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Posts: 7178

Emperor

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Q: Are you a racist?

Went to an "expat" thing today with poster "hotwater".

 

We were amazed at how racist some  people are. I was astounded to hear what was coming from their mouths. It was beyond belief.  Rag heads.. nuke them... niggers.....shoot them.

 

As a westerner, I felt ashamed of some of my fellow westerners. 

 

Do us a favor racist bastards.... fuck off.

 

Agree?

 

 

 

 

 

 

9 years 3 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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Good post.

 

One objection first:

 

Chinese racism isn’t any more “innocent” than Western racism. Excusing racism, misogyny, homophobia and nationalism in other cultures is a lamentable habit of civilised Westerners. Other cultures’ shit attitudes are just as shit as Western shit attitudes.

 

Chinese people pointing and snickering at black people isn’t innocent. Racism is just as insidious in Han society as it has been throughout Western history. The fact that Chinese people are never confronted on their obnoxious behaviour doesn’t make it innocent.

 

Chinese university students cheering about the Philippines typhoon death toll (6,300) is sinister as hell. Just because their parents, peers, and probably some teachers were also excited doesn’t make it less vile.

 

Essentially, you are exempting a whole culture from responsibility because the whole culture is racist.

 

In answer to the question in the title:

 

No, I’m a culture-ist. I believe there is plenty wrong with mainland Chinese culture (see above). This has naught to do with genes or skin colour. Societies need to be judged on the attitudes and behaviour they encourage. Judging people on their ethnicity is retarded.

 

In answer to the final question:

 

Strongly agree, though I’d amend it to “Fuck off and die.”

 

I call people out on homophobia now and then, but I haven’t yet (thank god) encountered any expats like the ones you described. I used to know people who thought that "nuking" other races or cultures was funny, but I'd like to think those people never ventured beyond their hometown or circle of moronic friends.

 

Whatever the problems of mainland Chinese society, I want mainlanders to be more fortunate than they are (as opposed to dead). Their problems stem from the many things they have been deprived of by the state. I’d be delighted if the Chinese government started doing more for its people.

 

Summary:

 

What a damn shame that while I’m harping on about the shortcomings of Chinese culture and mainlanders’ attitudes, there are expats whining about “niggers” and “rag-heads”, and suggesting "nuking them" as a solution. Sigh.

 

While I've met a few Chinese boys who have exactly these kinds of opinions, I think the majority of mainlanders (like the majority of humans) are far above these wretched scum.

 

gouxiong:

Dear Samsara,

You describe yourself as 'culture-ist'.

Can you pls let me know what do you mean by this? Does it include your strong believe that your cultural (whatever it is), your nation or country culture, is superior to the other ones? A bit in the sense of nationalist believes his/her nations is superior to all others and racist believes his/her race is superior to all other races?

Or you mean something else?

9 years 3 weeks ago
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BobC:

Oh gouxiong I do tire of your post.  Once you again it seems you use 'tu quoquo'.  Maybe not as clear as your other post usually are but pretty close.  It does hurt my brain.   So many times I have wanted to write this but I finally will.  Let me add the definition to help,

 

 "logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position"

 

or in other words appeal to hypocrisy.

 

So let plays with words shall we?  

 

What would you say I am if I like cultures?  All kinds of cultures...?  A culturist?  What about if I only like one culture? A culturist?

 

Now let’s use that same line of logic but for nations.  I for some reason love nations, the idea of nation states and their division of humans into societies based on ethnicity, culture, language, etc. etc.,  is astounding.  So again would I not be a nationalist?  Which can mean the same thing as one person loving/liking their nation?

 

So in the sense that samsara said it here, it does sound like he is acting like a racist if we wish to switch the term racist and culturist. Liking one but not the other.   However, one is based on a physical attribute and the other on human behavior.  We can see cultures change however physical skin color cannot unless there is a mixing of a sort.  In addition, since this is China let’s use Chinese culture as an example shall we?  Has there culture been homogenous for the past 2000 years?  Doesn’t look like it based on history.  The current manifestation is quite different than other periods.  As well as those periods changing as well (e.g., Tang dynasty), and even now we see a changing of sorts.

 

Now if we take China’s recent rhetoric on western ideas and values, I guess my dialogue does not have much weight as I am trying to use logic and that is obviously a western construct as well as other things that have universal applications.  China must be thought of in terms of Chinese thought, wouldn’t that fit perfectly into post-modernism?  Therefore, logic is something devised to usurp Chinese thought and cannot be used in regards to internal Chinese issues and dialogues.  So the whole conversation is mute.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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Samsara:

Dear Gouxiong,

 

I think people should be judged on their behaviour and ideas.

 

If someone tends to hack up phlegm in public, or spit food on the table and floor in restaurants, I will find their company embarrassing and distasteful. My assessment isn’t based on whether they are Chinese.

 

If someone only expresses prescribed opinions and has not developed their own ideas about anything, they are unlikely to maintain my interest as a conversation partner. Their genetic makeup is irrelevant.

 

If someone gets excited at the thought of great numbers of other types of people getting wiped off the face of the planet by natural disasters or nuclear weapons, fuck them.

 

I have certain standards of behaviour which I think are reasonable. You may disagree with the specifics, or argue that my criteria are Western-centric, or declare that the merits of all cultures are different but equal (vomit). But you’d be hard-pressed to argue that Chinese people’s standards of social behaviour or human decency are on par with Australians’.

 

My assessment of a culture is based on what sort of people it produces, and what behaviour and ideas are tolerated, taught or encouraged by that culture.

 

Chinese people are not born with retarded hatred towards Japanese people. That has to be put there. Similarly, if people from a particular Australian subculture think that “rag-heads” need to be “nuked”, I will consider the cultural environment which spawned such attitudes "inferior".

 

Do I think Australian culture is superior to Chinese culture? Yes. Here are a few reasons why:

 

Because Australians are polite to each other (except bogans). Because if my phone falls out of my pocket in a busy street, I and my phone will be reunited within a few seconds. Because if I fall off my bike, the nearest several people will come and see if I’m OK (and I won’t then feign a leg injury and ask for compensation). Because if I pass out after getting off the subway, I will wake up in hospital, not in heaven.

 

Because I’ve never seen domestic violence in public in Australia. Because when I see a case of child imprisonment/torture/rape on TV I don’t feel impassive.

 

Because – despite Australia fighting against Japan in World War II – if a primary school student says that “Japanese people are pigs” they will not get a gold star and unanimous praise and back pats. In fact, their parents will get a rather “concerned” phone call, and people will start talking about where such filthy ideas came from.

 

Because Australians don’t perceive the world as fundamentally consisting of “Australia” and “who cares”. Because my Australian friends read books, do research, and want to know things. Because the Australians I know can express diverse, interesting opinions on any topic. Because no Australian man I have ever met would prohibit his partner from pursuing a Master’s Degree, on the basis that it would challenge his manhood and authority.

 

And because Australia has Vegemite.

 

Are a proportion of Australian people assholes? YES. But does Australian society encourage lying, cheating, opportunism, crass displays of wealth, ignorance, pushiness, unhygienic behaviour, or complete disregard towards others? NO.

 

You seem to be implying that I am nationalistic, and that I believe my nation (and its culture) is superior because it is the nation I am from.

 

Sorry, but I’m not nationalistic. I don’t support Australia in international disputes. I don’t get enraged when a country’s government disagrees with the Australian government. I don’t support Australia’s military involvement in the Middle East. I don’t think breaking out an Australian flag to get across a political message makes someone a patriot (it is more likely to indicate they are a racist/xenophobe/dimwit). If I heard a song with the lyrics "I love you Australia", I would vomit on the nearest person's face.

 

I’ve never supported genocide against Australia’s former adversaries in war. When I see an Australian battleship on TV I don’t get an erection. I am more interested in the reality of my country's history than in praising my ancestors for being noble and virtuous. If someone draws my attention to any sociological problem that I hadn’t considered, I become very interested in their opinion, rather than immediately thinking “fuck you" and telling them they don’t understand Australian culture because they are foreign.

 

And on top of all that, I don’t think Australia is the “greatest god damn nation on earth”. That award probably goes to New Zealand or one of the Scandinavian nations. I don’t feel like a traitor for saying so, because those countries have better national policies.

 

I’m very glad I was born in Australia, because it is amongst the best countries to be born in (in terms of the advantages one has as a human).

 

Australia (because of its policies and social climate) has higher standards of EVERYTHING than China. That’s culture-ism for you.

 

9 years 3 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Dear BobC,

I cannot and also do not have an ambition to stop you for being tired if a simple question is asked. 

And question is no accusation and I also never said that anybody in here is a racist (this I do not know) - however I wrote that a lot of posts (including yours) bears very strong 'superiority feeling'.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Dear Samsara,

Now I understand what you mean by calling yourself  'culturist'. 

You are simply convinced that your culture is superior to many other cultures in the world with probably few exceptions you mentioned.

 

I do not think there are better and worse cultures however I am convinced there are better and worse people. 

In the past there were people coming to my country, believing their culture is superior to ours and they did no good. I am not accusing you from being violent or any bad intention. I just have a natural mistrust - may be aversion (?) - to the people who are voluntarily coming to the foreign country and saying they are better than the majority of the people living in that country.

But you going anywhere is luckily none of my business so I let it go with a light heart.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Comments also count for your 50 cents right?

9 years 3 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

Beautifully written reply from Samsara to gouxiong - @gouxiong I completely get where you're coming from. I would strongly recommend that people who believe in the superiority of their culture avoid living in China or anywhere outside of their home country for that matter. My guess is that Samsara, myself and many other critics of China on this forum came to China with on open mind and a genuine eagerness to experience a new culture. There are cultural situations where using terms "better" and "worse" are entirely subjective and unfair but there ARE behaviors that are objectively abhorrent. So taking your cultural relativism to the extreme justifies behavior that is unsanitary, inefficient and dishonest. Some of us who have been in China for awhile have learned first hand that the average Chinese person exhibits selfishness, dishonesty and vulgarity more than the average westerner. I get your relativism to a certain extent. Yes, Chinese culture is less direct and that can explain dishonesty in some cases but there are many others when the incessant lying destroys people's lives and fractures the fabric of the whole society, leading to widespread mistrust everywhere. It's great to keep your mind open but being open minded doesn't always mean being accepting of everything around you. 

9 years 3 weeks ago
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BobC:

Dear Gouxiong,

 

I find many of your post to be one of cultural relativism, hence my post-modernist claim, which seems to shut down any discussion of what is brought up in regards to differences or critiques that users post.  I can understand the issue of trying to bring understanding (cultural equivalency) to the table.   However too much of reads like you try to discredit discussion because of ‘tu quoquo’.   Hence my reply. 

 

And superiority feelings? Care to elaborate?

Regards

9 years 3 weeks ago
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Samsara:

@ Gouxiong

 

"I do not think there are better and worse cultures however I do think there are better and worse people."

 

So is a culture that encourages dishonesty, greed, selfishness, opportunism, inconsiderate behaviour and crass displays of wealth EQUAL to a culture that encourages honesty, empathy and integrity?

 

Is a culture that produces oodles of original art, literature, music and film EQUAL to one where curiosity and creativity are stunted in childhood and freedom of expression frowned upon?

 

Is a culture that endorses genital mutilation, child brides, and capital punishment for gay people equal to a culture that DOESN'T?
 

Or are you just saying words that you think sound generous, but in fact only make sense if you don't contemplate the reality that some people live in?

 

9 years 3 weeks ago
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9 years 3 weeks ago
 
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I apologise for my Saturday outburst. I have been under a bit of stress and I just shocked at what I heard on Saturday. It got my steam up and I ranted. I used words I should not have used.

icnif77:

'Down', 'cause I liked your 'outburst'. No need for apology!

9 years 3 weeks ago
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sorrel:

@ScotsAlan.

don't worry about it

it is a normal reaction to an unexpected situation - it could have been a lot worse had you exploded there and then.

I will maintain my assertion that ECC is a safety valve of sorts where it is better to complain (and yes everyone does it unless you are a wumao or a Hadley), than explode where you could invite personal damage.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

Thanks sorrel. What I heard on Saturday would not have surprised me in a hick town where people go nowhere, and the water is supplied through lead pipes. I come from a hick town, so I know about them. I was just shocked. I was angry... but above all I was disapointed. How can western education produce such results? Role model.... yeah right. But the scariest thing of course.... these guys have a vote.. horrific. I am all for freedom of speach. But what chance do the kids have when they hear bile like that everyday.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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9 years 3 weeks ago
 
Posts: 7178

Emperor

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There is a massive difference between uneducated ignorance, and educated bigotry. Ok, so my postings tend to be pro China. I know that. But China does not actually bomb anyone (at the moment). Chinese education is shit. Everyone says that. Western education is fantastic. Lots of people say that. I blame fox news. I honestly do.

ScotsAlan:

What I mean to say is, if I go to a hick town and hear racists comments, no problem. Its a hick town. Could be in Europe, the Americas, Africa or OZ. Its expected.. sadly. But thats the way it is. But to hear international peoople say the worst things in my life....Nah. Not on. Once you become "international", the hick town attitudes should be left behind.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

There is no such thing as pro-China coming from a non-Chinese, you will never be Chinese. There are Arabs, Blacks or Asians who are pro-West because they can become Westerners, have a Western passport and call Western countries home. Not the opposite way around.

 

You like China, I like China too, there are things I can't tolerate here but China is a place where I choose to stay because overall it's not so bad. However I will never be pro-China, I will never call China home, simply because even if I achieve fluency in Putonghua, marry a Chinese woman and have more knowledge about Chinese culture than any Chinese out there, I will never be Chinese.

 

China is not bombing anyone because they can't, the PLA has zero projection capability. They still bully their neighbors though, the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Mongolia, Russia, Pakistan all have territorial disagreements with China, this country has by far the most territorial disputes in the world.

 

People are quick to forget Tibet, Xinjiang, the persecution of Falun Gong followers and the event that shall never be mentioned when China shows its fancy new skyscrapers and throws money around. China can become a better country but not under the Communist devils' rule. On the 4th of June every year I put a candle on my window to show respect for China and disdain to the CCP, I hope you know why, I really hope.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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rasklnik:

You defend a regime that can not be defended by a man with any morals. It is not simply ok here, it is bleak beyond all belief. From one T to another T from Xinjiang to Blind Lawyers, from Foot binding to free cancer, you are either the most willfully ignorant of men, or had the most horrible experiences before China. I will take the word of Human Rights Watch, Journalists without borders, and AI and the Vatican over 'anybody' who has an opinion. China blocked the UN security vote on NK's human rights situation...a situation called, "without equal since the Nazi Death Camps". Oh sure this country hasn't bombed anybody, but props up a regime that starves their own people to death, because THIS COUNTRY starved their own people to death, and put the lead starvation engineer in a big crystal box.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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9 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Listen..

 

I am not talking about hick people with stupid opinions about race.  I am talking about educated people who feel genuine hatred.  Not a mild dislike. Not a slight discomfort.

 

I am talking about real hatred. Hatred based on skin colour.

 

A guy told us a story of white only areas in America ( He also quoted the "no go" areas in the uk). He said if a black guy or woman goes there, cops shoot him. He said they are good cops.

 

I am not talking about some guy pointing at another guy shouting out " look at him".  I am talking about racist hatred.  Pure hatred. Spiteful, nasty hatred.

 

I heard that on Saturday from people who call themselves ex-pats.

 

Talk about Jim Crow. Wow.

 

 

RiriRiri:

First you apologize and then you go on about exactly the same BS.

 

We get it they got on your nerves but you're saying nothing that hasn't been answered in the first page already.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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9 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Listen..

 

I am not talking about hick people with stupid opinions about race.  I am talking about educated people who feel genuine hatred.  Not a mild dislike. Not a slight discomfort.

 

I am talking about real hatred. Hatred based on skin colour.

 

A guy told us a story of white only areas in America ( He also quoted the "no go" areas in the uk). He said if a black guy or woman goes there, cops shoot him. He said they are good cops.

 

I am not talking about some guy pointing at another guy shouting out " look at him".  I am talking about racist hatred.  Pure hatred. Spiteful, nasty hatred.

 

I heard that on Saturday from people who call themselves ex-pats.

 

Talk about Jim Crow. Wow.

 

 

mattsm84:

Might the distinction you draw be a product of your own prejudice? People can be smart and capable and hold terrible opinions. But enough about your love affair with China's oppressive oligarchy *rimshot*.

 

Jim Crow is actually an example of this. Consider that in the immediate aftermath if the Civil War the whites of the south were newly conquered and occupied by what was to them a foreign army while their former slaves had be liberated and were being elected to hold government offices. Within 20 year they had successfully executed a terror campaigned designed to put themselves back in power. Within 35 they'd cemented that position into written law, and by the turn of the century they had changed the historical narrative of the war itself to fit their agenda. This narrative has in fact persisted in many people's hearts until the modern day. These are not the results of disorganized blind hatred, or the plans of stupid men.

9 years 3 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

And unlike you ScotsAlan I think that the open racism is much less dangerous than that hidden one. If confronted with open racism so you may do something, you may react in certain way. On top of that majority of the people will at best ignore the open racist and these people (present in each and every country and nation in the world), being isolated, cannot rally do much harm (just few will develop violent behavior and even those are better monitored if known).

However hidden racism, which some people try to call 'culturism' is much more dangerous. These people pretend to be open minded, tolerant and above of small 'skirmishes'.

In reality they are saying that they have a right to decide what is better o equal 'culture' to theirs and what is inferior 'culture'. They feel they have a right to lecture and judge other people just because they think their 'culture' is better.

I find these people behavior much more dangerous as apparently a lot of people can consider such a behavior clearly aimed towards certain clearly defined group of individuals as acceptable. 

Luckily in China these people can at best jut whine at the expat sites or commit some, in West as well as East, highly questionable deeds (like shouting on the person who just watches them or offending/trying to humiliate the people who are talking among themselves etc.) and contribute thus to certain negative stereotypes about foreigners in China.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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My first reply to this question was meant to be lighthearted, but here's a more serious response. 

 

Genetically speaking, there is no such thing as equality. We are only just discovering how complex our genome is. Blacks are roughly 5 times more likely to be aggressive than non-blacks because of a higher dominance of a single gene they carry. East Asians have a higher amount of Neanderthal DNA than other races because it is likely they had a second encounter with them.  We are not all the same under the skin. 

 

Now that that's out of the way, I will say that I am not a racist. I am a culturist. Western civilized culture is superior to middle eastern Shariah law culture. That's why multiculturalism was bound to fail, has failed, and always will fail. 

 

 

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9 years 3 weeks ago
 
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