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Q: Are most Chiense unwilling/unable to accept that racism and discrinination happen in China?
I've talked with quite a few Chinese (including coworkers and students), and very often, the only understanding of racism is that it something that white people do in other countries. I also have heard plenty of variations of the tired “Foreigners are treated too well” or “You benefit from white supremacy in China”.
Even when pointing out examples, being denied an apartment because the landlord thought “foreigners are too dirty”, being spit on while the cops watched and did nothing, the constant calls of “hello laowai”, coworker who was beaten (and the police who refused to prosecute the attackers), being told I don’t belong in China, being threatened by groups of Chinese who didn’t like me walking with one of “their” girls, etc., I found many Chinese refuse to accept there is racism.
Usually, the response is some combination of getting defensive (“It’s you who are hurting the feelings of Chinese by saying we discriminate”), justification (“If a foreigner is attacked, it’s because the foreigner must have done something to deserve it”), or outright denial.
It’s not all Chinese who are like this, but a great many just refuse to accept that it happens, and use it as a chance to lecture on how Chinese actually treat “waiguoren” better than other Chinese. In general, though, I found students (especially those who have non-Chinese friends), are more likely to accept that there is discrimination, but many of the 30+ crowd seem to just not want to admit it, and get immediately defensive, even those who would otherwise seem rational.
What have been your experiences with talking about racism in China with Chinese?
"But... Chinese are friendly and helpful..."
"It is Japan's fault."
"You just don't understand China."
"But... Chinese are friendly and helpful..."
"It is Japan's fault."
"You just don't understand China."
To deep. My conversations with most of my local friends are confined to which car which of them wants to purchase once his wedding photography business is off the ground.
There are no race laws here, if i get attacked for being awesomely white then it will be not be classed as a hate crime but just an assault. Which is good in one way, bad in others.
Getting Chinese to admit fault to a foreigner is nearly impossible. If you do find one that does admit it... they are almost immediately a traitor.
There is no point is discussing these kind of things with Chinese... they have been programmed to always act like the victim (but get ahead being the bully). If you start to claim that Chinese can be bullies, they just pull the same old card.
CCP education at its finest.
Mateusz:
I think that's a big part of it. They are conditioned/trained/indoctrinated to have victimhood complexes. Their identity is victim regardless of the circumstances. Because they are the victim, they can't ever be the perpetrator, so when they bully others, they're still in the right, in their minds.
At least I've had better luck with students who have admitted there is a problem, but it could be they have had more contact with non-Chinese, and so have seen/heard more first hand (Chinese friend of mine saw how a Chinese guy tried to start a fight with one of her Western friends just because the Westerner was the wrong ethnicity in the wrong place).
coineineagh:
the disturbing thing, is that the pervasive victimhood complexes were present long before this governmemt. Lu Xun wrote that his countrymen were crass, craven, cowardly, boastful, arrogant, depraved, cruel, rude, weak, etc. Mainlanders and the CCP are the chicken and the egg. Not everyone is like this, but it just takes a few (10%?) degenerates to dominate the culture and break down social trust for generations.
Englteachted:
This week, "Bullying is a problem in foreign schools but not a problem in China"
me: "But bullying happens all the time in Chinese schools"
them: " Yes but it is normal"
me: "but bullying is a bad thing?"
them: " yes"
me: "so shouldn't it be stopped?"
them: " but it is normal"
They are brainwashed thoroughly
Perhaps this is a window into how non-whites are treated in our own Western countries?
Although I can't imagine that black people in America get the treatment that I get here. New acquaintances buy me bottles of single malt whiskey. Restaurants give me free beer and discounts. I get invited out to dinner often. People want to have photos taken with me. Beautiful girls want to talk to me and give me their phone numbers. It's not quite the same as being shot by a police officer for crossing the road, such as what happens to black folks in America, but I know what I'd prefer. The few times that I have felt negative discrimination I could count on one hand. When it happens I remind myself that I am very lucky to have been born in the country that I was born in. Being a white male from an affluent Western country is an incredibly fortuitous thing. Some people don't realize this. I'm not saying that it's good or better to be white - I'm saying that some white people don't realize what it's like not to be white.
coineineagh:
don't know why you got so many downvotes. what you say is true. discrimination in China is mild compared to certain parts of the USA. but is is rea, and it is racism. i want it to be identifiable as such out of principal, and for the sake of communication. having a bunch of deluded people insist that it isn't what it is, can bevery alienating.
Shining_brow:
So, the upvote I just gave you was some sort of insult??? :p
dongbeiren:
I upvoted this too - the fact is foreigners often do get a lot of extra attention like this (especially outside of major cities) and people often do bend over backwards to show their hospitality or face or whatever you want to call it. Yes, there are also the special foreigner prices and insecure racist assholes but I've also experienced a lot of people being super nice to be because I am a western white male.
Mateusz:
If I were a guessing man, and I guess I am, maybe the negative comments come from derailing, and attempting to downplay/dismiss discrimination that others face (and the assumption that everyone is as lucky as NZteacher).
This isn't a comparison between who has it worse. If there was a discussion about police brutality against black people in the US, would it be valid to say that Jews were systematically killed in Nazi Germany by the millions, so Nazi Germany is worse than the US, and that invalidates any talk of racism in the US?
It's about the fact that there is racism in China, and that one of the biggest problems with racism in China is that it's ignored and downplayed. NZteacher having someone buy him a beer doesn't change the fact that white westerners have been attacked by Chinese guys for offenses like "taking their women".
nzteacher80:
Mateusz. I admit discrimination happens in China. There isn't a country on Earth where there is no discrimination. I get paid ten times more than some of my Chinese colleagues - surely that is discrimination. I'd hazard a guess that you would also benefit from the same privilege of having a white face. Would you be willing to accept a 90% pay reduction in the name of ending discrimination and restoring equality? My guess would be no.
we westerners keep an eye on fair and equal treatment, and privileges don't give us the happy-eyes. Chinese gift-giving culture may be connected to this cultural difference. we dislike the Chinese way because we don't see temporary privileges as being that useful. Chinese measure privileges only. when we complain about obvious racism, they conclude that we must be blind to the privileges we enjoy.
I don't want privileges: privileges can be taken away, and you look bad for making use of them (very important for opinion-forming). I want to be part of a functional society with competent and competitive people. If I'm successful, it wasn't solely because of getting a better start at life and having more privileges. most of it will have been from my own efforts.
If I'm not successful, I only have myself to blame. but at least i'm part of a fair and equal society that allows me to retain some dignity.
China is all about status quo and static views of reality. putting in effort is too "ma fan", so if you weren't born into wealth and power, at least you can't be blamed for not trying to better yourself - you aren't given a fair chance in China anyway.
One of the most epic statement I have ever heard : "Chinese can't be racist because China only has one race." so much ignorance in one sentence.
I think its more racisim through ignorance. I used to be racist decade ago when I was a hick. I have been shown my wrongs through education.
Eorthisio:
We can already try to educate them by ourselves.
About 2 years ago I was at a dinner with my boss, the owner of the company I am working at, the shareholders and some local officials (guanxi of the owner).
One of the officials stood up for a toast, he said he is glad to here with his "fellow Chinese" and "the foreigner" (me), his whole statement was clearly turned to express the members of the Chinese race and the non-Chinese dude.
A few minutes later I stood up and gave a toast in Mandarin, saying that I am glad to be here with my fellow humans, were they yellow, white or black it doesn't matter, I only see humans.
He got the message, they all did, we have had a few dinners with that guy since then and I have never been put aside again.
"It's all your imagination ! Look at X, he is doing fine ! It's you who is making the problem.", where X is a guy working in China on a deluxe expat package for a foreign company, living in an expat bubble. That's the kind of dialog I have in Chine about racism/xenophobia.
Yes, there aren't even any laws against it.
coineineagh:
i thought they were just never enforced. there probably are anti-discrimination laws, but they'll only pull them out of their sleeves to gain leverage.
xunliang:
No. Don't you remember that story recently in Beijing about a Chinese shop that put up a sign saying "No Chinese allowed", and the locals tried to sue, but a lawyer said there are no laws against discrimination?
