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Posts: 31

Governor

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Q: Can I get justice in...proceedings

Thank you all for your feedback and suggestions on the previous post.

 

After paying fine PSB(/sorry, they were from local PSB not common police) briefed me on the whole case and gave me instructions for future endeavors.

The kindergarten did not have license to hire FT so the company helped them in dodging the system without telling me about it. Company kept my FEC throughout saying it belongs to them(email on record)  Funny part is company and kindergarten still fined only 5000 each (sorry, it was not in my hands and someone else decided). Good or perhaps an unusual result, I can stay and work here for another employer with proper documents. I have not been asked to leave or anything like that. Paid the fine and "OK, you can find another employer and renew your FEC and RP". (Another University has offered me contract from September) Strange, isn't it? 

 

I forwarded the case to embassy and they are going to file a case with foreign expert bureau since I have provided all the proofs including contracts and emails I have received from start till now. Embassy also called employer(company) to compensate the fine or else case will be forwarded to an attribution court. Employer is freaking out now, accepts that they did this but refused to pay for the fine amount. Threatening me that I will be blacklisted and deported and so on while I answered with, "I am ready for that since I have another job waiting for and it will be a relief to get out of here". 

 

Embassy instructions are to wait till Monday, they will give it another try and then file a case to foreign expert bureau and court.  Then I shall visit foreign expert bureau in person with all details. 

 

Will update on employer and final result as soon something is "transpired". lol 

 

 

 

 

7 years 46 weeks ago in  Visa & Legalities - China

 
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Emperor

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You can dial SAFEA (Foreign Expert Bureau) by yourself. I do it often, and I always received positive solution of my problems. I bet, you would save 20k Rmb you paid for the fine.

 

Enter 'SAFEA' in search above for address and contact no. in your Province. Did I tell you that once already?

 

Good luck!

ScrewIT:

I did call them but they weren't able to communicate and asked me to get a Chinese person on the call. Embassy will deal with them since they have interpreters, also I want that to be dealt by embassy and luckily embassy has discussed with lawyer thus they know how to deal with them. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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icnif77:

That happened to me in Henan this year. My student dialed them, and then I communicated with SAFEA over the email.

It's good, that your Embassy will take over the matter. I've never thought about that. I just do it myself. LOL.

How did they get 20k Rmb out of you? You didn't give, did you? I know, I wouldn't ....

If your employer didn't have 'laowai hire authorisation', you shouldn't pay the fine. That isn't your responsibility, but it's internal Chinese matter and employees aren't required to check the employers books, before signing the Contract. However, I got burned on similar matter in 2014, and now I always want to see 'laowai hire auth.', before I ink the Contract.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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ScrewIT:

Embassy asked and helped in paying fine to avoid blacklisting or deportation. So things are now officially dealt by embassy. Employer is playing cards but I guess embassy does know. Embassy asked me not to communicate with employer if they are threatening you and leave it to us. Embassy won't care, hadn't I given them the complete file of proofs. I have actually everything well documented and lawyer suggests I should ask for more, lol... I just want the fine amount to be paid back and a letter to be issued that employer did it without letting me know. That's it. If they don't, I guess they are going to loose their license and further fines awaiting. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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icnif77:

Remember something, before you think about 'blacklisting' BS: 'no Chinese employer wants to deal with SAFEA!'

None! And especially not the Training mills. Public Schools are a bit more relaxed, but still no employer in China wants call from SAFEA.

SAFEA is Gov. org., which grants 'laowai hire authorization' to the Schools in China.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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ScrewIT:

I know that from the day employer implored not to go to SAFEA, I just wanted to present myself in PSB from where I have cleared myself. Now embassy has lawyers to discuss and get advice from after which embassy decided to contact employer and SAFEA. Let's see where does it end? 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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icnif77:

You didn't ask your employer: 'Can you tell me pls, address of SAFEA?'

7 years 46 weeks ago
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ScrewIT:

I have asked employer already but they seem to be playing cards of 'being nice to me' 'threats of getting blacklisted ' etc. In short tried to make me not go to SAFEA because they are certain I have enough documents to support my case. Embassy head of chancery has talked to employer and asked to pay fine or else matter will be taken into court. Company is now asking kindergarten to pay and vice versa. Something will transpire of it till tomorrow...

7 years 46 weeks ago
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icnif77:

Once, you ask your employer that Q, everything get in order very quick.

Only 'blacklisting' possible I see it is at SAFEA, because they won't issue new Working permit (FEC), if FT have history of grave Contract violations. However, I mostly talk out of my experience in China, and I didn't experienced such troubles yet.

I exchanged few emails with teacher from California, with whom I worked in Fujian in 2013. Few months after I left, he was dismissed and forced to exit China in 7-days. He asked me for the help with SAFEA, since I am in China, but he didn't want to tell me, why he was dismissed, so I didn't call SAFEA in his name.

I guess, he is unable to secure new employment in China, because new employer can't get new WP, because of SAFEA's block.

IMO, that's the only 'blacklisting' I see possible, which requires FT's grave Contract violations, and if no such violations, 'blacklisting' is only employer's BS threat.

Everything will work well in your example, no worries. However, you should expect some fuk-up down the road, as it is usual in China.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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7 years 46 weeks ago
 
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Posts: 19790

Emperor

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You can dial SAFEA (Foreign Expert Bureau) by yourself. I do it often, and I always received positive solution of my problems. I bet, you would save 20k Rmb you paid for the fine.

 

Enter 'SAFEA' in search above for address and contact no. in your Province. Did I tell you that once already?

 

Good luck!

ScrewIT:

I did call them but they weren't able to communicate and asked me to get a Chinese person on the call. Embassy will deal with them since they have interpreters, also I want that to be dealt by embassy and luckily embassy has discussed with lawyer thus they know how to deal with them. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

icnif77:

That happened to me in Henan this year. My student dialed them, and then I communicated with SAFEA over the email.

It's good, that your Embassy will take over the matter. I've never thought about that. I just do it myself. LOL.

How did they get 20k Rmb out of you? You didn't give, did you? I know, I wouldn't ....

If your employer didn't have 'laowai hire authorisation', you shouldn't pay the fine. That isn't your responsibility, but it's internal Chinese matter and employees aren't required to check the employers books, before signing the Contract. However, I got burned on similar matter in 2014, and now I always want to see 'laowai hire auth.', before I ink the Contract.

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

ScrewIT:

Embassy asked and helped in paying fine to avoid blacklisting or deportation. So things are now officially dealt by embassy. Employer is playing cards but I guess embassy does know. Embassy asked me not to communicate with employer if they are threatening you and leave it to us. Embassy won't care, hadn't I given them the complete file of proofs. I have actually everything well documented and lawyer suggests I should ask for more, lol... I just want the fine amount to be paid back and a letter to be issued that employer did it without letting me know. That's it. If they don't, I guess they are going to loose their license and further fines awaiting. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

icnif77:

Remember something, before you think about 'blacklisting' BS: 'no Chinese employer wants to deal with SAFEA!'

None! And especially not the Training mills. Public Schools are a bit more relaxed, but still no employer in China wants call from SAFEA.

SAFEA is Gov. org., which grants 'laowai hire authorization' to the Schools in China.

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

ScrewIT:

I know that from the day employer implored not to go to SAFEA, I just wanted to present myself in PSB from where I have cleared myself. Now embassy has lawyers to discuss and get advice from after which embassy decided to contact employer and SAFEA. Let's see where does it end? 

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

icnif77:

You didn't ask your employer: 'Can you tell me pls, address of SAFEA?'

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

ScrewIT:

I have asked employer already but they seem to be playing cards of 'being nice to me' 'threats of getting blacklisted ' etc. In short tried to make me not go to SAFEA because they are certain I have enough documents to support my case. Embassy head of chancery has talked to employer and asked to pay fine or else matter will be taken into court. Company is now asking kindergarten to pay and vice versa. Something will transpire of it till tomorrow...

7 years 46 weeks ago
Report Abuse

icnif77:

Once, you ask your employer that Q, everything get in order very quick.

Only 'blacklisting' possible I see it is at SAFEA, because they won't issue new Working permit (FEC), if FT have history of grave Contract violations. However, I mostly talk out of my experience in China, and I didn't experienced such troubles yet.

I exchanged few emails with teacher from California, with whom I worked in Fujian in 2013. Few months after I left, he was dismissed and forced to exit China in 7-days. He asked me for the help with SAFEA, since I am in China, but he didn't want to tell me, why he was dismissed, so I didn't call SAFEA in his name.

I guess, he is unable to secure new employment in China, because new employer can't get new WP, because of SAFEA's block.

IMO, that's the only 'blacklisting' I see possible, which requires FT's grave Contract violations, and if no such violations, 'blacklisting' is only employer's BS threat.

Everything will work well in your example, no worries. However, you should expect some fuk-up down the road, as it is usual in China.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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7 years 46 weeks ago
 
Posts: 4421

Emperor

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Two questions: How and when will you get your release letter that will allow you get another FEC booklet? Thats a MUST have, you'll need it to change jobs.

ScrewIT:

I have already got the release letter. The threat of going to SAFEA worked well so far in getting my things back from employer except money which is now between embassy and employer. PSB officer also called employer to provide me all relevant documents so I can get another RP. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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ironman510:

Great man, so screw that last school, sorry you had to go through that.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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ScrewIT:

Thank you... Just trying to get over it 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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7 years 46 weeks ago
 
Posts: 308

Governor

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I'd say screw all these pro-SAFEA douchebags...SAFEA will issue you documents which cost them nothing...but not help you with the fine...face saving gestures a sand grain above lip service...Embassy is what matters...It isn't a chinese face...and the chinese owe you basically for entrapment.  

icnif77:

Bravo, again!

Embassy is the one who paid the fine, and of course they'll get funds back, if matter was unjustified.

Douchebagssurprise promoting SAFEA are actually acting against the Chinese employers, who are the biggest revenue payee to the website, aren't dey?

I am a bit different. I am promoting SAFEA just because of the rain coats.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

So, if you run afoul of the law the government should pay the fine? Do your homework. Stop trying to play the role of the victim

7 years 46 weeks ago
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seansarto:

Nothing worse than expats who try to use rationale for a their host nation f'cking them over...truly you are "experts" because you rationalize being a victim to assuage yer concessions...Host nation loves you fer that..it will continue to encroach upon your rationale until you promote it as your own...there is no reason this person or their embassy should be paying a fine for an employer to compromise their legality

7 years 46 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Yeah it sucks when people use logic, reason, reality as oppose to narcissism and other flawed thinking. This is a legal principle followed in just about every country, "ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law"

If some guy from Mexico comes to America and works on a student visa because the employer told them in writing that it's legal the judge will tell them the same thing. But simple minded people think reality is supposed to bend when they are affected. Rules apply in every situation, grow up. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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seansarto:

Comparing America's legal system to china's is exactly what i mean by you using flawed rationale to promote china's corruption..In America, the judge would take that ignorance into consideration and not fine the Mexican and f'kn go after the employer...A very different sentiment of law then the one you are ignorantly espousing. 

It is also well understood that mileus which promote an arbitrary understanding of laws and enforcements does nothing to inform its constituents of the existence or understanding of those laws...

7 years 46 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Name one case where someone not knowing the law led to a Not guilty finding or no punishments. 

Also fact , US law requires judges/ juries to look at circumstances when determining punishment. But punishment must fall between minimum and Maximum guidelines. Therefore even if the guy innocently made a mistake he must accept the minimum punishment.

In the OP's case he didn't get deported or jailed so of course they took his situation (school's lies) into consideration.  But that's just more facts and rational thinking

7 years 46 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Oh and by the way, again, "ignorance of the law...." ,is a principle of law in just about every country not  just the US. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Your thinking is seriously limited by the way. It's not a choice to go after the employer or employee, they go after both. But if the employee didn't know he'll get the minimum and the employer will get the max. 

7 years 46 weeks ago
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seansarto:

Don't insult me again, head up yer ass...Everything you've just said reiterates my own statement for the most part...But you are wrong on the minimum punishment, idiot..A judge can dismiss or discharge the sentencing...Judges in the US usually do that when they see such cases....Grow a brain, instead of slow a brain..you suffer from too much oxygen deprivation.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

A judge can only dismiss a case only if there is no evidence. Stop watching dramas.

7 years 46 weeks ago
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7 years 46 weeks ago
 
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Forward Question

Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change student visa to labourer one is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77