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Q: China's one party Communist system and American's multiparty democracy: What's the difference?

The West loves to put down China's governing system as anachronistic, corrupt and incompetent.  They say that Chinese people are brainwashed and propagandized.  This is mostly true, but is the Western system / systems any different?  Let us see....

 

China:  People are brainwashed to support their leader in a one party system whether he is right, wrong, or crazy.  They are trained to chant slogans as opposed to reason.

USA (for example):  People are brainwashed to support their party whether they are right, wrong, or crazy.  They are conditioned to chant slogans as opposed to reason.

China:  Their leaders face an overwhelming array of problems and limitations.  They are unable to solve these problems.  They haven't even learned to get along with others. They often result to military solutions to divert people's attention from their ineptness.

USA:  Their leaders face and overwhelming array of problems and limitations.  They are unable to solve these problems.  They can't even get along in peace. They often result to military solutions to divert people's attention from their ineptness.

China:  The rich and powerful control and game the system to their advantage.  The poor and powerless benefit only due to ancillary consequences of the leader's decisions.  In other words,  the poor scramble for the crumbs the rich leave behind.

USA:  The rich and powerful control the game.  The poor and powerless may be able to benefit by hanging on their coattails.

 

So next time you want to chant your political rhetoric or shout out your red or blue color, remember that you are no different than the Chinese or citizens of any other regime that ever existed.  You are lemmings in a game benefiting others.  It is a losing game and a failure.  It is nothing to be proud of and certainly no reason to claim superiority over the opposing party.  It's just pathetic.

 

7 years 34 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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Are you Chinese? America is the worst Democracy in the world but you don't compare China to Germany , Sweden, or any of the millions of great Democracies. And you glance over one glaring fact. Democracies work if the people make them work. Americans, by choice are ignorant and uninformed.

xinyuren:

There are millions of great democracies? really? You count Germany and Sweden among them? They have the same basic problems as the United States! Please humor me and name a "great" democracy without the grevious flaws that exist in all forms of government. I am convinced now that Western propoganda is just as effective as the Chinese brand in wiping your brains of any kind of objective judgement. All you people seem to do is hate with no objective reason. You hate because they are in the other party, country, or ideology. But in the end, you are being served the same sh#t as the other side. It may be a different flavor. You may be eating your sh#t in an air conditioned dining room, while the Chinese eat theirs in a dirty back alley. But its still sh#t. And you're too brainwashed or stupid to understand that reality.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You think millions was literal? Proof you're simple minded. France, Norway, Canada, Australia, Finland, Switzerland, Denmark, and (there's an eastern European country that is thriving but I forget the name).

 

You know where's the proof, Chinese are doing whatever they can to go to America. Central, South American countries are doing whatever they can to get to America. Ask immigrants, they'll tell you. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

So these countries you mentioned have no corruption, no poor people, no financial crisis, no polution, no crime or social problems, are immune to the climate change, are also immune to deadly disease, and everyone is happy with their treatment by the government? Wow, why doesnt everyone copy them?! And why aren't you living there instead of here in China?The real problem with your answers is that your standards are low. Real low. The great flight of the Chinese is not proof of anything. They're just trading one flavor of sh#t for another. They try to get out and meanwhile, you went in. What is that proof of? Ya got tired of that American sh#t, right?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Australia is on your list? You do know that quite a few Aussies on this board have depicted a far from perfect scenario there. I'm quite sure they haven't conquered the basic problems of human coexistence down under. And Canada?!? I guess you didn't know that Canadians are the fourth largest in number of migrants to America (behind India, China, and Mexico). Why are they leaving if their country is so great? Because America is "greater"? In this case, does Trump really need to make America great again? Obviously, I'm having fun at your expense but its only because you dont know what you're talking about, your standards are too low, and you're too busy singing the Star Spangled Banner to even notice. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Have fun in your happy-happy land.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You're contradicting yourself. You're saying America sucks but you're saying people leave their country because it sucks. America is the number 1 destination.

People leave their country for different reasons, better opportunity does not mean..

 

You're saying being critical of your government means it's automatically a shitty government? Again you're simple minded. We are critical because we are allowed to be, taught to be. You know where you will find people in unision singing the praises of their governments? North Korea and China. 

 

I forgot to add South Korea and Japan to that list. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Oh lets not forget Taiwan

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

"You're contradicting yourself. You're saying America sucks but you're saying people leave their country because it sucks"

Haha, you're a great source of entertainment.  You think I'm contradicting myself do you?  Don't you remember this?: 

 

"You know where's the proof, Chinese are doing whatever they can to go to America. Central, South American countries are doing whatever they can to get to America. Ask immigrants, they'll tell you."  

 

You started this chain of logic, not me.  Did you forget your own words?  I was just using your own logic to have fun with you because you avoid the issue. I'm saying they all suck! I asked for an example of a "great" democratic country that has solved the common problems of all human governments, and you give me a list of countries that have most of the same major problems as America and China!  Let me ask you Englteachted, is the whole world great?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Engl - are you thinking Slovenia or Estonia for your East European country? (Or Ukraine ).

7 years 34 weeks ago
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kasuka91:

So a country where the middle class is quickly vanishing, people get charged thousands of dollars to conceive a child and diseases such as obesity and diabetes are at an all-time high is the no 1 destination for people around the world? Sounds like they've been hoodwinked.

 

Xinyuren has a point, at least with the United States. Over the last few decades things have gotten worse for your average person in the USA whereas prospects continue to improve for your average Chinese. That can't be denied.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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Yep.

 

I've been reading those posts too, and thinking that there is no reasoning with some people, and it doesn't matter where they're from... they were born and bred with 'this is how we think and it can't ever change cos this is who we are". 

 

But, let's face it ( and here come the down votes) there are some really 'challenged' people who post here,  some can't even put together a coherent sentence or opinion. Who cares what they say.

 

To be honest, I don't see a lot of difference between them and the average brainwashed peasant picking his nose on the street in 3 tier China.

 

Well, I'm going to drink a beer, sit back and enjoy my down votes. I even know who some will come from.

 

 

Shining_brow:

You deserve multiple downvotes!

 

Suggesting that you have to go to a T3 city to get (willfully) ignorant nationalistic morons!

 

The other week when The Hague ruling was handed down, I was quite disappointed at how many well educated, normally rational individuals sent out their ignorant rhetoric on Wechat... in the richest province's capital!

 

Shame on you! Ignorance is EVERYWHERE!

 

 :D

 

(ps, no, that down wasn't mine)

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Stiggs:

haha, yeah my bad, what was I thinking?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Over the years I have become, like a lot of people, completely cynical when it comes to politicians. There does seem to be very little to choose between any of them. At least in our "democratic" system we do get the chance every few years to vote for who is going to screw us over next. Is it better, not really sure any more.

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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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I have posted similar stuff in the past.
the only difference i can see is geographic location

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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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The thousands of people from the hell holes of Vietnam, North Korea,China, Cuba, and the former USSR who risked death to escape to America or critique their regimes, names like Solzhenitsyn, Vaclav Havel, Lech Wlaesa, Chen Guancheng, Bob Fu, and so on would likely all be spitting on you right now...

xinyuren:

Instead of speculating about how others might respond to my post (you really have no idea what they would think), why not inform me on where I am wrong? What untruth did I write?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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rasklnik:

I know plenty of people who literally have died over the years since 1917 trying to leave one party rule, and all the resulting genocide and madness that Marxism has caused and I'm not interested in debating people who prefer to argue a false equivalency between good and evil.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Wait, as in democracy is good and communism is evil? LOL! You exactly made my point! You have drank the KoolAid! I understand why you dont want to debate this, because you would lose. God bless Democracy and God bless America! Right? LOL! I hate to burst your bubble, little fella', but its all "evil". If you think the circus thats passing for a democratic election in the US these days is good, then your standards are really, really low. In every aspect that matters, every form of human governance is a dismal failure.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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rasklnik:

Chomsky, Zinn, Malcolm X and MLK, Eugene Debs, Michael Moore, and Bernie Sanders, all Americans who have complained about the injustices and failures of democracy in America...and yes some were shot or imprisoned...

...All of whom you can read about in a textbook, or watch a biographic firm, or in Bernie's case even vote for, as his supporters in Vermont have done.

...Now please find one Chinese, North Korean, Vietnamese, or Cuban who is 1) currently studied in their respective curriculum, and 2) criticized the COMMUNIST regime. NAME ONE! That's right you can't, cause you little gramsci loving, pencil necked, red army, red book reading punks don't care about reality, but just say anybody you disagree with is an idiot. Marx, Lenin, M, and Castro weren't stupid. They were evil. Big difference. I know marxism is real and is a threat to the world. Not in the communintern system or KGB plots, but rather that there are more Marxist University professors than Republicans. American Universities turn out self loathing white men, and identity politics, argue for the destruction of objective truth, and crush all opposition.

 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Ok, wait a minute, let me see if I understand your brilliant logic.  The USA has freedom of press and freedom of speech.  Therefore it doesn't matter if they haven't solved the pressing problems that prevent society from truly being great and that even threaten our survival.  We are free to complain about the unsolved problems and that alone makes us great?  That's your big difference?  So when we get to the end of the line and gasping our last lungful of polluted air, this is your defense?  At least our great country was free to complain about our demise?

 

 Give mankind free speech and he will use it to shame and abuse his fellow man.  Give him freedom of choice and he will use it to dominate and kill his brother.  Democracy has done no more to solve the problem of human greed and selfishness than any other form of government.  The differences that you site are not differences that matter.  The issues that matter are some of the issues that have resulted in a political party of the most powerful country in the world to hold up an imbecile as their candidate.  How many angry white men who are pissed off at the system do you think it took to make this happen? Go ahead and pat yourself on the back because your government lets you criticize them. I will be looking to see if they can solve the real problems.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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retiredinchina:

How do you solve problems if you are not allowed to talk about them? Regardless of country or beliefs, How does that work?

Perhaps the smart elite leaders of all countries should solve the problems and tell the underclass they are stupid and don't know what is in their best interest, regardless of the form of government. OK, how is that working out for you?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"..Now please find one Chinese, North Korean, Vietnamese, or Cuban who is 1) currently studied in their respective curriculum, and 2) criticized the COMMUNIST regime. NAME ONE! That's right you can't"

 

I love when people put up challenges like that... devil

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3196102/China-democracy-Reformers-words-signal-a-new-debate-on-political-reform.html

 

http://www.brill.com/cn/democracy-and-rule-law-china

 

http://en.people.cn/90785/8003385.html

 

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-02/05/content_14540008.htm

 

 

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/05/01/vietnams-democratisation-movement/

 

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2013/12/13/shoots-of-hope-for-vietnamese-democracy/

 

I didn't bother searching for Cuba or North K... I suspect NK won't be easy to find, but Cuba won't be so hard.

 

As for names - you seem to have forgotten one of Hu Jintao's and Wen Jiabao's last words as the were leaving their positions... democracy will come to China.

 

As for Vietnam, Aung San Suu Kyi is rather well-known around the world (and in Vietnam) as a pro-democracy campaigner.

 

 

Also - gotta love it when people confuse political and economic systems!

 

But - I do agree - at least in most democratic countries, we have the freedom to discuss the problems, and thus to be able to work out solutions better. In dictatorships and similar other forms of governments, that's not an option.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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Are you Chinese? America is the worst Democracy in the world but you don't compare China to Germany , Sweden, or any of the millions of great Democracies. And you glance over one glaring fact. Democracies work if the people make them work. Americans, by choice are ignorant and uninformed.

xinyuren:

There are millions of great democracies? really? You count Germany and Sweden among them? They have the same basic problems as the United States! Please humor me and name a "great" democracy without the grevious flaws that exist in all forms of government. I am convinced now that Western propoganda is just as effective as the Chinese brand in wiping your brains of any kind of objective judgement. All you people seem to do is hate with no objective reason. You hate because they are in the other party, country, or ideology. But in the end, you are being served the same sh#t as the other side. It may be a different flavor. You may be eating your sh#t in an air conditioned dining room, while the Chinese eat theirs in a dirty back alley. But its still sh#t. And you're too brainwashed or stupid to understand that reality.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You think millions was literal? Proof you're simple minded. France, Norway, Canada, Australia, Finland, Switzerland, Denmark, and (there's an eastern European country that is thriving but I forget the name).

 

You know where's the proof, Chinese are doing whatever they can to go to America. Central, South American countries are doing whatever they can to get to America. Ask immigrants, they'll tell you. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

So these countries you mentioned have no corruption, no poor people, no financial crisis, no polution, no crime or social problems, are immune to the climate change, are also immune to deadly disease, and everyone is happy with their treatment by the government? Wow, why doesnt everyone copy them?! And why aren't you living there instead of here in China?The real problem with your answers is that your standards are low. Real low. The great flight of the Chinese is not proof of anything. They're just trading one flavor of sh#t for another. They try to get out and meanwhile, you went in. What is that proof of? Ya got tired of that American sh#t, right?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Australia is on your list? You do know that quite a few Aussies on this board have depicted a far from perfect scenario there. I'm quite sure they haven't conquered the basic problems of human coexistence down under. And Canada?!? I guess you didn't know that Canadians are the fourth largest in number of migrants to America (behind India, China, and Mexico). Why are they leaving if their country is so great? Because America is "greater"? In this case, does Trump really need to make America great again? Obviously, I'm having fun at your expense but its only because you dont know what you're talking about, your standards are too low, and you're too busy singing the Star Spangled Banner to even notice. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Have fun in your happy-happy land.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You're contradicting yourself. You're saying America sucks but you're saying people leave their country because it sucks. America is the number 1 destination.

People leave their country for different reasons, better opportunity does not mean..

 

You're saying being critical of your government means it's automatically a shitty government? Again you're simple minded. We are critical because we are allowed to be, taught to be. You know where you will find people in unision singing the praises of their governments? North Korea and China. 

 

I forgot to add South Korea and Japan to that list. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Oh lets not forget Taiwan

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

"You're contradicting yourself. You're saying America sucks but you're saying people leave their country because it sucks"

Haha, you're a great source of entertainment.  You think I'm contradicting myself do you?  Don't you remember this?: 

 

"You know where's the proof, Chinese are doing whatever they can to go to America. Central, South American countries are doing whatever they can to get to America. Ask immigrants, they'll tell you."  

 

You started this chain of logic, not me.  Did you forget your own words?  I was just using your own logic to have fun with you because you avoid the issue. I'm saying they all suck! I asked for an example of a "great" democratic country that has solved the common problems of all human governments, and you give me a list of countries that have most of the same major problems as America and China!  Let me ask you Englteachted, is the whole world great?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Engl - are you thinking Slovenia or Estonia for your East European country? (Or Ukraine ).

7 years 34 weeks ago
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kasuka91:

So a country where the middle class is quickly vanishing, people get charged thousands of dollars to conceive a child and diseases such as obesity and diabetes are at an all-time high is the no 1 destination for people around the world? Sounds like they've been hoodwinked.

 

Xinyuren has a point, at least with the United States. Over the last few decades things have gotten worse for your average person in the USA whereas prospects continue to improve for your average Chinese. That can't be denied.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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You should have enough sense to realize that when a retard posts nonsense blaming Obama for the Iraq war arguing against it is not Blue / Red it's simply arguing in support of reality and facts. I hate Obama, I hate morons who waste their votes every election voting for Rep or Dem. 

Automatically viewing it as left right rhetoric is proof to my point that Americans are too simple minded and stupid by choice.

Englteachted:

In schoool, I learned to scratch the surface carefully (edit)access bias, facts, opinions, trustworthy sources and what not. 90% of my classmates decided to tune out the teacher., In China, the people don't even have the opportunity. There's your difference

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

So after you scratched underneath the surface, gathered trustworthy sources and finally confirmed that you are in the same sh#tty situation as them (because you are), is there any meaningful difference? No. And the ironic thing is you claim your government is so much greater, but you have decided to live in China.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

I get paid when I work, I choose whether or not to work overtime, if I'm poor I get to see the doctor, my kid still goes to school even to university. 

That's the same?

You're a spoiled little baby. You have zero appreciation for what growing up in america meant for you. You have no understanding of what Chinese workers must endure. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Again, you are way too simple minded!! Just because I'm here doesn't mean I'm here permanently. Because of the fact that I was born in America I was able to go to university for free and ensure that I would not be impoverished like my mother. I was able to make something of myself and put myself in a position where now I can waste time until I fully retire. 

Again you're a spoiled brat. Strip your kids of their US citizenship and force them to really grow up as Chinese citizens. 20 years from now, they'll piss on your grave. Put your money where your mouth is, give up your citizenship. Simpletons like you hate on America but absolutely refuse turn down the benefits you receive from citizenship.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Yay for your free University education. That means your government works, right? Did you call me simple-minded? LOL. I was born in America. That affords me benefits that other peoples can't enjoy. But this in no way obligates me to be loyal or parade for a broken system. It is you who are the simpleton. Your loyalty seems to go to any country that will give you free education. Because you have your steak and wine, u think America must be greater than China. My standards for greatness is much higher than that. I have American citizenship, I am glad of that fact, but I can call a spade a spade. The problems are still there. They are still unsolved. In some countries, they are obscured by the shiny things. Enjoy your shiny things.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

So you get paid for your work. Do all Americans have a job? Your kid gets to go to college. Is that something all American families enjoy? You have good health care. What about the thousands of homeless Americans? Can they see a doctor when they need one? Just what exactly is your point? I know many Chinese who are wealthy (they get paid to work too), have kids in university and get good medical care. Does that mean China is great too? Your standards are too low and you are easily distracted by shiny things, but I am the simpleton, right?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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7 years 34 weeks ago
 
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Yet another major hole in your moronic post. Chinese can't have free access to info. Chinese can't criticize their officials, Chinese newspapers can't even freely report the news. They must report only what the government tells them. 

You know why, if Chinese freely looked at everything most would choose a different government. Americans can look at anything we want you know why? 9/10 we'll still back the government we'll just want to steer it in a different direction.

xinyuren:

You're a little dense, so I'll explain your situation in different terms.  Let's say you want to go from Shanghai to Beijing.  You have money, so you take a bullet train first class.  They serve you steak and wine in transit.  Halfway there, the train stops.  There is a impassable ravine and the bridge is out and it cannot be repaired.  Beyond that is a great wall that can't be overcome.  At the same time, your Chinese friend also wants to make this trip.  He is poor, so he takes a crowded, hot bus.  There is no meal.  He has to pee in a cup.  He also arrives at the broken bridge over the ravine.  Both of you cannot reach your destinations.  What is the difference between you two?

Do you want to deny that these barriers exist? Then you are just as bad as the desperate politicians who want your vote.   You have been blinded by your steak and wine and creature comforts.  You think that makes a real difference.  In the end, everyone has the same limitations.  The same set of unsolvable problems exist for everyone.  Wake up.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You make zero sense. Here's why. The people are the roadblock in America. The people are tuned out and a minority (slim) of retards control the show. Less than about 40% of the country votes (including non presidential elections) Americans are too stupid to realize that the president can't make laws and that choosing legislators carefully is im[portant. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

The one smart thing you said in all this: People are the roadblock. People are the roadblock everywhere! That is my whole point! The same problems exist everywhere because people are the same everywhere! The fact that the Chinese and Americans chose different ways to solve the same problems (and failing) does not change the fact that the problems remain unsolved. It doesnt matter who is in power, who you have as legislators, what laws they enact, human selfishness and greed will always be a barrier. Maybe you havent lived long enough to realize this. Democracy may look good on paper. Communism may look fine in theory. But put real humans into the equation and it all goes to sh#t. Then you get a choice between a Trump and a Clinton. And naive people like you think thats a real choice or that it will make any difference at all.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

You make zero sense. Here's why. The people are the roadblock in America. The people are tuned out and a minority (slim) of retards control the show. Less than about 40% of the country votes (including non presidential elections) Americans are too stupid to realize that the president can't make laws and that choosing legislators carefully is im[portant. 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

I don't know why you saw the need to repeat yourself, but as I said you are right.  People are the problem, and what you just described is what happens in every democratic society in the world. Welcome to politics and this is the best it gets.  Most people are stupid and uninterested.  The rest are bottom feeding power grabbers.  And this is what you have pledged allegiance to.  Good luck with that, but I don't see how your corrupt power grabbers can claim superiority over the opposition's corrupt power grabbers.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Bottomline, put your money where your mouth is. Action speaks louder that words. You think China is better than America, so renounce your citizenship and commit to China. 

xinyuren:

I'm curious,  did anyone else interpret the words in my original post and rebuttals as meaning that I think China is better than the USA?  Anyone?crying

 

Damn, its just my luck to get stuck debating with the only one in the room with a reading comprehension problem.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shifu

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There's a famous word in poli-sci for people like Xinyuren...it's a compound word, the first word is useful and the second word begins with an 'i''.

xinyuren:

I guess it's easier to devise clever word games than to come up with a logical rebuttal to my arguments?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shifu

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There are many differences between the way the American Government works and the way the Chinese Government works but the main one is that in America you have one more political party.

American Democracy could be made much better if the parties were publicly funded and donations were capped at a certain level and could not be made anonymously.

Other parties would be able to break the strangle-hold that the two main parties have on power by making voting representational. If a small party gained 5% of the vote for the House of Representatives then they would get 5% of the seats. This would work some way as to.stopping partisan politics and forcing politicians to work together. It would let those voters that feel disenfranchised have a voice.

The Constitution should be reviewed and revised. The people who wrote it were very progressive and I'm sure the didn't consider it holy text. It was a groundbreaking political experiment and it worked very well.

The main obstacle to better Government in any country is not having a well educated and informed voting public. There is a vicious circle of disenfrachisement, apathy, lack of accountability of politicians and lack of knowledge in the voting public that has lead to the two current nominations for President.

xinyuren:

You say our political experiment worked very well?  I would argue that it merely went through the common stages of politics.  The first stage is unbridled enthusiasm and optimism.  The second stage is "hmm.  this isn't as easy as it sounds.  We got a few kinks but we'll work it out".  Third stage:  "ok, 2 out of 5 ain't bad".  And the final stage (the one most of the developed world is in): Decadence ("F#ck it, this is broken.  I'm taking what I can, while I can).   

7 years 34 weeks ago
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retiredinchina:

I like the 5th stage(assuming decadence is the 4th stage), I'm sure the people that lived during the French Revolution loved it as well, the sooner you hit the 5th stage, the sooner the backlash and start at stage one again. That's what makes it work, if humans could see and plan long term, they would see the 5 stages repeating many times in history, relax, enjoy the show, if you know the game, you get to pull the strings and laugh. The altruistic utopia ideas of people avoiding the game or not caring about materialism is a nice intellectually noble thought, but I don't want to be a Buddhist priest. If heaven is boring and hell is painful, why would I want to suffer neglect and hardship for my fellow man to having shiny things and I have to do without, give me a gun and i will get mine also. This will never change, it's an exercise in mental futility that has been around forever. The crusade is noble, but not realistic at all, even with free education paid by productive workers taxes, most people would not understand or care for their fellow man. If anyone believes that the American or Chinese current political parties will still be running things in a 100 years. You are hopelessly naive. The democratic party is driving full speed to the left. The Republican party is splitting because of immigration and corporate interests, so we will have three parties soon or more and better representation or perhaps a civil war, does not matter, the stages will start over again. China will be forced to be a friend instead of a bully and change their government peacefully or with blood, does not matter, the stages will start again. Relax, enjoy the show.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/video-chinas-nightmare-pacific-2016-8

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"It was a groundbreaking political experiment and it worked very well.'

 

I'm curious as to what you think was so ground-breaking and experimental about it...

 

the idea that people can be labelled as either A or B - with no third option, is a huge problem! And one that the US political system hasn't worked out yet.

 

I'd also suggest that in order to be allowed to vote, you must pass a test on current politics, politicians, policies, and probable consequences of implementing those policies...

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You have become a CCP shill.

 

In America they have a fucking CHOICE regardless of subtle propaganda.

If you want to vote for a xenophobic misogynistic asswipe you can.

If you want to express displeasure with the government you can...and not be "detained" indefinitely by expressing your views.

America may have subtle propaganda but if I want to protest or rally against the government I can...without fear of detention and torture.

You have been in China too fucking long.

That my friend is why China is a dangerous place to be if you publicly disagree with the CCP and why in the US its my right to disagree with government decisions, protected by the constitution.

China also has a constitution but it is ignored for the benefit of the party.

 

xinyuren:

"In America they have a fucking CHOICE regardless of subtle propaganda."

 

First of all, my naive friend, though subtle, America's (hell, any country's) propaganda is just as forceful and purposeful as China.  American citizens are more savvy than the Chinese.  It has to be subtle.  Secondly, you have the perception of choice. I know it's comforting to sit back in your easy chair and think you are controlling how things develop in Washington.  The politicians know this too.  But if you think for one moment the people holding the power are going to let you ignorant AmeriNongs have any chance of interfering with their power plays, you have been singing "God Bless America" too long. That is why they have provided you with that nice illusion of choice so you can have bragging rights when you're chatting with your Chinese friends. *BTW, I know you're Canadian.

 

"If you want to vote for a xenophobic misogynistic asswipe you can"

 

Yes you can!  Not that your vote will mean things will change.  No it won't!  If elected, that misogynist asswipe will toe the line or suffer lame duck status his whole term.

 

"...you can protest or rally against the government I can... without fear of detention and torture.

 

This you can do also.  And the appropriate government official will shed their crocodile tears and assure you that the President will hear about your struggle, and....   personally, I call screaming at the top of my lungs in the hot sun torture, but to each his own.

 

"You have been in China too fucking long."  

 

This may be true.  I know it feels like too long.  Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that while I have been gone, the USA hasn't made much progress on that list of serious problems every other govt. is trying to solve.  

You can list the many advantages of a democratic society (I can list more), but in relationship to the truly important problems that face mankind,  all the world's governments are on equal footing.  They all have failed.  I may have been in China too long, but I can still see plain black and white and I have the advantage of my vision being unclouded by red white and blue.

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I rarely downvote (less than once per week), but I did to your question...

 

We've had this argument before, so I really don't know what you're trying to achieve by dredging it up again. You've basically stated that there's absolutely ZERO that we can do about the shit we're in, and it's all going to go boom pretty soon... so what???

 

Accepting that is not a solution either!

 

The others are fighting you on political grounds. Let me look at it from an logical viewpoint.

 

Your 'argument' fails- as in, real logical fallacy fail.

 

Firstly, you're doing the 'haven't yet, so never will' type fallacy. Just because democracy (or any other form of government) has not yet fixed all of the world's problems, you assume that it (they) never will. Yes, I know your stance on this - but it doesn't change the fact that it's an invalid argument!

 

Also, A=A. All governments are equally bad. This is false for the (false) US/China comparison, and for the US/all western countries mix-up.

 

Thirdly, you assume it is the government's duty to educate their citizens on morals, ethics, behaviour, etc. I'm not sure that this is completely true. While there are some obvious examples (murder is bad, so you'll be punished), that doesn't extend to things like 'you should be charitable'). I'm sure you'd like to disagree - or at least, suggest that therein lies the problem. But, even then, you'll have a problem. If I've read you right, you do actually believe that humans were given free will. I know you believe that your god is the only one who can fix this mess, and no human(Drunk can. But, if humans have free will, then they are under NO obligation to fix this mess. And, whatever they do is a perfectly valid option. (yes, it would also be a valid option to choose to go to hell...!)

 

I won't really get into the differences between countries and their governments - and the problems they've solved. We've had that argument before.... and we continue to disagree.

 

I share some of your objections, and some of your hopes (of how this world and humanity should be). I just think that humanity will (eventually) get it right... some time... (perhaps in the next 10,000 years...). I also don't discount alien intervention Tongue

xinyuren:

This thread happened in response to the endless, nonsensical pot-calling-the-kettle-black partisan bickering on this forum.  It's like two street whores fighting it out in the gutter to decide who is the most classy.  Its gotten rather ridiculous.  I don't think they realize the irony.
 
"Firstly, you're doing the 'haven't yet, so never will' type fallacy. Just because democracy (or any other form of government) has not yet fixed all of the world's problems, you assume that it (they) never will. Yes, I know your stance on this - but it doesn't change the fact that it's an invalid argument!"
 
My argument is logical.  Mankind has tried all forms of government with all it's permeations.  There is nothing new under the sun.  So basically they are trying to solve the same problems with the same solutions, which will give the same results.  Has real life born out that conclusion? Absolutely.  There is nothing more to try!  The options have been used.  Insanity is trying the same solutions and expecting different results.  I'm sorry, there is nothing new. There will be no different result.  Actually, some people think Trump is something new.  LOL. Let's just say, there is no political solution to these problems.
 
"Also, A=A. All governments are equally bad. This is false for the (false) US/China comparison, and for the US/all western countries mix-up."
 
I don't believe this.  Any of my wording you may have found to indicate A=A is meant to be considered only on a relative basis.  In other words, I don't think all governments are equally bad.  I feel they all fall short of my standards for good, so they are all on the same footing.  I hope you can get my point.  Poison water will be poured down the drain.  Does it make a difference whether the poison in the water was 1% or 50%?  No.  It's all worthless.
 
" I also don't discount alien intervention"
 
I always found that peculiar that people can accept alien intervention/invasion but refuse to accept the possibility of a God (but in your case, I get the joke.)

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

I forgot to address your point about free will and the responsibility of government.  From a secular point of view, it would be irresponsible of a government to expect it citizens to abide by moral laws without educating them on what is expected of them.  Like it or not, your ruling body is your "god".  It provides the standards for a harmonious society and it enforces them.  Any other way seems illogical to me.  

 

From my point of view (Biblical), you are right that humans are under no obligation to make the choices that will fix this mess.  At the same time, the ruling powers are under no obligation to keep them alive to ruin the peace of law abiding citizens.  Free will carries responsibilities and limitations with it.  We can freely choose whether we want to wear blue or black trousers, but we don't have lawful freedom to kill our brother. I feel a deja-vu. Maybe we covered this ground before? And for the record, I don't believe bad people will go to a fiery hell.  That's BS.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Yeah, I get why you posted it - and yeah, it's frustrating. But what's the actual objective?

 

"Mankind has tried all forms of government with all it's permeations.  There is nothing new under the sun"

 

Which of those was at a time when we had the technology (communications, transport, etc) to affect things on a global level? Are you suggesting there has never been an egalitarian government? And, what problems did they face that we know about, that weren't solved, that we're still trying to solve now?

 

Your entire argument lies on "we have problems now, so obviously we're unable to fix them' - clearly a logical fallacy!

 

The problems the world faces now are NOT the same as the ones that faced the world 3000 years ago. Nor even 300 years ago. So you're also making false analogies by suggesting that "all forms of government have failed".

 

The US political system is seriously flawed... and trying to measure that as the best the world has ever seen (or even, the best form of democracy the world has ever seen)  is just plain ridiculous! (it seems to be only Americans and Chinese who want to debunk democracy that think otherwise!)

 

You're also presuming that all forms of government have been tried... they haven't! For one quick example off the top of my head - demarchy..

 

 

"Does it make a difference whether the poison in the water was 1% or 50%?  No.  It's all worthless."

 

Umm - is that rhetorical??? Seriously? It's extremely rare to get 100% pure drinking water.... and virtually ALL drinking water has toxins in it that, if sufficient, could kill use. Does that mean they're all equally "worthless"?

 

The same argument applies that we've had before.... you think we should have already fixed the problems of the world, and because we haven't, we never will.

 

The problems lie not with the governments, but with the people. It was written above earlier. Some small and specific forms of government have worked well... for a time.

 

And this, therefore, begs the questions of what exactly IS the role of government?

 

 

The alien intervention is scientifically more likely to occur than deity intervention. Belief in a god takes faith, Belief in aliens takes science and statistics.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I'm not seeing a significant difference between your two views of government responsibilities.

 

By 'ruling powers' are you referring to deity or human? I can only presume the former, with your comment on "  At the same time, the ruling powers are under no obligation to keep them alive to ruin the peace of law abiding citizens."

 

But surely this begs the question  if a deity is allowed to 'kill' (whatever that may happen to mean to such a being) humans who  won't keep the peace for the other citizens, then what's wrong with a human government doing the same?

 

 

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xinyuren:

"Which of those was at a time when we had the technology (communications, transport, etc) to affect things on a global level? Are you suggesting there has never been an egalitarian government? And, what problems did they face that we know about, that weren't solved, that we're still trying to solve now?"

 

I'm surprised I have to answer this question yet again for you.  We have agreed that the core of the important problems we face are human problems.  Everything springs from human selfishness and greed.  I have related these problems many times and my hands are tired.  I don't know what more I can say.  We have always struggled to deal with these problems, but as long as we have greedy, selfish people, we will have these problems.

 

"Your entire argument lies on "we have problems now, so obviously we're unable to fix them' - clearly a logical fallacy!"

 

Says you!  The human species is unable to fly without the aid of machines.  This is a biological limitation of humans.  The only way this limitation can be exceeded is if there is a significant biological change to human bodies.  Therefore we are unable to fix this "problem" (the problem being we can't fly unaided by external aparatus).   I put forth that self-rule is a inherent limitation for humans (The Bible says we were not designed to rule ourselves without divine guidance).  Therefore, unless something changes in the basic design of humans, we are unable to successfully rule ourselves independently for any significant length of time.  Since history proves this to be true, I put my trust in what the Bible says.  You have "faith", that mankind will learn. Since I have history on my side and you just have "faith", where does that leave your conclusion?

 

"The problems the world faces now are NOT the same as the ones that faced the world 3000 years ago. Nor even 300 years ago. So you're also making false analogies by suggesting that "all forms of government have failed".

 

The problems we face now are fundamentally the same as they have been throughout  the written history of mankind.  All major problems (the ones that really matter) have its roots in selfishness and greed.  Sure, they weren't killing each other for iPhones in the Middle Ages, but whatever they were killing each other for, it was fueled by one of those traits. If we could remove selfishness and greed, we could remove virtually all our important problems.  But the nature of man hasn't changed since the beginning of recorded history and man has developed nothing that can counteract this inherent nature.

 

"You're also presuming that all forms of government have been tried... they haven't! For one quick example off the top of my head - demarchy.."

 

Noone in their right mind would ever institute a demarchy.  It hasn't been tried because it is an idiotic idea that will never work.  Try another one.   Maybe I should have written, "all forms of government have been considered" to satisfy eggheads like you.

 

"Umm - is that rhetorical??? Seriously? It's extremely rare to get 100% pure drinking water.... and virtually ALL drinking water has toxins in it that, if sufficient, could kill use. Does that mean they're all equally "worthless"?"

 

umm.  I was comparing bad government to poison water if you didn't get the comparison.  You know, like arsenic or cyanide?  1% arsenic will easily make us sick if not kill us.  It is worthless for consumption except for killing someone.  Did you really not get this or were you purposely being facetious?   I was not talking about the toxins in a normal glass of water.  I was talking about poison.  1% arsenic will do the job as easily as 50%.  I'm not a chemist, but the average person should get this point.  Stress on average person. Anyways, why are you debating about my comparison when I already told you the meaning of it beforehand: I don't believe all governments are equally ineffective. I believe they all fail the test of greatness. Therefore, they are all useless to me because my standards require true greatness.

 

"The alien intervention is scientifically more likely to occur than deity intervention. Belief in a god takes faith, Belief in aliens takes science and statistics."

 

This is categorically wrong.  God, in essence, is an alien!  The definition of alien is a being not of this world.  That exactly describes our Creator.  So, no, when we look at the insurmountable amount of evidence we have on earth, belief in a Creator only requires science, statistics and reason.  Faith is not even required!

 

 

 

 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

"But surely this begs the question  if a deity is allowed to 'kill' (whatever that may happen to mean to such a being) humans who  won't keep the peace for the other citizens, then what's wrong with a human government doing the same?"

 

In my second example, The ruling parties I was referring to was indeed a diety, specifically, our Creator.  Our Creator is the only person that could rightly decide upon matters of life and death.  If we were created, only our Creator has a final say on our use and purpose.  Unless he delegated it, he alone holds sovereignty over us.  Furthermore only he has the ability to know who deserves to live and die.  He sets the standards for justice.  Humans can make mistakes and kill the wrong person.  God has no such limitations.  Also, since He is creator, He has a right to purpose us as he pleases.  For example, if I designed and built a chair for myself, I get to decide it's purpose.  If I want to use it as a table, this is my prerogative.   If I decided it was useless, it is my rightful decision to destroy it. Of course, if it fell into disrepair, since I created it, I would have the ability to rebuild it.  Even if the chair was conscious, I retain my rights of creatorship.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Firstly - I had to check on the toxicity levels of arsenic... FTR - it's less than 1%! (yes, I get it's irrelevant...)

 

So, back to the fun.....

 

"We have agreed that the core of the important problems we face are human problems."

 

I'm suggesting that the 'human problems' of things like famine on a global scale, disease (on a global scale), war, pollution, were NOT the same human problems that the hunter-gatherer society faced. Clearly, up until relatively recently (in humanity's history), pollution definitely wasn't an issue! Nor were concepts such as 'global scale' even in anyone's mind.

 

Humans have been around for a few hundred thousand years. 'Civilisation' for much less than that. Awareness of even other continents (the Americas, Oceania) weren't even known about until the last few hundred. And therefore 'global problems facing ALL humanity' didn't exist!

 

However - I accept that this is a different argument than what you're trying to put across...

 

Your real argument is that governments have a responsibility (or, from the other side - are completely unable) to guide human ethics into a more egalitarian, utilitarian position - one which emphasises equality, generosity, charity, and a care for the environment over individual pursuits for comfort. As you put it, to wipe out greed and selfishness.

 

Firstly, I'm not sure that it's the government's responsibility (although, I'd think that it's probably a good idea.... but see SUCH huge problems with it in practice!) I'd also suggest that communism (as an economic theory) and socialism are very good steps towards this ideal... capitalism isn't! Capitalism relies on greed and selfishness to work (for the few).

 

 

"The human species is unable to fly without the aid of machines...."

 

This is not a 'problem', and certainly not one that the whole human race should be working on! (although, if we did, and perhaps can, our geneticists within the next few hundred years might be able to come up with a solution!)

 

"I put forth that self-rule is a inherent limitation for humans...Therefore, unless something changes in the basic design of humans, we are unable to successfully rule ourselves independently for any significant length of time.  Since history proves this to be true,..."

 

And here is where we (and significant portions of the planet) disagree. Your perception of what a 'human' actually is. Your interpretation of such a being is brought about mostly from the bible (as well as your basic 5 senses, and your education). We are just meat, brain, and free will (somewhere, there's a soul, but I don't know (recall) how you envisage the connection between those four things. From what I gather, in your mind there is very little difference between the soul and the brain/body as far as awareness and consciousness are concerned. Thus, decisions by the brain and actions by the body are effectively the 'soul's'  - and whatever the body/brain does is to the full extent of the soul's. ie, there is nothing the soul 'knows' that the brain/body doesn't (obviously, correct me if I'm wrong - this is your world view I'm talking about).

 

So, it would appear that you're suggesting that this limitation is either genetic (physical) or part of the soul (which governs our actions). If this 'limitation is "inherent", then it says your god created humans to be fked up! God designed humanity to fail - to BE greedy and selfish! If this is the case, then yes, I can see why you'd say no human government is capable of fixing the world.

 

However, as you know, I don't see things the same way. And it is this difference that makes the entire difference to our perspectives. (and, there are many others - both on this forum and in the 7+billion - who also don't see things the same way)

 

For me...

 

A) there is SO much more to being human than what I described above. This includes knowledge and behaviour that is NOT merely dictated by either biology or society. I have my (experience based) belief in reincarnation and of the mechanism that stops our memories from returning life after life after life. Many other people have similar (experience based) beliefs. We all tend to be a bit different to the mainstream who do not have this (experience based) belief. There are tools to help people have those experiences. History has also shown that the majoriy of people aren't interested in such things :(

 

(*I stress "experience based" because it is SO different to just saying "I believe"  Q: would you be against these tools being widely available and used? Or is it a 'sin' to find out for ourselves if reincarnation is true?).

 

B) a government to make such changes would have ZERO chance of being put into power within the next few hundred years. However, there is growing movement for people who slowly change their perceptions The simple "yes, I DO actually know better than you" tends not to go down too well with people - even though logically they know it to be true (for certain bits of knowledge).

 

There may be individuals who may be able to rise up, even to the level of being a president or similar. But to introduce the sort of changes required is a global issue, and is potentially disastrous to a single nation (who will find opposition from other governments - let's just look at Ukraine for example, and the BS that happened there!)

 

 

"Maybe I should have written, "all forms of government have been considered" to satisfy eggheads like you."

 

Yes, of course :D :D And, even then, we don't really know if this is true or not!

 

 

"umm.  I was comparing bad government to poison water if you didn't get the comparison. "

 

Yes, of course. I just went with the analogy. And my analogy was that not all poisonED water is bad. There is a significant difference between 'poisonOUS' and 'poisonED'. The difference being, one can recover from the latter, and potentially get better, and even develop resistance. In the context of government, we can learn from our mistakes. We can have leaders who are intelligent and knowledgeable, who can guide humanity into a better way of being (at least, politically). Our governmental systems are changing!

 

We have not yet perfected democracy - but it's not something that has stagnated. The rule of the CCP, by its very nature, is stagnant. Democracy will change - significantly. The CCP rulership will not change - except to become more democratic.

 

 

"This is categorically wrong.  God, in essence, is an alien!  The definition of alien is a being not of this world.  That exactly describes our Creator.  So, no, when we look at the insurmountable amount of evidence we have on earth, belief in a Creator only requires science, statistics and reason.  Faith is not even required"

 

Firstly, you should try that argument on some of the forums I've been on - such as the anti-Intelligent Design forums.. see how far you get! (FTR - they're a nasty bunch!)

 

Secondlly, please revise your definition of the words 'alien', and 'god', unless you're Erik Von Daniken.

 

http://www.space.com/28185-rocky-alien-planets-habitable-zone.html

 

http://phys.org/news/2014-01-life-planets-widespread.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/feb/18/extrasolar.planets

 

http://www.seti.org/drakeequation

 

Please - where's your "science, statistics and reason" to show evidence of god?

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

"I'm suggesting that the 'human problems' of things like famine on a global scale, disease (on a global scale), war, pollution, were NOT the same human problems that the hunter-gatherer society faced. Clearly, up until relatively recently (in humanity's history), pollution definitely wasn't an issue! Nor were concepts such as 'global scale' even in anyone's mind."

 

You are referring to effects.  I am referring to core problems.  This is why you fail to see my point.  Pollution is not a core problem.  It is an effect of the problem.  We have a pollution problem because mankind is greedy and selfish.  We could easily get rid of our pollution if man was unselfish and altruistic in nature.  But, alas!  So I maintain that the core problems in mankind history has remained the same since the beginning.  Whether global or local, the core problem has been the same. This is the best way I can explain it.  If you can't understand my point now, we should just drop it.

 

"This is not a 'problem', and certainly not one that the whole human race should be working on! (although, if we did, and perhaps can, our geneticists within the next few hundred years might be able to come up with a solution!)"
 
 
This was another analogy that I used to illustrate my point about human limitations.  Am I that bad at analogies or are you just immune to them?
 
"And here is where we (and significant portions of the planet) disagree. Your perception of what a 'human' actually is. Your interpretation of such..."
 
I am not mankind's designer and I can't even begin to fathom the nature or source of this limitation.  We weren't designed for self rule.  That statement is sufficient enough for me.  I don't know how my components were made.  I can only acknowledge the skill and beauty.  As for your insinuation that we were made to be useless, I find that amusing.  If I design a chair that can't fly or can only be used by toddlers,  is my chair useless?  It's incredible that you would even suggest this line of reasoning.  The Bible says we were designed to be governed by God.  Under his rulership, we would prosper.  Apart from Him, we will......well, look at the world today.
 
Your suggestion that mankind and government can exceed it's current apparent limitation (I'm speaking of greed and selfishness) is just that....asuggestion.  There is no proof.  There is no precedence.  There is nothing but hope and faith.  My points have nothing to do with hope or faith.  "Someone may rise up...."  "We can get better" and such words are merely expressions of faith.  I won't deter your faith.  I'll just say that the probabilities are against you because we don't have an infinite amount of time.
 
"Firstly, you should try that argument on some of the forums I've been on - such as the anti-Intelligent Design forums.. see how far you get! (FTR - they're a nasty bunch!)"
 
I'm not debating with them and I am not interested in theoretical debates.  I am debating with you so let's here your argument.  You can use multiple specific definitions of alien, but I prefer to use the most widely known and popular definition.  The common  definition.  An alien is somebody who is not from around here (in this particular context, not from this planet)  I feel another theoretical debate coming from you but I think I sufficiently made my point.
 
My scientific basis for belief in a Creator is elementary:
1.  According to all proven laws of science, everything has an origin or "creator".  My chair, your computer, my daughter's toys...etc.  Setting aside the points of contention (biological life) there is nothing in this world that wasn't created by intelligent designers. You're an egghead so I will specify that this does not include raw materials.
2.  There are life forms on this earth that were not created by man. (the points of contention)
3.  Therefore it stands to reason that there exists another Intelligent creator besides man.
4.  No other sufficiently intelligent life form has been discovered on Earth.
5.  Therefore there is a high degree of probability that the Creator of the life forms on Earth resides outside of Earth.
6.  Thus, our Creator is an alien.
 

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Shining_brow:

From above: "So these countries you mentioned have no corruption, no poor people, no financial crisis, no polution, no crime or social problems, are immune to the climate change, are also immune to deadly disease, and everyone is happy with their treatment by the government?"

 

Looks like you were referring to those as the 'core problems...

 

But I do get your point. It probably would have been helpful if you delineated that in your OP.

 

"

This was another analogy that I used to illustrate my point about human limitations.  Am I that bad at analogies or are you just immune to them?"
 
(oh, crap... formatting is gonna suck again!)
 
No - I take the analogy further than you intend. In this case, as per the other one, while there is this 'limitation', what's to say it can't be overcome at some point? (I mean, other than your belief...).
 
 
 
"That statement is sufficient enough for me."
 
Therein lies the issue.... It's sufficient for you, it's not for me (and many/most? others).
 
I just did a ctrl-F on the word 'useless'... I didn't use it!
 
"The Bible says..." And I don't!
 
" There is no precedence" Ah, yes, there is! It may not have lasted long due to outside influences (and sometimes inside), but yes - there are precedents! AND... you're also ignoring small-scale situations of 'government'. You will probably suggest it doesn't count, but merely looking at most (many? some?) temples and communes around the world, and you can see that it has and does work.
 
"I'll just say that the probabilities are against you because we don't have an infinite amount of time."
 
We don't need an infinite amount of time... but whether we'll last long enough to see it... hard to say. I've said this before - I do think (know) it's possible to fix this 'human' greed and selfishness... although I don't know if we actually will before we wipe ourselves out (again).
 
 
Belief in creator:
 
"1.  According to all proven laws of science, everything has an origin or "creator"."
 
Origin - yes. Creator - no (as far as scientific proof). The two are vastly different concepts. The latter is an intelligent entity, the former is a process and state. You've just hit the first stumbling block of joining religion and science. The majority of scientists are atheists, who will agree that there is an origin, but it was not 'created'.
 
2.  There are life forms on this earth that were not created by man. (the points of contention)
 
There's contention in that????
 
 
3.  Therefore it stands to reason that there exists another Intelligent creator besides man.
 
See my response to 1.
 
4.  No other sufficiently intelligent life form has been discovered on Earth.
 
Arguable, but I'll let you have it...
 
 
5.  Therefore there is a high degree of probability that the Creator of the life forms on Earth resides outside of Earth.
 
See response to 1. Though, it wouldn't surprise me, and in fact it's been put forth as a scientific explanation - life came from 'outer space' - organisms travelling on comets, hit Earth, reproduced - hey presto, life! Others have also suggested that life on Earth was intentionally brought here (and engineered) by (non-deity-like) aliens, re- Erik von Daniken (although, IIRC, he reckoned the aliens came after humans had started doing stuff...).
 
6.  Thus, our Creator is an alien.
 
See response to 1. Although...  it should be fairly self-evident (meaning, needs to be scientifically proven somehow) that humans did not create themselves...
 
 
"You're an egghead so I will specify that this does not include raw materials."
 
Why? I'd think that to have faith in a 'creator' that the very fundamental existence of this universe (maths, physics, chemistry - especially at the sub-atomic level) would imply the necessity of the intentional (designed) creation of 'raw materials'. Everything we are capable of perceiving is only possible because of those fundamentals. Would life be possible with a different set of fundamental raw materials? I don't know, but probably... but not like it is here. No good raw materials, no design of other things! (I think cosmologists and mathematicians are more likely to believe in a creator than biologists and their ilk).

 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

"what's to say it can't be overcome at some point? (I mean, other than your belief...)."

 
What's to say it can (besides your hope)?.  At least my belief is based on a decent set of probabilities.  Your hope is based on phase1: boundless enthusiasm and optimism.
 
""That statement is sufficient enough for me."
 
Therein lies the issue.... It's sufficient for you, it's not for me (and many/most? others)."
 
Most?  Be real.  Most others don't give a rat's #$$ about these issues.   If it's not sufficient for you, keep looking, its not my problem.  Scientists certainly are looking and they have more questions than answers.  They will never figure out how we work or the difference between life and death and the workings of our brain.  They have only skimmed the surface and they still scratch themselves in confusion and awe at the creative handiwork.  Don't expect to get your answers anytime soon.
 
""The Bible says..." And I don't!"
 
And what has that to do with this conversation.  If I compare the Bible's answers to real life results and facts (in a sort of a truth test), I get correlation.  When I compare your hopes, speculations and "experiences" to real life, I get even more questions and speculations.  So why should I even care if you don't? 
 
" There is no precedence" Ah, yes, there is! ..."
 
Please cite a precedence where a governing body got rid of greed and selfishness.
 

"Origin - yes. Creator - no (as far as scientific proof). The two are vastly different concepts. The latter is an intelligent entity, the former is a process and state. You've just hit the first stumbling block of joining religion and science. The majority of scientists are atheists, who will agree that there is an origin, but it was not 'created'."

 

There is no scientific proof of a creative process either.  Only speculations and theories. So both ideas are on equal footing (who said anything about religion?).  But here is what I find interesting about this matter:  No one has seen any such creative process before (the one described by evolutionary scientists).  In fact, scientific law tells us that complex objects can't come from a natural process alone.  In the observable world, any process that creates anything was designed by man.  In the observable world, the only way anything complex gets done is if it was initiated in some way by an intelligence.  We have creative processes going on all around the factories and laboratories of the world.  All designed and overseen by an intelligent designer:  Man.   Yet Evolutionists choose not to even consider the possiblity of an Intelligent Creator of life!  At the very least, this is irresponsible science and negligence.  Because man hasn't figured out the substance of life, no one has?  What arrogance!  There isn't a single law of science preventing evolution scientists from considering an intelligent creator. Not one.  There is a ton a conflicting science in the way of a naturally occuring creative process (evolution), which is why there are as many theories of evolution as there are evolutionary scientists.  Yet your scientists chose evolution? No.  What they are really doing is rejecting the idea of God. They have made Evolution their religion! It is the evolutionists who have the stumbling block from connecting religion and science. What irony!

 

And don't make it seem that the scientific community is in agreement on this issue.  Far from it.   Evolutionary theory is just one faction among many.

 

""2.  There are life forms on this earth that were not created by man. (the points of contention)
 
There's contention in that????"
 
the life forms are our points of contention.  I guess I could have put the parenthesis in a better place.
 
 
 

 

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

""You're an egghead so I will specify that this does not include raw materials."
 
Why? I'd think that to have faith in a 'creator'..."
 
For simplicity's sake, I wanted to confine my argument to organic life.  When dealing with an egghead like yourself, the more information I present into the argument means just more things for you to nitpick at

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Everyone who has debated me on my admittedly provocative topic have missed the whole point (with the exception of Shiningbrow) .  You people think that because you have the most shiny things, that you are great.  Your basis for greatness are the distractions that the powers that be have put before you.  This is the whole purpose of propaganda.  Propaganda's value has displayed itself in full bloom on this forum.  But the real issues that face us, that threaten our very existence are still unsolved.  Neither your beautiful democracy nor the "evil" communists have been able to solve the problems that really matter.  Instead, they lull you to sleep with wine and promises of freedom and prosperity.  It is beyond their ability to do any better.

 

The only thing they can do is bicker among themselves.  The blue says the red is evil and the red says the blue is the devil, when the reality is they both are the same.  Meanwhile in China, they are having the same discussions with the same problems.  They are approaching the problems differently than in the west, but they are equally impotent.

 

Calling China evil makes no sense.  Their politicians have the same goal as the politicians in the West.  Politics is a lucrative job.  They want to keep their job and power.  They will do almost anything to that end.  If the common people can benefit from it, all the better, but it is not a requisite for the job.  When the illusion is broken, things start going downhill, thus propaganda is necessary and is very effective.  If you think you aren't a victim of it, then you are an even greater victim.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  There are no good guys in this scenario.

Englteachted:

Who said China is evil? Also The institution CCP, government, can do whatever they want to their people, there is no recourse. People, don't have access to information about what their government is doing. They can't express dissenting opinions. If they do, they'll go to jail. Americans have access to information but choose not to know anything. Americans can organize political movements to change what the government does, start new parties but we choose not to (effectively anyway)

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

A couple of posters above implied or directly said that the CCP is evil.  This is a useless thought.  Communism is simply another form of government.  It is based on a different set of principles and ideas about the nature of man.  It is no more evil than Democracy.  You are right.  Americans have the freedom to attempt to change the direction of government.  What you omit to say is those attempts rarely do anything to fundamentally change anything.  The power players remain entrenched and they will not let the common person affect their things.  Yes, its possible to change the system, but you will only change it to the extent that they let you.  In the end, we are in the same basic situation as Chinese citizens.  The big difference is we have more human rights and the illusion of choice keeps us happier and probably makes us more independent.

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Define the phrase "chinese characteristics", which is the phrase used by the ccp to set itself apart from the rest of the world..and you will find the inevitable and quite obvious answer.

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Hehe, I just thought of an amusing simile:  the difference between Communism and Democracy is like the difference between Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton.  Depending on your point of view, one of them sucks less than the other.

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You can put lipstick on a pig,,,but it's still a pig.

Waxing philosophical by judging a nations shortcomings is a futile endeavor....judge it by its positives.

For all of America's faults her positives vastly outweigh her negatives compared to most countries...including China.

Comparing China and the US is like comparing North and South Korea...democracy always wins in the end.....regardless of the Brexit. and Trump.

 

xinyuren:

ding ding ding.  You won the prize.  Somebody finally gets the point.  It took a little coaxing, but you have come to the right conclusion.  Partisan bickering is pointless.  Unless someone has the real answers (they don't), you're just throwing each other's mud at each other.

 

 I only have one point of disagreement:  You said, in the end, Democracy will always win.  This is where you are wrong.  While it's true, Democracy is the most comfortable way for most (most!), including myself, it will end the same way as Communism and any other form of government. Due to the nature of humans, no human government can be really good.  Only sufficient.  If sufficiency is your goal, Yay for Democracy, you are adequate!  If by "in the end", you mean "when the two are compared", then I can't argue with that.  I personally prefer living under a Democracy if my only other choice is Communism.  Democracy is the least unfavorable choice. Your idea about Democracy being the best form of government in the world may be true(it depends on one's point of view), but that's not saying much. The bar is set really low.

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this is probably off topic or doesn't make sense like all of you guys serious analysis,,, but I thought I would mention it anyway,,,,

 

I was in the CCCP back in the 70's, just a visit, the people didn't seem too happy,,, lol,,  some outright begging too...

I also snuck into Cuba once back in the 80's ,,, not many US WASP's doing that at the time,,,,  even though I had a great time there you could tell the people hated it. I've also spent a lot of time in Chinerlandia and a bit of time in 'Nam,,  so I have some real reference points, lived a long time in the US and UK,  and let me tell u,, Communism, a funny name for Dictatorship,,, people living under it don't fkn like it.  simple fact.  

does US governmental system work great?  probably not,, but it seems to stumble along in the right direction generally speaking.

Englteachted:

Well put.

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

not off topic. It makes sense.

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Shining_brow:

Probably because the word 'communism' has become confused with 'dictatorship' or 'totalitarian'.

 

In a true communist state, ALL wealth would be distributed EVENLY to the populace (ie, everyone!!!). The places you mentioned haven't had this happen yet. Therefore, there hasn't been a true (nation-wide) communism (although apparently there was a Persian king who tried something like it briefly... but he was still the king :p)

7 years 34 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@ shining - That's a good point.  Politics works much better on paper than in real life.  So there has never been a working communist government, huh?  Maybe there's never been a working democratic one either.  Maybe we're all living under different levels of dictatorshipssurprise.  (just joking, don't pick at it).

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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change student visa to labourer one is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77