even want to do something like that anymore!”
Mike here (correct me if I’m wrong I didn’t look it up) is a manufacturing rep. So his job is probably dealing with upstream suppliers and downstream customers. I dunno if you’re lucky your customers are other factories down the supply chain…if your customers are retail outlets, my condolences. Anyway it’s a good job for a smart guy from a blue collar background who has people skills and isn’t going to take any shit from the guy on the other end.
Again if I’m remembering right mike says he makes about 100K a year…that’s about what the market rate is. We did some work a couple years ago with a british garment sourcing company with a couple of their own private factories…and I saw their fucking payroll, man! They had a Scottish guy at a facility out in the sticks of Guangdong and his salary was 75K HKD/mth. And he wasn’t a super educated guy by any means but he was cool and sociable and didn’t take any shit, good man to have in that role. So yeah that’s about exactly in line with what mike is saying. It’s not finance/STEM people like me that thrive in manufacturing leadership, absolutely zero offense intended my friend and I would imagine youd agree.
Honestly, I don’t know mike just like none of you know me. One or both of us could be completely full of shit. I’m not, but you don’t know that and I’m not going to put up my linkedin. If I did you’d probably grumble that I looked like a douchebag.
And wouldn’t it just make the day of any loser to find out that “thank god! it IS impossible to do any better so I’m not responsible for where I am!”
For the record I don’t have a car, but I don’t begrudge anybody that does. Jesus Christ, I think mike’s point on that is just that there is no fucking way that all the expats here suddenly become anti-car public transpo advocates where they might’ve driven ford explorers back home. It’s just that it’s more socially acceptable here to not have one. Tons of places in the US at least, if you have no car people will assume you’re a bum. Here you can get away with it, but that’s not the same thing. I’m personally happy to live downtown close to work and not have a car. If I needed one I’d get one.
Just like women everywhere, SOME are loyal. SOME are not.
The same thing applies to men. SOME are loyal, SOME are not.
I dunno your situation, but like mike said, as much as it sucks you might want to think about what you can do differently. It's possible you did everything right, and you're an ambitious guy with well-thought out goals and this girl is chasing unrealistic expectations.
But then yeah maybe not. Was the grass really just a little bit greener? There are some pretty big cultural differences here when it comes to what to do with money. You might feel like you're making decent money and living well for this place ("hey 12K is way more than most locals make so girls gotta recognize, right?"), but then a girl might be thinking "wtf is wrong with this guy he makes 12K a month and has no savings for a house yet?!"
That might sound asinine to us, but then to that girl whose from this house obsessed culture where people in their 20s make <5K a month and think about houses or investments in property, securities or further education and see expats blowing salaries theyd kill for on trivial bullshit like eating well and not living at home or with 7 other people. I kid but maybe that girl would honestly feel more comfortable and relatable with a guy making 7K for now, living with his parents but 50% of the way towards that down payment.
I dunno I have no idea I've never dated a local but that's the type of shit that might make sense to them and not us.
dongbeiren:
Most teachers think locals are nuts for saving money to buy a crappy concrete box and never enjoying life. Most locals think teachers are idiots for spending so much eating, drinking and traveling. Unless either side can come to an understanding and acceptance of the other then no, it's not gonna work out.
expatlife26:
Yeah i'm not taking sides just pointing out a difference.
I do meet a lot of expats here (not just teachers by any means) who kinda live like they're on vacation all the time. I make a real point not to do that, cause honestly it is tempting and that feeling of being on vacation really never does go away at least for me.
But the locals a lot of them preach this good game about frugality and then have a 2 months salary rule for their phones, and that's just ridiculous. Its not like that money they save on meals like goes to wise investments or anything.
I think the difference is that buying a good meal or better drinks for yourself isn't face giving. I bet they kinda see going for a decent meal by yourself or buying good steaks to eat at home as being absurd cause nobody sees it.
dongbeiren:
Good point about the 2 months salary for a phone. The stereotype of the frugal Chinese saver only really applies to the older generation. Young people now who make 5k a month are all buying Iphones and foreign cars. I'm assuming it's mostly from borrowed money or family savings from their frugal elders who sacrificed their whole lives so a spoiled only child can have a car.
I'm also not making a value judgment about the wisest way to use one's income - the point is though that a lot of foreigners and Chinese view money differently and this could certainly lead to a conflict if one party only wants to gain face points while the other enjoys maintaining a certain standard of living even when no one is looking.
Okay, I am little confused here... I read plenty of old posts from so many of posters on this site admitting sleeping with married women. I also did it once, felt bad but couldn't stop it, she was one of the main managers in the company (not justifying, it was just wrong)... married and had child.
So how is that being loyal? if you mean in general.. I think its same as any women around the world.
mike and expatlife overlook the fact that women expect you to change in a relationship. they overlook your unpleasant routines, assuming things will be different once you're house trained. Chinese women also expect you to be dishonest about your finances, perhaps hoping an allegedly poor person has hidden savings that will be revealed when there is more trust.
my wife was often sad about my low.starting wealth. her familyoften tried to encourage her to get a new man. in the end i'd have to say, despite all the difficulties, she is tremendously loyal.
Scandinavian:
so are you housebroken yet ?
this is actually a good point: I've never seen "requirements" in Western relationships that the man must change after the relationship starts. You start a relationship with a person you like, not with a dream of what you would like him to be. But China is different, the man must change. And this can be a dealbreaker to some women
coineineagh:
most women expect to change men. it rarely turns out that way. we compromised: i changed a little to calm the storm, she tolerated a bit for the same reason.
Shining_brow:
And most men don't want the woman to change - and she does... :(
I have no doubt in my mind about the loyalty of my dear wife. it is me that sometimes wavers.
never ever ever would she let me go. and if I am in my right mind, I should never let her go.
My simple, silly, wife is pretty much the perfect girl for me. I make mistakes, she makes mistakes..... she makes more than me...... my mistakes are tiny, hers are huge.
I love her!!!
for you coineineagh..... my hidden wealth is is in my heart and soul.
Some are, some aren't. Typically there is more loyalty in couples that love each other, when it's about financial stability for regular sex, you can be certain that the lady has a secret boyfriend or does it regularly with attractive guys beside her husband (who also has mistresses).
In the second type of relationship they just don't look happy with each other, in fact they spend very little time together. Not bragging but before being with my girlfriend I have done so many wife/girlfriends of those rich guys without spending a penny on them. These girls just aren't attracted to their fat/ugly/slob of a husband/boyfriend, they are only attracted to their money.
I am fairly certain that if China had divorce laws similar to the West, you would see countless cases of girls marrying some rich dude then divorcing to take half of his assets/money and finally marrying a poorer guy they truly love/are attracted to. But in China, that's not how things usually work, in 99% cases the wife gets nothing in case of divorce.
ScotsAlan:
I agree about the divorce Eorthsio. The men normally get the kids too and the wife ends up living in some slum. And of course, once the husband has the kids they get farmed out to the grandparents. Not many Sunday dads in China. Buts lots of mums who never get to see their kids.
Shining_brow:
Those divorce laws have actually been changing!
Granted, the hubby with the money usually also has the people and connections to get the courts to rule more in their favour, but the laws are there to provide a lot more security to the (not working) wife than in the past.
When it comes to relationships and marriage, nobody says it better than Zsa Zsa Gabor.
"Husbands are like fires - they go out when unattended"
"We were both in love with him. I fell out of love with him, but he didn't."
And my all time favourite.... " I am a marvelous housekeeper. Every time I leave a man I keep his house."
There are 3 things in the World that scare me -
Heights
Spiders
Divorce
