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Q: Is China Post Moderism Incarnate?
One of the basic rules of the post-modern Frankfort school zeitgiest seems to be the subjectivity of all things, and the idea that meaning and truth are relative concepts, not objective universals.
-On the other hand look at China. Appearances matter more than substance. Universal human rights are a "Western plot." China is a democracy! A People's Democracy.
-China is peaceful, and has fought wars with all their neighbors.
-Chinese people are so smart, they have to go to OTHER countries to study.
-The foreigner can never understand China, because there is nothing to understand, but a ridiculous amount of nonsense in the vein of Lacan and Sartre.
-Is the negation of reality a required belief for China to function as a "whole?" ie as something that can b believed? In other words is a belief in the nonexistence of reality a prerequisite to avoiding the cognitive dissonance we western thinkers experience when faced with the madness that is Modern China?
Oh, I thought this thread was about the mail service... (hyphens have uses!)
Because all regimes based on coercive cleptocracy going against the common good like socialism or communism need a fair amount of delusional storytelling so they can justify stealing stuff.
Multiplied by how much stealing is going on.
Multiplied by a factor of 10 due to the new technologies when you need to keep the narrative up to date in real time.
And take in account Chinese are globally prone to delusion and irrational thinking thanks to them not listening to their own Socrates over Confucius a few thousand years ago (that's the root). So the storytellers don't actually feel the pressure for some restraint and can go full blown into teir fantasy.
And I'm absolutely not saying western people are immune to this. As I said before, it's a global trend and we all live with our share of cognitive dissonance, with the few exception of one or two individuals that I can think of, all of whom being hunted down globally by the way.
Oh, I thought this thread was about the mail service... (hyphens have uses!)
They're both just show-offing! Rask and Rari.
And 'misspelling' BS.
Can't believe, such a profound Q can be misspelled by Rasko-English master.
'ooohhh, I don't understand your Englo. You're Non-netive, aren't you.....?'
Well, let me try to reply some of your raised concerns:
1) China is not democracy
- yes China is not. If we mean ‘Athenian democracy'
- but hey, US and EU are also not
- surprise surprise China's GDP is growing 6%+ while the Western one stumbles around zero ...
2) China is peacful
- yes, China in this century did not invade and destroy any country.
- this is something what few Transatlantic countries can say ....
3) Chinese study abroad
- what's wrong with studying abroad?
- also we do not talk about exodus but just about a fraction of students ...
4) Foreigners cannot understand China
- apparently you are the clear example of the fact that some foreigners simply do not have ability to understand China
- if all do not have that ability I doubt, but if this forum would be representative so certainly majority ...
5) Not really sure what you meant
- either the problem of my English or you failed to express yourself clearly
Shining_brow:
Athenian democracy? Are you kidding us??
Firstly, Athens had slaves who couldn't vote. Secondly, women weren't allowed to vote or be elected. Thirdly, every citizen who was eligible to vote also had to make themselves available to take office. Fourthly, to be a citizen eligible to vote, you had to actually join the Athenian military (I don't recall if it was a requirement that you actually had to go to a real war or not...).
So, no - we don't have 'Athenian democracy'... so friggen what?
Democracy is about the people having some say in who is in their government. China does not have this in any way!
Other democratic countries do (even if it's pretty fked up).
Actually, China's growth figures are BS. Besides which, the more 'growth' you have, the faster the environment is getting destroyed... so, if China has the highest growth figures, it suggests China is destroying the planet faster...
5 - I think he's talking about real meaning. Or something.... But the real significance is the idea that if there's something we don't appreciate (spitting, shitting in public, 'halloooooo', etc), then it's not them that's in the wrong - it's us who don't understand. This is BS. There is nothing more to understand than that's what they think is right - but without thinking of consequence. when we say it's mockery, they say "oh, you don't understand". BS! We understand perfectly... they just refuse to accept that people can actually see what they do is wrong - cos it might make them 'lose face'.
The last one is about the inability to face reality. The government is clearly corrupt, and yet people still seem to believe their government.. WTF???
Hotwater:
Point 2). You're conveniently forgetting places starting with T & X which until late 1949 were nominally independent.
You've also forgotten the masses of so-called "volunteers" who were involved in Ho Chi Minh's side in Vietnam. Then not many years later when China actually fought Vietnam.....
Janosik:
What I meant that in Athens people eligible for voting really could influence their life and Anthens.
Current West is way way behind.
Democracy means that the people rule/decide.
Why do we have parliaments? Because it was practically impossible to ask the whole population. Therefore we had to reduce the amount of people who get involved in decision making process.
These problems do not exist anymore. Now we could very easily make Internet based voting for everybody who would like to vote.
Why we do not do that?
Because it would destroy the whole system which currently rules.
On top of that it would also be total disaster but that's different discussion.
Shining_brow:
I disagree with your last point being a different discussion.
In fact, it's an extremely important discussion to be had.
I don't think that any society yet has gotten to the point of going back to an Athenian-type democracy (although, I think it's closer than what you think - and better in some ways, such as the number of people who get to vote). 4 years? Depends on which country you're in! Australia is 3 years or so. (but the PM decides when to have an election, which can be no less than 6 weeks after announcement.. rather than a fixed date every X number of years). IN Athens - every 6 months, IIRC (at least for some members).
Yes, the system can be better - but it's significantly better than the system in China - which is pure oligarchy. Oligarchies are bad! Very bad!! Almost as bad as military /tyrannical dictatorships. (amusing point - look up the history of the word 'tyrant' :p)
In a way, I think we should be closely looking at the flag referendum in New Zealand - it's quite a good demonstration of democracy in action - and how it can be achieved. The one problem? The amount of time it takes to get something done.
Janosik:
@Shining
And I disagree, that the involvement of all eligible voters into the process will make things better.
True - it will be the real democracy. True will of all voters (who were interested enough to participate in the voting). And it will be also the end of that civilization.
I had a teacher who once who was apparently not real democrat and who illustrated the 'advantage' of democracy on following example:
1) Imagine you are on the cruiser full of people sailing the deep sea
2) Suddenly the storm comes and hits the cruiser with full force
3) Captain decides to organize democratic voting of all people in the cruiser about:
- what should be done
- in which direction the pilot shall steer
- etc. etc.
My teacher was saying such approach would most probably (almost certainly) lead to reaching the firm earth in the fastest way - sinking down.
The point is that it's a bit complicated to let uninformed/uneducated/not capable/having clash of interests/not carrying etc. etc. people to decide the things which may influence the absolute existence of the state and exactly of these people.
Let me drop several examples.
1) China has terrible air pollution
- there is very difficult and time consuming way how to solve it (China became the world biggest investor into green energy, controls the cars traffic in the worst places etc.)
- there is very quick and very simple way how to achieve it short term (what apparently some of the naives in here suggest) - shut all the factories and power stations which cause the main airpollution (done during expo, Olympic games etc.), restrict all cars - and return to the stone age ...
What to really do and how can hardly be decided by all population in China (or any other country ...)
2) Let's imagine your and Scot's point of view on refugees gets enough support in my country.
We vote and people with similar point of view win.
The first thing I would do to emigrate from Europe permanently as there would be no Europe anymore.
Funny thing is that the same people who yesterday voted for will tomorrow vote against (see at the polls in Sweden, Germany or Austria - it's simply just funny)
Shining_brow:
I'm confused... first you seem to be complaining that nowhere has 'true' democracy (because it's not Athenian-style), and then you tell me why it wouldn't work...???
Also, trying to suggest that democracy doesn't actually work is fanciful. Look around at this planet - democracy has worked quite well for a long time in many countries. It would be idiotic to suggest it doesn't work, and things don't get done!
Are there better ways? Perhaps. Plato's Benevolent Dictator for one!!
Is the Chines system better? THAT's the big question!!!
And one big response is - no! In theory, perhaps... but there is so much corruption that it just doesn't! Limiting people's access to information (censorship) is a clear example of just how bad the system is - the government is so scared of the people knowing how bad things are here, that they need to censor information to hide the truth!
As I just wrote - the system here could work... but it's not.
Scots & I on refugees... I think we're suggesting - give them a way to survive, then send them back home once the crap has been sorted out. This in no way suggests that there shouldn't be restrictions, or checks, or limits etc in place.
Janosik:
@Shining
I so far did not complain that nowhere is 'real' democracy. I just stated it as a fact.
The best government form would probably really be smart, humble and hardworking dictator but even if you find one so then you come into the trouble with successor.
I do not say that China has the perfect system but apparently it currently looks to be much more efficient than the European one and they even look to make a progress on the 'successors'.
I do not want start again the discussion about refugees and sorry for using it as an example - we cannot really neither agree not persuade each other so such discussion makes little sense ...
@ Janosik.
Point 1 You are right China is not a democracy but you do not have to use deflection to make the point. Western countries are not perfect but they are still closer to it than China. China's GDP is relatively easy to maintain at 6%, when you start from very little it is easy in the first years to maintain high growth. When you have already achieved these things a growth of 1% or less is ok. Your turn is coming.
Point 2 China has had it's conflicts with Vietnam and India and is placing missiles and military facilities on the South China Sea islands, a strange way of being peaceful.
Point 3 Chinese study abroad, fine but you forget to mention a lot of them have had their places bought and a lot of them have been caught out cheating whilst abroad. It tends to come as a bit of a shock to those to find out they actually have to work.
Point 4 I think a lot of foreigners understand China only too well. Chinese like to say they cannot as a lame way of excusing themselves. "It's ok you just don't understand", well sometimes it is not ok.
Point 5. Is largely a failure to see that things can be improved and to act upon it. Too many are content to sit back and let the CCP tell them it has improved, and of course if they say it, it must be true.
Janosik:
ad 1)
What I meant by West not having the democracy can be illustrated as follows:
- we vote every 4 years
- select the new parliament
- after that the influence on the real politics is close to zero
- we select between right, left and central parties; because many countries in EU have proportional system so frequently the left and right parties make coalition basically thus saying they do not care about voters' opinion anymore ...
ad 2)
I find nothing wrong with the fact that in the jungle I will simply take the weapon with me.
World is simply dangerous place. Aggressive countries way too many.
The point is what you do with these weapons - China does not use them frequently. Much less frequently than US and Europe.
ad 3)
Do you mean that they corrupted those Western universities?
If so then these universities should be properly punished.
I do not find Chinese lazy. They are certainly not (I mean in average).
I also do not find them stupid - actually in avrage Asians are supposed to have a bit higher IQ than the others.
ad 4)
Certainly there are many foreigners who understand China very well.
But I still dare to guess majority does not.
Majority lives in China in kind of bubble, not being able really involve in communication, read newspapers, watch TV. They simply lack a lot of information.
ad 5)
If Chinese are happy with CCP ruling the country so what's wrong with that?
Shining_brow:
1) - so, you're doing the 'it's not perfect, so therefore it's bad' argument.. What crap! And, to go hand in hand with that is the 'because the west hasn't perfected democracy, the CCP is good! - absolute bollocks! Like our posts here, each must stand on its own merits. The 'bastion' of democracy in the world - the USA - is one of the worst examples of it in practice... ironic, huh??
2) You don't - Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines, Brunei, Vietnam - and, for that matter, the UN, does! I absolutely HATE that China wants to be seen on the international stage, and yet ignores the rest of the world to do its own thing! (and, before you do the obvious - yes, I'm not too damn happy about the US's actions either!)
AGAIN, you have ignored basic facts... China is a signatory to ICA & UNCLOS (whether the US is or not is irrelevant!) China has also signed other agreements, binding themselves to NOT do any construction on those territories in dispute. China has broken those agreements... Thus, China is in the wrong! No if's, but's or maybe's!
Building up a military on its own land... fine! Just don't expect others (like Japan) to sit back and do nothing...!
3) How the hell do you get 'they corrupted those universities'?? (although, there are issues... and a quick search can find some!) Many Chinese students should not be in those universities. They do not have the ability to do well there (of course, there are MANY that do - oddly enough, they happen to be some of the brightest - and richest - of China's current generation - so, why do they go overseas, instead of staying here? This makes no sense.. unless Chinese universities suck in comparison!)
Many universities take on Chinese students to get money .. this is sucky, but it happens. The education export industry is worth billions of dollars (part of my research was looking at those figures!)
Some of those students are so bad, and had Chinese thoughts so ingrained, they've tried to bribe lecturers. Do a search, and you'll find a large number that get expelled for it!
Also do a search for ways in which Chinese students have tried to cheat.. SAT, IELTS, GMAT.. gaokao... fake university application letters, hiring ghost writers.. Again, multi-million/billion dollar business! Denial is futile!
4) Some news is important, Some totally irrelevant. Yes, we live in a bubble - we always will. The entire Chinese population is living in a bubble! Ask any Chinese person if any mainlander has won a Nobel prize! (in particular, a Peace prize) Ask them how democracy works. Ask them about the topics we're not supposed to talk about.
You are basically suggesting that people who come to China are completely ignorant about it. This is NOT the case.
Yes, there is a lot of efficiency here.. but in a strangely inefficient way. (ie, things could be done so much easier and better). The things that happen at the day to day level for most people, many are aware of.
5) Firstly, not as true as you want to think... they are not happy with the corruption, they are not happy with their restrictions and freedoms being curtailed. They are not happy with the lack of action on important issues. They are also scared of their government. Being scared and being happy is a somewhat unlikely combination.
There are happy slaves too!
Besides, as much as you may want to disagree, it's not just the Chinese people who need to be 'happy' with the CCP.... there is the rest of the world! If China really wants to play on the world stage, then it has to have a system of government that works with the rest of the actors. Otherwise, tensions build, possibly leading to war (yeah - sort of like now!) Look at the last 100 years or so, and you'll realise just how true that is!
Janosik:
@Shining
How can you mix so many things together?
I like to honor my contracts. But if my competitor (and let's face the facts - it's now pretty much about restructuring the world powers) or even more of them are acting in certain way, then they leave me with no chance.
Comparing China to Vietnam (about 80 Mil people), Malaysia (about 40 Mil) and Thailand (do not know how many but certainly less than Vietnam) so it's simply funny.
Or did I miss your point?
What concerns of the studying abroad so on top of quality of education you also get totally different experience and perspective, which you can never really achieve without living and studying in foreign country.
What's wrong with that?
Nobel prizes for peace are simply ridiculous. You may or may not like Obama but the speed with which he got the Nobel price just after being elected is simply funny (not even mentioning that connecting last several American presidents with the word peace sounds a bit like oxymoron ...).
Another example is Arafat, another is former Czech president Havel etc. etc.
We know them because it's part of our civilization - who in Europe knows anything about Chinese prices? Or Taiwanese or Singaporean for that purpose ...
Shining_brow:
@J - because nothing in this universe exists in isolation!
1 - Islands... what a load of bollocks! AGAIN! Give just ONE relevant example that might justify ignoring ALL the agreements they've broken for what China's done on the islands.
And also remember - it was CHINA that first and foremost chose not to go to arbitration - THAT was the first straw!
2 - I have a problem with students going somewhere to study when they don't have the ability or willingness. It's not Sino-specific. It also includes programs for the disadvantaged. If they can do it - they have the ability and willingness - GREAT! But if they can't/don't - I think it's bad. I've had some great students (I've taught A-levels, USPP and a Pre-Master's program), and they will do really well! I've also had students that seriously suck, and should never go to any university - here or overseas! Unfortunately, this planet is operating on money, and most education facilities are losing revenue... so attracting those losers who are paying an arm and a leg are welcomed... not a good idea!
But what I was really getting at was the quality of education here... it is a very well known fact that it sucks! I'm sure there are some fantastic knowledgeable teachers here, and some very dedicated students. But management has a really bad habit of stuffing things up - again, usually having to do with money. English Majors who can't even have a full conversation. Auto mechanics who never touch a car. That sort of thing. The very fact that university lecturers, with higher degrees, are some of the lowest paid professions is a clear indicator! (you should see the pay rates for teachers at BeiDa & TsingHua... 5000/month!!)
Shining_brow:
3 - Whether you like or agree with the Nobel prizes (and let's face it, the 'Peace' prize has serious issues - but I don't think you'd argue about the prizes for the sciences...), the fact is that it's well-known and international. You can quote the crap about the idiots who did receive the peace prize (including Obama's), but for a country that is so nationalistic as China, to not know their own recipients - from within this very decade - says more about the Chinese government's attitudes than anything else. I had a Chinese gf a few years ago, and I asked her about him - Lu Xiaobo - and she parrotted back the propaganda. I then went online... I showed her all the propaganda written about him in all the newspapers and online media here in China... funny thing - every piece was word-for-word identical - Beijing's official stance.
Janosik:
@Shining
On the Nobel prizes (and not only):
1) I think the main point, you are continuously disregarding, is that there is not just one civilization (or culture if you prefer it). Asia has already several and one of them is certainly China.
2) These cultures principles, values and behavioral patterns are different
3) It's quite natural to consider own culture to be one of the better ones ('even though having flaws') and majority of people in this world are taking such standpoint.
We grew up in the time when Transatlantic civilization dominated the world.
But before it was Islamic Calif, Mongols, Chinese, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Chets, Summers etc. (sometimes just regionally though).
Now the Mother Nature looks to come to the 'decision' that Transatlantic civilization should be replaced and this looks to be happening now.
These differences are then also mirrored in the different 'cultural items' awareness. Therefore I mentioned Asian prices - few Westerners could say even one ...
You shall also not be so strict on your previous girlfriend, or for that sake majority of the Chinese.
In comparison to you I have the 'advantage' of living for decades in both systems (even though the previous Central/Eastern Europe socialism quite differs form the Chinese one. But certain similarities are really hard to find.
I still remember how shocked I was when I for the first time saw the movie 'Red Scorpion' (if I remember the name right) in early 90ties.
Generally we grew up with Russians and Czechoslovaks being the good heroes and the rascals were Americans, British and (West) Germans.
Suddenly in this movie the worst was 'Frau Novacek' (I do not know why Frau because this is German word meaning Mrs. but Novacek is clearly a Czech name). American guy was then the great hero and exemplary good guy.
And we were not stupid, we sometimes could hear West German radio or TV. But certainly there were a lot of things we simply did not realize.
But China is different nowadays. The people have access to majority of relevant information - they just do not care.
What concerns of education so there is no quick and easy solution.
The European education is sliding down and believe me for Czechoslovakia (both current countries) the highest level of education was during socialistic time.
Many of our rectors are now saying that abitur (Middle School leaving exam) in socialist school has the level of current bachelor and that they are forced to compromise more and more due to the level and willingness to learn of current students ...
And when meeting with other European students ours do not feel really inferior ...
China is simply too big.
They have people who live in the house without electricity (even though it's not so horrible like for instance in 'democratic' India) and they also fly to Universe ...
