Robk:

Agree, 

Women aren't made the same way as men and it will not give the same results. It will just decrease her self-respect and make things worse. 

It will create more hatred/distrust for men and possibly lead her to find the same or even worse partners. 

xinyuren:

Her husband is a habitual cheater who cheated before and during the marriage and you blame her?  You must be a great catch.... lucky wife, yours.

coineineagh:

All we know about the situation is what was described from one side of the story, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't jump to conclusions about my own morality. I don't condone cheating; I just question the claim of this "innocent victim". Some Chinese women even consider going out to have a drink with other males to be cheating. I'm only suggesting that her husband might not cheat if she cared more for him, instead of trying to control him like property. But I'll repeat that I don't know enough about their situation to be sure it would matter.

flyingheart:

A most reasonable answer...but the question is, a human's desires have no limits.  You can never "out-do" other candidates when your partner have limitless desires.  Don't even think about it. 

Robk:

It depends on the desire. Partners usually actually leave subtle hints or even just directly want to talk about it but it gets ignored because one side just can't understand or cope. 

You never know, the guy could just desire being complimented once in a while, or has some kind of fetish with black underwear that his wife never wears that leads to his cheating. This is not uncommon. Men cheating is usually just as psychological as it is physical. 

Up to her to decide just how much he means to her and is their marriage worth trying to save. Some women have successfully done it. 

I heard about this one couple where the guy was cheating on his wife constantly. She could not figure out why and he was embarrassed to say it. Turns out he liked the women on top and she was traditional being always on the bottom. She found out... and simply saved her marriage by changing a sexual position. Guy stopped cheating and they are happy. Humans are weird like that... it is never just clear cut solution for everyone. 

Scandinavian:

Sure it might be the males nature to mate with as many females as possible. But when a man leaves the marriage office he has said that he'd stop doing just that. Maybe it is still his nature, but cheating makes him a dishonest person as he breaks a promise (yeah yeah, I know most civil marriages doesn't have the same moral mumbo jumbo as e.g. a church wedding, but still) 

flyingheart:

Or maybe it's just that this girl loved him too much.  I know of a Chinese playwright who divorced him eventually after being his love slave for over a decade.

Women can also cheat for better sex or a higher quality of life in one or more aspects. It's nature's design. Natural selection.  Our difference from monogamous and polygamous animals is that sometimes we can't make up our minds to join which group.  

mike695ca:

As someone who has also never cheated i agree with some of robs points. Communication is key, and men will cheat over stupid shit. Fortunately im smart enough tonsee that the first time you have sex with someone its always akward and bad. So no one night stands for me. I have come right out and said directly that if changes arent happening now, ill cheat. Its always worked for me. But i feel its too late now. He should have worked on the relationship. In my opinion these relationships are irreparable, people just settle for less.

xinyuren:

"...but men are designed to cheat.

This is a hilarious statement.  Designed by whom?  Sexual behavior is a societal construct.  Men are no more designed to cheat than women.  I love it when people who don't even understand science enough talk about these matters and make these bold statements.   But this is the biggest reason people support evolution.  They can cheat and lie and do anything and blame it on the "programming".  "We can't fight our programming", LOL.  This is extremely funny.

But if you even gave the slightest thought to the matter, you would see that cheating in a relationship benefits noone!  We are not animals living in the wild.  We live in a society with moral codes.  Cheating undermines the security of this society.  Nobody likes being cheated on.  So if you were "programmed" cheat, your genes are undesirable by the community. This was "confirmed" by our local evolution scientist, Dr. Monkey.  I'm not going to turn your thread into the other one, but  I will call you out on the most cowardly of all cop-outs.   I can see you now, "Oh, baby, we need to divorce because my programming to cheat is kicking in and we both know it's useless for me to fight it".  So much for your future kids. And by the way, A cheater is both weak and dishonest and bad. Nobody goes out to find weak, dishonest partners.

Robk:

@xinyuren - Okay, so the purpose of humanity or any species is not survival?

And isn't part of ensuring survival... reproduction at its highest capacity?

Men produce billions of sperm systematically... so they can just reproduce with one partner? I don't think so... don't be an idiot. 

You didn't do anything to argue against the points, you just sounded like you talk to women like an imbecile. Yes, men are PROGRAMMED to cheat (not to cheat but many have strong urges to when given the chance or seeing highly attractive females) or have multiple partners... you don't know that? Sex or reproduction is not a social thing (at least NOT mainly). It is include chemical reactions (hormones, DUH) and electrical impulses.

xinyuren:

I assume you didn't ace biology, right?   The male testes produce millions of sperm to ensure that one can make it to the egg for fertilization.  And on many occasions even that's not enough.  This has nothing to do with multiple partners. Our species doesn't need to cheat to survive. We need to be responsible and raise our families in a caring environment. Cheating does not promote this.

And I would love to see you duke it out with your fellow evolutionist, Mr. Monkey, who makes exactly the opposite argument about qualities such as justice, love, and fidelity.  He say these qualities are complementary to the evolution process because they benefit the society.  He says an evolved creature will inevitably gain these faculties because it helps the species.  Which one of you is right?  You evolutionists are contradicting yourselves.

And I love the way you like to throw around words like "programmed" and "designed" because......Never mind, I'll just sit back and laugh.

Robk:

Yeah, I know that.

I am not talking evolution and what we SHOULD become... I am saying this is more or less the SOURCE code (our DNA). I am not applying my opinion of cheating or not into it... I thinking cheating is wrong too. 

It is simply where we came from and cells/organisms don't simply turn off their survival instincts because it offends you or anyone else. 

"In most animals, including humans, sex is determined genetically, but in some species it can be determined due to social, environmental or other factors. For example,Cymothoa exigua changes sex depending on the number of females present in the vicinity."

This is why I used the words "programmed" or "designed" as it is in our genetic make-up to seek out multiple healthy partners. If you are an Alpha male, then you obviously receive a ton of female attention. In the animal kingdom, it would be the duty of the Alpha male to spread his seed to ensure the next generation is stronger, smarter and more adaptive to their surroundings. 

But I guess you are a delta or something... so you wouldn't know that. Are you purposely being dense? 

xinyuren:

I think you're the one being dense.  You just gave a definition that refers to animals like amphibians who change gender under some circumstances.  Are you implying that it's in our genes to change gender or become homosexual?  I'm not the dense one here. If you want to use some proof from a textbook, it should at least apply to your argument.  This is not any proof!  You say cheating by humans is a survival instinct.  Says you.  Without any scientific proof.   So perhaps you can get this thru my dense head with some actual, real science?  You're running into the same trap as Dr. Monkey.  You're long on dogma that has been drilled into you since childhood, but short on actual facts to back them up.  Keep trying.  I won't hold my breath, though.

Robk:

The lovely eChina cities went retarded and posted a broken up quote. 

To summarize what it is saying: Humans rely on GOOD genetics to reproduce... our sexuality or CONTROL of it does not have to do with society or our enviroment as you suggested it does or should.

Our ancestors didn't worry about "cheating", they would laugh in your face and probably bury a stone axe in your head. Society has changed but our basic carnal desires have not... 

Polygamy came before monogamy. And I think the new trend is just... being open-minded and you don't need titles to enjoy someone's company.

Anyway, enough of that.

xinyuren:

Are you Arabic?  This is the same claim they make in the middle-east when they make their women dress in clothing from head to toe!  LOL, you sound like someone with no self control, like an animal.  I bet you think it's the woman's fault if she gets raped too, right?  Because rapists never have bad character.  If you are indeed married, I'm pretty sure you cheat often because you are doing a rather good job of defending "habitual cheaters".  I'm not assuming your morality now.  You have it displayed in your comments here.  It's very clear.

 Men don't cheat because of "programming".  They cheat because of personal weakness.   No excuses.  No blaming others.  A marriage comes with a moral obligation to maintain fidelity.  If someone crosses that line, they are the blame.  While there are mitigating circumstances that come into play, it is up to both parties to communicate and work together rather than just go off screwing other people.

xinyuren:

And your comment about "scraping out" semen from competitors?  Where the hell you get that from???  Unless a women is having a gang bang, by the time she is with her next sex partner the semen has already done it's job!  This is the most basic of basic facts about sex.  You think semen just hangs around the vaginal canal for days at a time?  The ignorance is rampant on this forum.  Designed for multiple partners, scraping competitors semen, wanting a "stud" during ovulation (as opposed to just being horny).... honestly, we're not living in the sixties ( and there is good reason why the free love movement ended).  Pick up a text book before you write something.

Robk:

xinyuren - are you insecure or something? 

Accept the fact that MEN are designed to spread their seed. Sure, we can control with who, where and how we do that.... but that's is the core of our design. 

A women that better understands that can use it to her advantage instead of acting like an ignorant fool. Some women save marriages by having "open-relationships" like Will Smith and his wife. Some are bi-sexual and find it interesting to find a third with their husbands. 

I just told you I have never cheated in my life, but that doesn't mean I don't get the urge. Men cheat due to a complex mixture of many things, psychology, physical attraction, hormones, biological demands, many they are in a SOCIETY that does push it... like China for example. 

In China, lots of men consider themselves "successful" when they have a xiao san or a pao you (mistress or screw buddy). They ask the other guys about it like it gives them face. 

You can live in wonderland my friend, but I live on Earth. 

xinyuren:

So Chinese people have the "urge" to spit and crap everywhere means they were "programmed" to do this, right?"      Thank you for your scientific insight about these "facts".   Chinese people are "designed" to avoid queuing in line.  They are "programmed" to stare at foreigners.

If this really is the case, then why do we complain?  If we are all following our "design" and noone is responsible for their actions, there should be no outrage against adultery, spitting and crapping in the streets, staring at us, and the many things we bitch about daily here. You have no evidence for you factual claims. I should just accept the "fact", right? No questioning the science, right? Because the fact we have the urge is plenty enough proof! LOL!

It's all in the programming. We are evolving. Just be happy

xinyuren:

Your comments about Chinese society do not help your argument.  In fact weaken it.  Are you saying Chinese men's proclivity for mistresses helps Chinese society?  What about the women and the family?  Isn't evolution supposed to help society? Moreover you don't know anything about Will Smith's marriage (are you a close friend?) They could get divorced tomorrow and your whole argument is out the window. It's best not to speak of things you know nothing about.  You're going the wrong way on your arguments.  In fact, I doubt you even have the slightest idea what you're arguing.

mike695ca:

I dont think anyone can really speak of this topic in such absolutes. Even proper biologists. The whole field is based on hypothesis and educated guesses. Rob and coin might be right that men and women are meant to cheat. We are essentially animals. But then why do we feel any emotion towards family at all? So maybe xin and by proxy, dr monkey are right, and emotions are biological factors in reproduction. But perhaps they are two different things? Men fuck to produce babies, as many babies as possible but feel love in order to help them survive. Not the same thing. But if its all down to biology then why do women get hornier during pregnancy or periods or times when mating isnt optomal? There are toooo many questions for anyone to act like theu KNOW anything. You also have the nature vs nurture arguments. One being that society has a greater influence on our behaviours than any biological factors, and in our society cheating is wrong. The fact that us foreigners are completly seperated by our societies watchful eyes , as well as being excluded from Chinas could well be a reason we have so many dirtbag foreigners here. And if you agree with that then the biological argument is kind of moot. Eithet way none of us know shit. We just feel cheating is wrong and that guys a douche.

Robk:

Hey Mike, 

Are you sure they feel hornier? 

Could be because of their hormones are way out of wack (which explains a lot... like their moodiness, weird cravings for food)... 

Another thought is that many females are afraid their husbands will cheat on them. I guess a lot of men are kind of turned off at the idea of sleeping with their pregnant wife (there is a myth that sex during pregnancy can hurt the baby... not true but lots believe it lol) and maybe the do play around.  

I think it is mainly the former but the latter probably does enter their minds as well. 

mike695ca:

Well ive heard their hormone go out of whack, but is it a bi product of having a baby? Some people say that all all of it is tied up in evolution and survival. But perhaps your right and it is just fear. I dont know shit haha

coineineagh:

@xinyuren: my first wife cheated 6 weeks after the wedding, because the money was gone and she moved on to a millionaire. despite this, i can still recognize that people cheat for different reasons/motivations/urges. some cases are worse than others. i know that chinese often cheat with the intention of starting a relationship. i have more reason than most to be butthurt about infidelity, so i can only imagine what spurred you to go all inquisition on me for my comments. was it worse than what happened to me? if not, lighten up. @mike: i did study biology, and i don't like how you equate well-researched phenomena to guesswork, supposition and opinions. the stuff i said is quite well tested. we're closely related to bonobo's, and one of the few sexual taboos they have is grandparent-grandchild. almost anything else goes for them. penis shape is adapted to the promiscuity of the species. chimps are proportionally better endowed than humans, while the gorillas have a 3cm penis. gorillas are not very promiscuous; all the ladies love the silverback, who undergoes neurochemical changes. no other males can compete without challenging the silverback.

xinyuren:

 I have no personal crusade against you, coineineagh.  I have a problem with people who make "scientific" comments without scientific facts.  Saying we are programmed to cheat is not a scientific fact and I challenged it.  If by programming you mean instinct and your only defense for this is because we have sexual urges, your statements are on very shaky ground.  We also have free will and strength of character.  This is where the fault lies.   I'm sorry about your divorce, but there is no basis to believe she was programmed to cheat on you. All the evidence points to her poor moral character.

coineineagh:

my comments *are* based on scientific facts. Your use of the term 'programmed' suggests your misunderstanding of what i meant. being biologically designed for promiscuity is physical (perhaps neurochemical) and not psychological. we aren't incapable of cheating, like the loyal gorillas, whose females adhere to the hierarchy, and whose non-silverback males are practically impotent. moral character is a concept from human society, and even biologists recognize this as a separate issue. i do feel that there are different levels of cheating, and that human societies should recognize different levels of immorality, and punishments should be adapted accordingly. Right now, someone can go into a relationship with malice of forethought to get money and passport, and they are entitled to half the possessions just like someone who was weak and chatted in a way (s)he shouldn't have. Both are rigidly and simply viewed as 'cheating'.

xinyuren:

ok, now I understand you better.  Your original comment seemed to indicated that you were using biology as an excuse for cheaters.  And while I disagree with your premise (I believe an intelligence created us as free moral agents), we are kind of on the same page on that point.  We are capable of having more than one sex partner.  That much is obvious.  Humans are different from animals in as such we have a moral compass (all of us).  Morals are a universal quality unique to humans and most humans see cheating as bad.  When a person cheats,regardless of your definition, it isn't biology.  It's a moral failing.

coineineagh:

My first wife was a devout christian, from a country that is extremely conservative and divorce illegal. Didn't stop her from stealing her close friend's millionaire BF while she wasn't there. And all her Christian friends rallied around her, even her traditional parents stopped objecting to a divorce after 1 phonecall ("Mom, he's a millionaire!"). I believe religious folk have unwritten rules that betraying people outside their religion doesn't count. Having morality and values is universal, but it's better to develop a set of your own, rather than let a country or organized religion dictate most of them to you. For one, you have a better understanding of values if you contemplate them on your own, and most of all, you'll only be lying to yourself if you break your own rules. People who haven't developed ther own morals (religious folk, Mainlanders, etc) just tend to find loopholes in the morailty imposed on them, to abuse the system and undermine society. Look at all the cheating moralists and gay gay-haters in American churches and politics.

xinyuren:

Every human has an innate set of morals.  This is true regardless of religious affiliation.  Across the world and all cultures it is wrong to murder, steal, cheat on your spouse, etc...  When someone habitually goes against their moral instincts, their moral compass is broken and is useless to guide them.  This isn't about religion.  It's about being human.  Your view of what is right and wrong is very similar to some religious zealot's view.  This is because as humans, we have morals instilled within us.  But it is up to us individually to decide if we will allow them to guide us or not.

coineineagh:

Making a single mistake does not automatically mean a person becomes an immoral beast. It's like the myth that losing one's religion leads to losing one's humanity and morality: It's only true if you believe it. There are many such religiously-inspired, rigid, black-white-thinking phrases, like: "Once a cheater, always a cheater." Weren't you the one calling me an Arab, lacking self control, like an animal, and then some sneer about me blaming women, all the while disregarding my morality? And people like *you* have the gall to complain about ignorance on this forum... I'm not the one dirtying up the boards with judgemental bickering. You have your sophisticated religious morality to thank for that: "I don't approve of his words, so he is not a human in my eyes. Dirty arab animal with no control of himself". I see little difference between the ignorance you display, and that of a Mainlander. I can cite exceptions to nearly every sweeping statement you made about biology and morality so far, but I have to care for my family now, which I love deeply.

xinyuren:

"Making a single mistake does not automatically..." 

Read my post again.  I didn't say single mistake. I said a habitual cheater.  I assume you know the definition of habitual.

I didn't call you "an Arab" (sic).  I asked if you were.  I went on to say they (Arabs) also make claims that a man's self control problems rest with the way a woman dresses.  Never once in that comment did I call you Arabic or say that you have no self control.  I said your statement makes you appear like such a person.   Also, I didn't call Arabs "dirty animals". Twisting my words will not get you brownie points.

Finally, I am neither judgmental nor do I bicker.  Neither do I carry the flag of any religious sect.  Just because I believe in intelligent design doesn't mean I approve of religion.  If you bother to read any of my posts correctly, you would see that they have nothing to do with religion.  I simply look at the facts (or lack thereof) and draw logical conclusions. I encourage others to do the same.  If someone makes bold statements, regardless of their popularity, without solid facts backing them up, they are opening themselves up to rebuttal.  You have yet to give any proof , so I stand by what I say.   And yes,  you are indeed ignorant about many things concerning real science.

Shining_brow:

I know it's days late, but I need to jump on this..

Xin - " I simply look at the facts (or lack thereof) and draw logical conclusions. I encourage others to do the same.  If someone makes bold statements, regardless of their popularity, without solid facts backing them up, they are opening themselves up to rebuttal.  You have yet to give any proof , so I stand by what I say."

And yet - "Every human has an innate set of morals.  This is true regardless of religious affiliation."

There is NO logical connection between societies and their rules, and humans and an innate moral compass.

If you require proof from others (while flaming them), then the same also needs to be said of you... where's your 'proof'?

I, too, believe in ID - however, I don't think that designer gives a toss about a bunch of enlightened monkeys that exist on a tiny dot billions of years away from anything, and which will be gone in the blink of a flash of a ,....something else...

Morals are clearly the by-product of society, not innate in humanity. History tells us this - quite clearly!

xinyuren:

@shining - you say morals come from society.  Where does society norms come from?  answer:  people.  People establish society norms.  Over the centuries of humanity, basic morality of individuals have not changed much.  People have always "known" that murder is wrong.  Adultery and cheating has always been a negative thing.  Everyone knows this.  Why is that?  Because it is part of the human factor.  It is in us.  Which is why laws are pretty consistent from society to society.  Only the implementation varies greatly.

Love, sense of justice, morality are all things inately human.  Even communities isolated from "civilized society" have them.  A recent case is the tribe of people recently discovered.  How did their morality develop?  Did it develop itself?

Shining_brow:

Xin, please don't make it so easy for me... :p

Firstly, your response lacks 'proof', and only tries to provide 'evidence', which is only done by the fallacy of 'begging the question' - after which you provide 'an answer'.

To derail your 'argument' - firstly, you're only looking at humanity from a very short period of time... maybe a few thousand years. If you're serious about your argument, you need to go back tens and hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution... which will not help your cause too much!

Firstly, no, killing other people has been fine for most of humanity's history... mostly as long as it's been 'others', and not 'ours'. Similar to slavery... ok to keep others as slaves, but not your own group.

Secondly, it's because of internal conflict within the socieites, and thus the instability it creates, that such 'moral codes' were created. If people were left to their own devices, they'd do whatever they damn well pleased!! We know this, because we have a system of laws with enforcement. China is a fantastic example of this - minimal enforcement of the laws means most (many, a lot??) disobey the laws regularly (traffic is the most obvious). THIS is why societies and laws are fairly consistent across the world - the instability created when our base emotions impact on the other members of the group.

If you ask the average person on the street why murder is wrong, they'll tell you because if you get caught, you'll end up in jail. Occasionally, they'll mention some sort of morality (but without any real argument), or the value of human life. (which is still an 'us' vs 'them' scenario - what's the real logical difference between killing a human and killing anything else?)

Btw - " Adultery and cheating has always been a negative thing." - ah, no, again, your history is letting you down! Firstly, the concept of 'adultery' is relatively recent (again, looking only at the past few thousand years) and directly relates to the concept of marriage/monogomy - again, a fairly recent thing. 'Cheating' is the same.

If you're truly serious about this 'moral compass' idea being inherent in humans, then please explain to me why most societies still don't have total equality between men and women... Surely that's a 'moral' imperative??

ScotsAlan:

Very true Ted

I wasted too much of my late 20's to early 30's being hung up over destructive relationships. Now I am older I look back and see what a waste of time it was. It was nothing to do with love, it was all to do with hormones, pride and self denial of insecurities.

TedDBayer:

I said goodbye to my Chinese GF but that had more to do with what she thought people on the street thought and how she acted.

Victoria1987:

But do not need to do revenge.It is stupid,you will make urself cheap if u sleep with other mem for revenge.Just find a better man.

Robk:

Yeah, good advice. She is better than he is... 

But in her heart and mind she doesn't believe it. Some insecure women even think a playboy is good to have because it means they have a man that is valuable that other women want...

It is weird. 

Victoria1987:

It is more valuable to have a playboy?Hell no.Fuck that. To that poster:If I were you,I will walk straight to him and just simply told him to get divorce with me.Then after that,I will spend time on crying and being sad.And treat myself a nice traveling if I can afford.Then dress up,enjoy life and go on date with cute boy^^ I remember my first foreign bf cheated on me.We broke up and cried for many monthes and treated myself a cool traveling to Shanghai on 2011.I then had a chance to see this awesome city which is so diffrent from my small town.I moved here and got job hete after that and dated some foreign guys.I was lost for a while in my life about how to date.Even I was wondering if i can date many boys at the same time,but luckily some ppl gave me good advice on this site and I decide tonot do it.(I was misleaded by some ppl and throught that is fine to do before committed,now I think that is not good to do now).I met boys and stared something,I learned after everytime breakup,I am single again after all dating,but I never think I am not that good,I am still enjoy life as a gift,I am studing now,and preparing open my company,might go overseas as well if I get thevopportunity.Life is truly a gift and you may only can live once.Leave your cheatting husband and enjoy your life.We are all ladies,go find our happiness and the things you like to do.A cheatingboy does not deserve your time.You will be super sad when you leave him,I know,but youwill be fine as the time goes by.

Hulk: