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Q: Can I expect justice here, from courts etc?
I have been working here as a teacher since last two years with a valid Z and contract with the kindergarten. Everything went well until the I saw couple of guys and a lady show up up during my lesson. They left after a while and I was asked to see them in the principle's office where the principle has already brought all documents including contracts out on the table. I was told they are from police office and they want to investigate my working 'BEEHIV RR' since someone in the neighborhood couldn't assimilate the progress of the kindergarten. I was cool since I knew I have everything in order.
Next day asked me, principle and the company manager which brought us together two years ago to go to their office. I was told the manager has put my designation other than a teacher so my working 'BEEHIVER' is illegal and I was crunching my teeth for being nice at the first interaction. I provided contract, passport with Z visa and valid RPs and FEC but none could move them from what they had already decided or were told. I asked nicely as if I had done something wrong like crimes, pedo scheme or anything and the answer was 'no' just your working 'BEEHIVER' as per law is illegal.
Asked what hat would be the outcome, they replied I should wait until they call me again. Went to their office this morning as required and duh! 20000 fine for your working BEEHIVER has violated the law. Asked about the article of the law, couldn't find anything that could go against me.
Now finger-crossed, thinking what choice do I have since they already threatened to detain me if I don't pay the fine and if I pay the fine, I can continue working and they will help me in correcting the documents. It's all going above my head at the moment so thought if anyone could give me a suggestion please?
Personally thinking to to get myself detained and take it to the court and take the shit out of the whole curry but not sure if I have any chance to find justice?
8 years 4 days ago in Visa & Legalities - China
Without knowing details, I'd say it's a bluff.
If Contract has provision about 'if party B breach the Contract must pay fine in amount of 20k Rmb' that must be resolved in Chinese Court, I think.
If your salary is that high, School can withhold last salary payment, but if you'll complain, matter must be resolved by Court.
1. Ask your employer: 'Can you tell me please, address and ph. no of SAFEA (Foreign Expert Bureau)?'
This Q will assure your employer will stop bothering you with unreasonable demands. SAFEA is also acting as mediator between Chinese Co. and foreign employee.
2. Enter 'SAFEA' in search above for address and contact no. of Foreign Expert Bureau in your Province.
Dial them and ask for help and advice. Best IMO, is to be polite and play stupid, while talking with Government. Offer them detailed explanation of the problem over email, i.e. ask for answering SAFEA's agent email address and email them explanation of troubles.
I am not sure about the end game of your problem, but SAFEA might tell you, you must exit China and return with proper procedure (new Z).
As I understand, you didn't break Chinese law by your action, but your employer acted against Chinese visa law.
SAFEA will for sure master your employer, so you might stop all harassment with no.1, because your employer doesn't want to deal with Gov. anyhow.
I have an excellent experience with FEB, and I dialled them first time, while working with F visa. Usually, I warn my employer on Contract violations, and if no change, I hit the phone.
Good luck!
ScrewIT:
Thanks mate!
1. I didn't go against the contract rather worked exactly as my contract says. Problem isn't between me and my employer breaching contracts rather with the police officer telling me I have violated the law despite providing all evidences including signed contract from day 1. Can SAFEA help in this case even if my employer has gone wrong?
2. I don't give a half flying flick about getting another job here since I am done with it but I can't assimilate the bs they are putting on me. They already handed me over a notice of fine today, saying I should pay it till tomorrow despite the notice says I should pay within 15 days.
3. Do you think SAFEA could be of any help in this?
ScrewIT:
Employer got fined 5000 only while all the crap is poured on my butts which is hurting my cracks. I have been polite and cooperated for I was sure if something is wrong, it must be from employer side since I have all the documented proofs. Didn't consult my embassy yet but I sure will take it till the end if this is what they are pushing me for.
Will try try safea as well by morning since I am sitting on a volcano since this morning.
icnif77:
It's kind of alarming, Police handed you notice about the fine.
I would still seek advice from FEB. As I wrote above, it wasn't your action which violated Chinese Visa law.
Usually, when Q is about FT's grave violations of Contract or Chinese law, PSB (Exit Entry police) is very quick. You must exit China in 7-days.
I don't think, money fine is enforceable that way. I think, it's scare tactic.
You could also dial your Embassy in Beijing and seek an advice. I bet, they'll say it's 'scare tactic'.
At my 1st call to FEB in 2010, I just told them, it's out of my hands, under which visa I am working in China. That is Chinese Co. choice and responsibility. I got my last pay and new Z visa offer from employer.
You might have to work on SAFEA's phone no. It's not like somebody's sitting by the phone and waiting for your call. But, don't give up even for several days, till somebody won't answer the phone.
ScrewIT:
Fine notice is...you shall come by tomorrow afternoon and pay the fine in presence of police. Is this a joke? It's not written on the notice rather verbal order from them.
Will be be calling SAFEA by morning and see if they can assist?
sorrel:
@ScrewIT
tell them that you are not allowed (by your country) do anything until you are accompanied by an embassy official and have everything in writing.
icnif77:
Just answer 'Sorry, I lost my ATM card. I need few days to get new one.' Call FEB next.
It's not 'if they can assist', SAFEA will assist you for sure. That is their job. They issue Foreign Expert Cert., and they will assist foreigner at any violations/problems in China.
I am talking out of my own experience. I dialled SAFEA in 5 Provinces at least, and I've always got positive resolution of my problems.
ScrewIT:
Thanks icniff77: waiting till morning as I am sending all details to my embassy as well.
Shining_brow:
What Sorrel suggested!
Sounds like a con - because no-one is telling you (verbally or in writing) precisely what it is that you apparently did wrong!
It also sounds like someone in the police force is involved in the scam.
From now on, EVERY conversation you have with them you record! Doesn't matter if you understand a word of it or not, have it all recorded.
Also remind them - unless they can actually produce PROOF of an allegation, the fine is irrelevant. Also point out that it's currently looking very much like official corruption - which can be punishable by execution in this country.
And - yes, SAFEA. AND your embassy!
Without knowing details, I'd say it's a bluff.
If Contract has provision about 'if party B breach the Contract must pay fine in amount of 20k Rmb' that must be resolved in Chinese Court, I think.
If your salary is that high, School can withhold last salary payment, but if you'll complain, matter must be resolved by Court.
1. Ask your employer: 'Can you tell me please, address and ph. no of SAFEA (Foreign Expert Bureau)?'
This Q will assure your employer will stop bothering you with unreasonable demands. SAFEA is also acting as mediator between Chinese Co. and foreign employee.
2. Enter 'SAFEA' in search above for address and contact no. of Foreign Expert Bureau in your Province.
Dial them and ask for help and advice. Best IMO, is to be polite and play stupid, while talking with Government. Offer them detailed explanation of the problem over email, i.e. ask for answering SAFEA's agent email address and email them explanation of troubles.
I am not sure about the end game of your problem, but SAFEA might tell you, you must exit China and return with proper procedure (new Z).
As I understand, you didn't break Chinese law by your action, but your employer acted against Chinese visa law.
SAFEA will for sure master your employer, so you might stop all harassment with no.1, because your employer doesn't want to deal with Gov. anyhow.
I have an excellent experience with FEB, and I dialled them first time, while working with F visa. Usually, I warn my employer on Contract violations, and if no change, I hit the phone.
Good luck!
ScrewIT:
Thanks mate!
1. I didn't go against the contract rather worked exactly as my contract says. Problem isn't between me and my employer breaching contracts rather with the police officer telling me I have violated the law despite providing all evidences including signed contract from day 1. Can SAFEA help in this case even if my employer has gone wrong?
2. I don't give a half flying flick about getting another job here since I am done with it but I can't assimilate the bs they are putting on me. They already handed me over a notice of fine today, saying I should pay it till tomorrow despite the notice says I should pay within 15 days.
3. Do you think SAFEA could be of any help in this?
ScrewIT:
Employer got fined 5000 only while all the crap is poured on my butts which is hurting my cracks. I have been polite and cooperated for I was sure if something is wrong, it must be from employer side since I have all the documented proofs. Didn't consult my embassy yet but I sure will take it till the end if this is what they are pushing me for.
Will try try safea as well by morning since I am sitting on a volcano since this morning.
icnif77:
It's kind of alarming, Police handed you notice about the fine.
I would still seek advice from FEB. As I wrote above, it wasn't your action which violated Chinese Visa law.
Usually, when Q is about FT's grave violations of Contract or Chinese law, PSB (Exit Entry police) is very quick. You must exit China in 7-days.
I don't think, money fine is enforceable that way. I think, it's scare tactic.
You could also dial your Embassy in Beijing and seek an advice. I bet, they'll say it's 'scare tactic'.
At my 1st call to FEB in 2010, I just told them, it's out of my hands, under which visa I am working in China. That is Chinese Co. choice and responsibility. I got my last pay and new Z visa offer from employer.
You might have to work on SAFEA's phone no. It's not like somebody's sitting by the phone and waiting for your call. But, don't give up even for several days, till somebody won't answer the phone.
ScrewIT:
Fine notice is...you shall come by tomorrow afternoon and pay the fine in presence of police. Is this a joke? It's not written on the notice rather verbal order from them.
Will be be calling SAFEA by morning and see if they can assist?
sorrel:
@ScrewIT
tell them that you are not allowed (by your country) do anything until you are accompanied by an embassy official and have everything in writing.
icnif77:
Just answer 'Sorry, I lost my ATM card. I need few days to get new one.' Call FEB next.
It's not 'if they can assist', SAFEA will assist you for sure. That is their job. They issue Foreign Expert Cert., and they will assist foreigner at any violations/problems in China.
I am talking out of my own experience. I dialled SAFEA in 5 Provinces at least, and I've always got positive resolution of my problems.
ScrewIT:
Thanks icniff77: waiting till morning as I am sending all details to my embassy as well.
Shining_brow:
What Sorrel suggested!
Sounds like a con - because no-one is telling you (verbally or in writing) precisely what it is that you apparently did wrong!
It also sounds like someone in the police force is involved in the scam.
From now on, EVERY conversation you have with them you record! Doesn't matter if you understand a word of it or not, have it all recorded.
Also remind them - unless they can actually produce PROOF of an allegation, the fine is irrelevant. Also point out that it's currently looking very much like official corruption - which can be punishable by execution in this country.
And - yes, SAFEA. AND your embassy!
Sounds like a scam to me.
Is the school in financial difficulty? Maybe they asked some mates to turn up to try scam money from you.
If you have been here for a few years the local population Police will already know everything about you.
I would call their bluff.
ScrewIT:
This is the whole thing for they denied to hand me over an original copy of the fine notice. School isn't in any financial difficulty and still wanted me to continue working with them since its almost overcrowded by students. Every morning I cross the local police station while going to work, impossible for them not to know my details.
icnif77:
That's BS then for sure. What did you get photo copy of fine? Just go with no. 1 above. Then exhale, and dial FEB from our link.
ScotsAlan:
Best thing to do tonight dude would be to sleep on it. Don't get wound up too much. Listen to what sorrel and icniff say. They are experts. Tomorrow is a new day. And hopefully there will be more answers for you to digest. It wont all happen instantly. Good luck :-)
Write an email and ask for a written explanation of what is going on, outlining the fact that you have not received any complaints up until then.
include everything that occurred in the conversation(
, sort of a 'he said/she said' thing as soon as you can so what you remember of the conversation is still fresh.
go into as much detail as you can.
Maybe mention that you have contacted your embassy about this, with all the information of the encounters, maybe something like - 'i thought it best to contact my friend in my embassy about this.' Although you could hold off this for a later email.
but document everything and send it to them so your principle is forced to confirm/deny in email.
Don't rely on verbal interactions as Chinese 'memory' and 'ability to understand' is quite poor at times like this.
ScrewIT:
I have all the mails record from the very first email regarding the job to the contracts I have signed throughout. Police denying to give me a single paper even the fine notice rather asked me to visit their office by morning and pay the fine in their presence. I am at the brink of quitting China but won't go with this on my tail. Just wondering if I can expect a fair trial from courts.
sorrel:
it sounds like it is time to get your embassy involved.
Even though they won't be able to do much, maybe the mention of doing this could put the breaks on.
Having said this, things are unlikely to be settled fairly in a court local to where you are as there may be guanxi involved and a wider scam.
A court case would be a long haul thing and this is what some extorters bank on.
be prepared to get out of Dodge at short notice.
could it be that your school knows you don't want to stay and want to get out of paying your final salary and anything else owing?
maybe just email your principle and play the 'dumb foreigner' and say you need a detailed understanding, written in English, as to what is going on.
ScrewIT:
Got my embassy in line already. Well! I will spend 400000 by taking it to the Supreme Court had local court play with me but I am going to fix it before leaving.
My my school has no issue with me rather they want me to continue working with them since my school is doing too good as compared to others in the area which is where the problem seems to be coming from.
Janosik:
@ScrewIT
No, you w'nt spend so much to take to the highest level.
When I said expensive I meant 10,000 - 20,000 USD.
I have some experience with courts in China ...
The local police are prohibited from doing anything with a foreigner, you are being scammed, my uncle once had a fight that cost him a lot of money here and put 7 people in the hospital, the local police could not ask him anything until the PSB showed up the next morning at the police station, when a foreigner is involved, the loss of face by China overrides any petty local problem. He was threatened at the station all night but did not talk until the PSB arrived.
I had a friend involved in a motor bike accident, same thing, local police had to wait for the PSB to show up at the station.
all this being said if your in a small town, you are basically screwed though, if he was in the miiltary, the owner or manager of your school, you should do a midnight run, change your passport and start over. most local schools in small towns give the local police free classes for there children in exchange for whatever favors they need in the future.
ScrewIT:
Not a small town neither I am going for a midnight run since I have already made my mind to give up on China but will go with the dignity I came here with. I have record of everything from the very first step I was invited for a job. I will go but will drown them before going. We aren't a joke rather people invited to come here and work.
whocaresreally:
The office where you got your z visa stamped and took your photo is where you need to be to get your retribution. i noticed you said the school got a fine, did they give your a proper visa, do they a proper permit for hiring a foreign teacher or did an agent get your visa, do they have a safe location for the school with camera mounted at the entrance. the local police are responsible for a safety and security check of the school twice a year and can issue fines, they are also responsible for making sure you live in safe residence, another fine.
ScrewIT:
I have a proper visa, they processed my visa through a company which has a license issued by government. I have a contract with the school and I have a valid visa plus cert. School is secure since it's located in the middle of the busiest county with a government school located next to it and a police station within 50 meters radius. There are cameras even in the classroom and all my lessons go online and get shared with parents and head office. My residence is safe enough since I registered my address with police, had there been an issue they would have told me long ago.
whocaresreally:
I think you have a good case, working cameras an no one ever said a word about your working behavior or put it in writing. Something really stinks.
Janosik:
Come on.
PSB is public security bureau.
In other words police ...
The problem is not local or 'global'.
The problem is how the papers were don - for that you need to be able to read Chinese - if you cannot you can find a friend to help you.
Then all will be clear.
The work permit is bound with company and position If anything does not fit so it's illegal act.
Relatively easy to find out.
Ask those individuals to go down to SAFEA or the PSB with you. I don't know why you didn't contact the PSB on your own in the first place.
Sounds to me like the schoo couldn't employ you legally so they paid another company to get you a work permit. I'm guessing your WP says something like "consultant " for XYZ company whereas you're actually working as a teacher for ABC company.
If this is the case then technically you're working illegally. BUT you wouldn't have known this. Speak to SAFEA urgently and explain the situation. You shouldn't have to pay a fine if the school have found a way to cheat the system. But then TIC so be ready for a quick flight out but don't let them know this.
Janosik:
Fine is one thing but totally separate from another things ...
Firstly OP shall find out what is his really legal status in China.
Then he can act accordingly
Hotwater:
Which is basically what I wrote! OP should firstly phone SAFEA for advice. Possibly get someone Chinese to check his WP to see what job is written on it AND the employer.
ironman510:
Totally agree with Hotwater, we're thinking on the same page. School A borrowed a license from friend school B.
Englteachted:
"Fine is one thing but totally separate from another things ..."
You're still here with your chinglish trying to act like a foreigner?
Janosik:
@Englteachted Oh my ... China should really do something to prevent accepting teachers like you ... You really like to have mental problems and apparently you are not even aware of it ... Do yourself a favour and visit a good psychiatrist! Just a friendly advice.
ScrewIT:
Interviewed by the school principle back in 2013 via Skype which fortunately I taped and have the copy. Asked for school license they showed me a license. Sent a contract and signed it. Got my work permit and applied for visa. Came to China and signed a contract with the school and have it. Three contracts so far since 2013. The company used to process my FEC and residence permit on behalf of school and the school probably paid for it. At least this is what I was told and I have these conversations in my email record. All of them. Going to call SAFEA and lets see what they have for me.
And remember, if they demand your passport, tell them your passport does not technically belong to you. It actually belongs to your government, or your soverign if you have one. If anyone asked me to give up my passport, I would say sorry, ask the queen. It belongs to her.
I agree with icnif77, your behavior breach was working for a school that wasn't allowed to have you, and you shouldn't be working there, so yes you were illegally working and that translates into behavior in Chinese as the excuse, so I'm willing to bet A. Your working permit wasn't registered to that school, next your working permit and the license that allows them to hire foreigners is in a different district in your city and or your working permit is from another company that they borrow the license from is located somewhere near by but not where you are working. That is illegal IF that's the case. A wrong working address is all it takes. Not your fault at all. Now I'm not you but first do as these guys tell you make those phone calls or better yet walk into their office, don't watse time, if you can't find them we can help you, just give us your district, city name and all the details you can, were pretty good at knowing what we're looking for and at in Chinese. Now the last chance deal, Ive lived in Asia for years, 14 years, Philippines, Korea, Japan and China, if nothing you do helps you at the end than pay the fine, try to ask not to have your Passport put on record for this issue, and move on man, hey this game can be dangerous and more risky if you let it continue. But try everything first, no the court won't help you because something is wrong with the school and your permit together made you illegal. So technically we and you must come to terms yout school made you illegal and you can't prove that in China. So the court will charge you. They are very basic with no trials. BYW tje lawyer would cost you more then Y20,000. I swear to god. It cost my friend Y35,000 for a lawyer to get him visitation rights to see his kid after divorce.
Everyone needs to understand one thing about working as a foreigner in China, you are responsible for your own legal status in China. That is the law. Ironman and Hotwater seem to have hit it on the head. You yourself said it, your FEC was issued through another company. Unless this was your first gig in China that should have been a red flag.
ScrewIT:
I understand what you are saying and yes it is my first time here dealing with such shit. Worked in the Middle East and miss those people despite they could be stubborn as camels but would never try to shit around when it comes to work and papers because the government was responsible for everything. But here...they aren't telling me anything about my status or articles of the law which I have violated which is what I do not understand.
ironman510:
What's gonna suck more is after all this is said and done and he didn't walk away with a release letter and canceled copy of the expert book, well than it's gonna be so hard to get a new working permit. We had teachers return to our school 3 years later asking for a release letter. Maybe a new passport and new #number might be needed.
Reading replies on this thread, PSB (Entry Exit Police) won't be of much help to foreigner in China at Contract violations. I did contact them in Dalian in 2012 and they directed me to my Embassy for help with School's Contract violation -late pay and more, beside their non-existent English.
Then, I dialed SAFEA and matter was resolved in a week.
So again, anybody in similar troubles while working in China, enter 'SAFEA' in search above for address and contact no. in your Province. Dial them and ask for help and advice.
I see some good advise for your problem(. Seems like some seriously dodgy shiite going on. If it was me, I would do the following (assuming you still have your passport in your possession).
1) If you just got paid for the month. I would pack all my important stuff, etc. and get the fook outta dodge.
2) if you get paid soon from the employer, maybe wait and get paid, then haul arse.
3) or just get the fook outta dodge, and screw the monthly pay.
Sounds to me you are in a dangerous situation with some shady/corrupt people who are on a power trip of some kind. I wouldnt waste my time hanging around to see if this is the case or not.
Seems the people who are supposed to be there to protect you...ARENT DOING SO.
For me, better to be paranoid and GTF outta dodge, than sit around and expect to get detained for whatever reason.
(lastly, if you dont have your passport....get to your embassy and get a new one issused, then get out of china !!!)
ScrewIT:
I have my passport with me and yes, would never give it to them. I will get the fork outta here but it is hurting me that the people who have been so nice and pleading me to stay further turned out to be shiiting me.
Hotwater:
From their point ofr view they won't have been shitting you. I guess you've been here long enough now to know that the majority of Chinese people aqnd businesses will find ways to work around the law, even when they don't need to.
This will suit them until the sh*t hits the fan....then they'll start arse covering which is what is happening now.
What amazes me is that the police want to fine you 20,000 yet only fine the school 5,000! The school could get a fine much bigger than that and it's interesting that they aren't. Makes you wonder who the principal knows in the local police station........
ironman510:
But if he doesn't get a release letter and canceled expert cert copy than he won't be allowed to get a new working permit.
silverbutton1:
As per release letter and/or FEC. I do know for a fact back in 2003, many teachers were "midnight running" from their respective contracts due to a myriad of reasons in South Korea. Usually it was b/c of shady, greedy, unethical korean hogwon owners (hogwon is a ESL school to learn conversation English).
They would leave the country, and get a new passport issued, and not mention any previous employment in said country. The new Korean employer/school wouldnt be able to check and see if said teacher was on the korean blacklist, b/c the database was done via the passport number, NOT the name.
Again, this was South Korea over a decade ago. It might still be the same there.
As for China, it MIGHT be done the same as South Korea. MAybe someone here would know the answer to this dilema. Good Luck !
Can I ask where you are from? I might have an idea to help you out, a sneaky method, it worked for my friend last month and others years ago. Now if you are an American and or you come from a country that changes the passport number when renewing it and you have your embassy near by, than why not start the "clean escape route", get a new passport and than take to HK and find Forever Bright Visa service and IF you are an American than they can get your passport a new visa 10 year Business or 1 year Tourist and return to China and look for a job in Shenzhen ( I can help you with a job.) and than you are ready to start over again. Why go this route? Because I am 99% sure you can't get your release letter nor your canceled copy of your expert cert, therefor you won't be allowed to get another job in China anywhere without those documents these days. Because hey, your visa is from company B, not company A. So where and how can you get your release letter? So while many will disagree, I'm simply thinking about your status and how to keep it safe in China after this mess is over.
ScrewIT:
Thank you for your help though I am not American rather I can stay without a visa in China with my passport for 14 days.
I am not looking for jobs here anymore since I am done with the peanuts and bs I have to face at the moment. I have a already got a job offer from UAE starting from next academic term. I wont fly over this country had it was about me. My poor girl is what I have to think about so I have decided to take her out with me. Rest I wont pay a penny no matter what comes out of it.
My country does change passport number but it wont be necessary. Called my manager that I am going to SAFEA and she is pleading me not to go and telling me horror stories from 'Oedipus Rex' but I do realize the 'Titanic' is going to sink in her company. Negotiations and I guess I was a law student before completing my masters.
ironman510:
Sounds good man, but at the very least try to get the release letter and canceled copy of your expert cert, just incase.
icnif77:
Chinese employers don't want to deal with FEB, and since your boss acted that way, all troubles you have are unjustified. IMO.
The SAFEA ph. no. and address on our link are Provincial SAFEA Headquarters, not the city's SAFEA, where you got your FEC. You can see that from address on web link.
I find that better, because no guanxi boss can influence them. Once they hear your troubles, they'll call either your employer directly or they will direct local SAFEA to clear the matter with your boss.
Pls, let us know about resolution of your problem.
icnif77:
Iron has point: if you are right and them wrong, take everything it belongs to you from the School. The most important are Release letter and FEC Cancel Cert., beside your last pay. Just demand it from SAFEA. By Chinese law, your employer must submit both docs. in 30-days after your last working day.
You will need both documents, if you by any chance want to return and work legally (new Working permit) in China again.
Don't talk about your future plans with anybody, in other words 'always leave doors open, 'cause you never know what future will bring.....'
A) very very odd that the school only gets fined 5000, but you are (apparently) getting fined 20000. That normally only happens for visa overstays... Everything else, the school is actually responsible for.
B) Also very odd that the police are fining you for a work violation - that should actually be the PSB's role! They're the ones that issue the visa - not the police.
Given than they're refusing to actually give you any documentation regarding what the fine is for - it sounds so much like a scam!
Definitely contact your embassy - at the very least, they may want a heads-up on one of their citizens who may end up needed a medivac. The police (ha!) refusing to give details of a fine, and demanding payment within 1 day, as against 15... I'm sure they'd be at least slightly interested in that (though, perhaps not)
My suspicion is - either a basic scam... or G20 has started showing up cobwebs and skeletons in closets. I've just been asked to re-register with the police, after some other housing registration form gets done for this community... AND I've heard that visas are going to be tougher to get in the next couple of months!
