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anonymous
Q: Bye Bye to easy F Visa's in Shenzhen?
Hi Guys
My Gov friend said after March 1st F visa's might go from a 1 year visa to only being granted to 1 month visa due to the illegal market of teacher and I heard from him 34 foreigners came into the PSB in Lohuo with a list of illegal teachers working at various companies, they were upset due to not being granted a job the legal way( It does take a long time), the other companies that can hire legally use the easy way of hiring a teacher on the spot with a F Visa. .
Looks like there is a civil war between Z Visa holders and F visa Holders..
Anyone else heard of the new F Visa laws starting in MArch 2013? i heard about the Spitting law in March.
11 years 12 weeks ago in Visa & Legalities - Shenzhen
I heard about applying visas restrictions in June (God forbids) Imagine renewing residency permit every month 
I am extremely wary of answering such questions to anonymous posters.
Perhaps stick around for a few months make a few posts, let us get to know you, then, maybe, i'll tell you what I think.
Its a warning, a news report and a question, I and others will report any F Visa teacher
You have been warned.
It's time we protected our job market for us legal working guys.
ironman510:
I feel for anyone needing a job, but its getting to the point where F Visa teachers are stealing our legal jobs because companies can pay off the police.
Sometimes teaching on an F-visa is acceptable. I do regular graduate seminars in Guangzhou, Shanghai, and Nanjing on various Biomedical topics. The first time I was asked to do so I also inquired whether or not I needed a legal working visa for this. In response I was told by several separate informed parties that it was not necessary so long as I didn't earn any salary within the mainland (I work for Columbia University and Hong Kong University). Only on one occasion have I had to obtain a FEC, and that was while having an extended stay in Tai'an, Shandong at a university laboratory. F-visa still being acceptable.
As for other forms of work- teaching being the most commonly discussed profession- I think the stringent nature of the visa police should depend on the locale. In cities in the aforementioned city like Shenzhen, or other larger cities, it seems reasonable to require working visas. However I think in this way because such cities are more cosmopolitan and have larger foreign populations. So standards should be higher.
However in some cities, where salaries would be much lower, and demand might be so great, but supply is virtually non-existent- I think rules need not be so strict. Perhaps only requiring an experienced/native speaker with a clean criminal history. Actually I think providing a clean criminal history report is the most important.
Shining_brow:
Curious... a clean criminal record is more important than the ability to teach, or knowledge of, a language...
MasqueX:
I meant to infer that a clean criminal history report should cover all professions and all cities. Perhaps I am not the right person to discuss the language teaching field. I mainly perform and teach subjects in science and maths; I suspect I haven't the lingual knowledge to teach English- and I'm a Ph.D. native of the USA!
No disrespect intended, but without many years of formal education and training a person could never work in my field. So perhaps I don't value workers skills in the Chinese language training sector very highly. I've known several teachers on the mainland, and only one of them actually was educated and trained as a language instructor. I think doing that kind of work without a formal education behind you shows a lack of real goals in ones life. So whether you are degreed or not, unless your major was education... just being a native speaker with a clean criminal history report is enough.
Traveler:
I agree with you that teachers should be trained and skilled in teaching. I don't think criminal history really matters so much, as long as it isn't a major offence (particularly offences against children, or of a sexual nature). Criminal history doesn't usually exclude a person from teaching in Australia. Not sure about other countries.
ironman510:
@ MasqueX
It don't matter how pretty you try to make it sound, teaching on an F Visa is illegal, I don't care what anyone tells you, you're fooling your self into believing it's legal, or a Gov or School and or company mind F**ked you.
If I meet you, I'll report you, I report 2 guys today. last week I earned 300 RMB for truning in 3 F visa teachers from METEN.
chefatwork:
So you are a government agent? Improve your teaching skills then nobody will steal your job you loser!
ironman510:
@chefatwork
We said nothing about teaching skills. We were talking about companies that take the back door to hiring teachers illegally because it's more faster than waiting for a Z visa.
But we need to make a stand on this. F Visa teaching wont last forever.
chefatwork:
@ironman It has been going for the last 12 years I have been in China and it will keep on happening. As long as there is a demand it will happen. I just don't understand your need to play sheriff of SZ. Let the police do their job. It can not end well for you
MasqueX:
@ironman If you would like to 'report' me please name the place and time. I have a Ph.D. from Columbia University and well over 5 years of teaching throughout the world. I dare you to meet me and see whom the PSB eyes more wearily. I have visa issued to me by the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology formally inviting me to lecture throughout China.
PM Me- seriously, no one will look at your paltry Z visa and my credentials and say a single foul word to me. Choose your battles wisely scrappy doo. 
I'll be happy to report you, I'll call your bluff, when can we meet at the PSB? Lets test your theory...
I'm game. Tip, use your so called PH.D to get your self a Z Visa.
@ chefatwork
When you have a family to think about and you try to stay legally in China to take care of them, well I'd say a lot of us legal working folks can get pretty pissed off when a company say: Oh will need time to Change your Z visa to our company, we'll call if we have time in the future, because we have an F Visa teacher here ready now..
So Yeah I'll be playing sheriff in SZ for awhile.
My whole point is, some of us that are married to Chinese people require us to remain here legally. If we don't well then we risk our children's future, China will not allow this trend forever, yes I agree its been going on for a long time, even as some said the past 12 years. But China will change this someday, people who do have a MASTERS Degree like me or a PHD like MAsqueX should be welcomed to get the Z visa on the spot.
I'll report any company that does this, or person. At least for the good legal working guys who have families to think about and work for. No legal Z visa holder should be replaced by a F Visa teacher.
MasqueX:
It's funny we discuss this because I was just in Shenzhen last night. However I didn't see these comments until later after I had arrived in Guangzhou. I do need to go back around the 5th or 6th, I'll take the train from Guangzhou to Shenzhen, then exit at Luohu station. They have a PSB right? Actually I don't have much experience in Shenzhen (there isn't any significant biomedical research going on in that city.)
I do understand your point about people working without a Z-visa; however I would like to ask you if you know there are other types of business people can do in China? The whole and entire gamut of Chinese visa's do not pertain to teaching English. There are several instances in which an F-visa is useful. Asking me to have a Z-visa to travel to Jiaotong University and give a 3-hour seminar and then return to HK for work is futile. In actuality I have a working permit in Hong Kong. I can't imagine have to acquire a Z-visa each time I give a seminar, or attend a conference, or participate in a research symposium on the mainland. I suspect my passport would have 30 different Z-visas within 6 months!
I can understand that your point is that for the 'English teaching profession in China' there should be greater control on whom can legally work, and whom cannot. But F-visas exist for people like myself- whom come here to handle small matters and then leave. So for someone in my field with an F-visa there is no competition with someone like yourself.
I would like to close my long comment on one final point; any institution that would prefer an illegal worker over a legal worker is not credible enough to be considered for a lasting position. This is as fair a statement in China as in the USA or Elsewhere. If you, or someone you know, can acquire a working visa in your chosen field you shouldn't be so unnerved by this trend of illegal workers. Any company or school that has credible long-term goals would always prefer a legal worker. By taking issue with the people who don't have such long-term goals, what you are really doing is 'stirring the pot' in a country and city that is not your true homeland. I've learned over my many trips into China that this country has its own rules, and many of them are not written on legal documents..they're written in relationships between people and monetary 'gifts.' In 'protecting' your profession, you might someday find you have several people with far greater ability than you in Shenzhen that are none to friendly to you. Don't forget, that F-visa worker gets fired, and the owner of that school can potentially get fined 50,000rmb.. How many school bosses do you want looking for you and your family in Shenzhen? I'm not trying to scare you, just remind you that you may live and work in SZ, but you are not a Chinese. And China will never be 'your' country, so don't make unnecessary trouble.
Traveler:
MasqueX: It doesn't matter how much you glamorise your position, you still need a Z visa to teach. You are not above those of us that work legally in China, simply because you think you should be.
I have taught Maths, Science, Drama and University Preparation in China. I even taught all subjects in the final year of an Australian degree, encompassing Financial Management, Business Management, Human Resource Management and Marketing.
There were no special rules because of this. You are still viewed by the Chinese Government as an English Teacher, because you are teaching in English (their logic, not mine), so you require a Z Visa. As far as I remember, a Z visa is multi-entry, so you only need to get it once for the whole year.
Unless you choose not to, in which case you are compounding the issue of illegal workers in China. However, if you can show me evidence that I am wrong, and that you are a special case under Chinese law, then I will humbly apologise.
@MasqueX
Yes, The F Visa is allowed do conduct seminars, but a Z visa required for a 3, 6 month or 1 year contract with a company and only that company..
I sympathize with you there. Yes back and forth work from SZ or China to HK is a hassle, but it's not like a yearly contract.
So my complaints are for those companies that can't wait for us legal Z visa holders to get a release letter and finish the documents that are required to change our visa to a new company. No, they just hand over 1 year contract to a F Visa teacher.
chefatwork:
I understand your problem but do you really want to work for a company that would rather hire illegal workers? I am not in the ESL industry, so it does not affect me but, do you want to piss of a bunch a people just because you lost out on a job? Move on to the next one! Masque is 100 percent correct. You are allowed to do short term lectures and seminars on a F visa. He clearly stated that he;s working in HK and only does lectures in China, so yes he is fine.
@chefatwork.
Uh I don't know if you saw my reply to Masque above yours, but I said I agreed, hello, can you read?
FYI if your working in shandong , most psp offices now will only give 6 months instead of a year to get another 400 rmb in revenue from the school.
Indeed, they need to raid 90% of the schools here and close them down. They're responsible for creating a job market full of illegal workers. You can't blame people for coming here on the promise of a work visa only to discover it can't be obtained after arrival. Very common problem here.
It's not fair to the legal workers or the legal schools when 90% of the schools are hiring without a proper work visa. They're using Business and Tourist visas. Jiuhau school is hiring a bunch of people only giving them a business visa and they earn a salary in China. But, it's not just this school. Webi makes you wait 90 days before they apply for your work visa. This is also illegal. As you can see, even the large chain schools are operating illegally when it comes to work visa.
In short, the English teaching market in China has become saturated with charlatan schools, illegal school and illegal teachers. This hurts the legitimacy of the profession, the students, and the teachers. The only people who win are the owners or in the case of the chain schools, stock holders.
It's a big mess here, and it's not getting any better.
dandmcd:
Yep, big chains, small schools, and agents all say and do the same thing. Even the most well known schools in the cities will make you wait a semester to get a work visa, which is a problem if the school upsets the local officials in some way and they decide to raid the schools.
Employing procedures are as follows:
1, the employing institution autonomy and foreign applicants to finalize terms and conditions of employment contracts, signed, report to the local administrative department of Education (provincial colleges directly reported to the provincial administrative department of education). The need for teachers to provide general conditions: 1) the minimum standards of teacher's salary per month prescribed by 2200 yuan / person, not on cap; 2) one year contract offer from the international travel or set a maximum limit (generally 7000 to 8000 yuan), six months period to provide a single ticket; 3) to provide free housing, general requirements: have a separate bedroom, living room, toilet and bathroom, color TV, air-conditioning and heating, can set up internet telephone, refrigerator, washing machine and the necessary furniture; 4) in addition to give certain telephone charges, charges for water and electricity subsidies or bear in full; 5) 2200 yuan travel subsidies every year; 6) according to the Chinese workers standard medical subsidies; 7) enjoy paid vacation; 7) transfer to the nearest International Airport); 8 teaching hours generally in 12 to 16 hours per week;
2, the provincial education administrative departments shall be approved and issued the invitation letter and experts confirmed cases (some provinces to the Provincial Foreign Affairs Office for the two documents);
3, delivery of invitation and experts confirmed to foreign teachers, foreign teachers in our country;
4 in the consulates and embassies to apply for a work visa. Namely: Z visa or lecturing visa, namely: F visa;
5, teachers determine the arrival date, booking air tickets, notify the hiring unit machine;
6, teachers at the school. In addition, because many employers hire time of emergency, many domestic provinces, city can agree to each unit let teachers first bid for the travel visa to China, after arrival in a month by the employing units to change the visa prefix.
What good is going to the PSB and reporting ilegall teachers or schools going to do? You guys really have no clue about Chinese culture or how things work here do you? The PSB already knows all the schools are hiring foreigners illegally. They already the schools are hiring them illegally. The fact is the schools just continue paying them off or someone at the PSB who is already being paid by the schools will just tip the schools off if they are about to be raided. Even if they are raided they just pay a penatly also know as Hong Bao. My understanding based on the above comments is that you guys are pissed off because you can not get the z visa right? You are pissed off because you have Masters Degrees and PhDs and still cant get legal right? Well, get in line? You think that the other teachers who are working illegall in those schools also dont have Bachelors and Masters degree. In many cases, if you would ask those teachers instead of rating on them, I bet you would find out in many cases they are just as qualified to have those jobs as you are. So you want to play the new sheriff in Shenzhen and the rest of China. Yeah, go to the PSB in louhu and report all those other scumbag dirty no good job stealing foreingers, who by the way are in the same predicament you your selves are in. I bet if you would talk to them and get to know them instead of narking them out, you would find out that they are in the same predicament you guys are in. They also have families to support and maybe they have really tried to get legal. I guess you guys never consider their struggles. You guys think just because you got a Masters and PhD that you are superior and better and you automatically deserve a Z visa. I think you should talk to all the foreigners in the US and Euroupe who have Masters and Bachelors and even experience who have no jobs, or very low paying jobs right now and tell them this line of crap you are posting on this website. I hate the narks, I hate the people who stinch out their fellow teachers and expats. If you really want to change things here in China and Shenzhen. Why not go to the real cause of the problem. Is it all those foreingers working here illegally that is causing the problem, or is it the government of China and Shenzhen stirct poliies that are making it nearly impossible for well established, profitable, and qualified schools to even get the lisense. Do you ever talk to schools and training centers and ask them how difficult and nearly impossible the government has made it for them to get the foreign expert lisense. I bet you havent. No, you guys are too selfish and only think about yourselves. How you asked the illegall teachers why they are working illlegally. No, you havent. I bet if you asked them, instead of ratting them out. You would find that many of them were lied to by agents, employment agencies, and schools who gave them false promises and who break their contracts. Many schools here promise the z visa, work permit, and resident permit. Yes, there are some who really do need punished. I agree the schools and training centers who do this do need fined, punished, and possible shut down if they dont stop these actions. However, you guys getting the other teachers in trouble is not right. If you yourselves can not get the Z visa, work permit, and resident permit. Than really you are in the same predicament or situation those other teachers are in who just chose to work illegally. Instead of ratting out the other teachers who are in the same situation you are in ,why not form an alliance and a group of unified teachers and go to the government, education bureau, safea, PSB, and take a stand against these rediculous policies that they have put in place to make it nearly impossible for schools to legally hire foreingers? Btw, I see no difference if a school hires someone with an F visa, L visa, or promises to obtain an z visa. The reality is probally 80 to 90 percent of the schools cant get the Z visas anyway. So, how is this effecting you if many of those schools are not legal to hire foreigners anyway? Oh, one more thing, next time before you guys decide to play sheriff again and rat out your fellow teachers, why dont you go to those people and tell them you are going to rat them out.? Why dont you give those people your names, phone numbers, and address. Why are you guys such big cowards!
Shining_brow:
What an absolute load of crap!!!!!
Firstly, are those who are working illegally more likely to have a Master's or PhD, than those working legally (and legitimately)? Hell no!!! Definitely less so! Any real teacher, who has done the hard yards to get all those legitimate qualifications are much less likely to be working illegally. Why? BECAUSE THEY CAN! Not much of a no-brainer, is it??
I will agree with you in one respect - those who get gyped by a dodgey school, that promises Z visas, but don't come through. It happens - not a hell of a lot to do about it.
But, if you're intending to go to China to work, knowing you'll be working illegally, you deserve what you get when you're caught!*
"You guys think just because you got a Masters and PhD that you are superior and better and you automatically deserve a Z visa" I just hate when people need to pull in emotive BS with a fairly logical argument... a) am I 'superior and better' than those without my qualifications? Nope (that's the emotive BS out of the way). b) do I automatically deserve a Z visa because of my qualifications... in the context of getting a legitimate Z visa from a legitimate school, over someone withOUT my level of qualifications... yep, sure do!!! I've proven my abilities! I've got that experience! Should I really be in competition with some fool who just stepped off the boat with a dodgey 2 hour tesol certification for that coveted Z visa?? Hell no!!!
"Their struggles" do not come into this discussion!! Justify it how you want, but if someone is knowingly working illegally here (which means, having to get here in the first place), then they deserve whatever punishment they get from the authorities.
Do those dodgey schools deserve to be severely punished as well? Yep, sure do!
Does the law need an overhaul? Yep, sure does!
Does the whole culture of corruption need to have 9mm of lead put to its head? Sure does!
But you CAN NOT justify (ie, excuse) working here illegally because of that!
(*FTR - I'm about to become one of those illegals. I know it. A few hundred others in my position know it... but that's the ridiculous way this country operates...)
CARLGODWIN1983:
Shing,
You are right to a degree.
However, doubleaa has a very good point which I can vouch for as there was a time when I had no choice but to work on a F when I first came to Shenzhen last September. I am not working now as I have left the school that wouldn't give me a Z visa.
Now looking for a new job but trying to find out if I have a girlfriend to stay in SHenzhen for first. We have effectively split up tonight, so I can make progress now.
Shining_brow:
But Carl.. how do you feel about illegal immigrants working in your country?? "Yeah, sure, no problem, let them go for it"?? Or, does it annoy you? Is it just illegal working that's ok, or any law that someone breaks? Is it ok for someone to ram your nice car, and just walk away?? Where's the line?
What doubleaa is trying to say is - it should be ok for anyone to work illegally here (or anywhere), and no-one - especially those who have done the work and have the qualifications and experience and training - ought to have problem with it. When that comes back to bite us on the arse, as wages are kept low due to all the dodgey schools that offer low pays to unqualified and inexperienced 'teachers', then we don't have anything to complain about...
Btw, as I write this, the background has the bit about "I hate the narks, I hate the people who stinch out their fellow teachers and expats" Not to put too fine a point on it, but since we all become buddy-buddy such that all expats are suddenly best mates, and have to look after each other's backs??? Isn't that just as ridiculous as the Chinese idea that all foreigners should just be lumped into one big 'foreign' category??
if you want to work legally, you have to apply for work visa. right now, due to the new exit-entry regulation, China will not issue one year multi-entries for business visa anymore. And the half-year multi-entries it is really hard to get too.
As teacher, they should apply for the expat license and resident permit to work in China though.
If you intend to apply for them, you can contact me via consultant01@0086rich.com
Cheers!
Chester
ironman510:
Your site didnt work, and your talking to a brick wall, after September your student visa features are gone.
