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Q: 'Chinese biologically different' to explain TCM?
I've recently gotten into arguments over traditional Chinese medicine, its mysticism, the effects on endangered species, blablabla...
The latest 'argument' I'm getting in its defense is that traditional Chinese medicine is valid because Chinese people's constitution is different.
At this point, the discussion was effectively over, which was perhaps for the best.
Anyone else been faced with this gem of an argument before?
11 years 51 weeks ago in Health & Safety - China
I love it when they tell me, "It takes longer for it to work but indeed it does work." I then say that time and the body will naturally heal almost anything. They usually storm off in a huff at that point.
- Eating yak penis enables you to get it up easier and longer
- Eating deer heart makes your heart stronger
- Eating cow tendons makes your joints stronger
I say....."Placebo"
FruitIsGood:
The third one sounds like it might work. Not too convinced on the others. -_-
Mr_spoon:
Fuck scientific research when you have a long history, am I right?
Sometimes I wonder if it is the power of the mind and thoughts, just casualty, or what, but Chinese persons truly believe that it does work.
My GF swears by the fact (to her) that if you eat animal parts, it will strengthen your corresponding human parts. If you eat intestines, your intestines will be healthier. If you eat animal heart, yours will gain strength. And so forth.
At first, I will discuss with her the issue, and the debate will last for hours without anything achieved except maybe me sleeping on the sofa that evening. So, I became wiser and stopped debating the issue. I do enjoy the taste, and my GF cooking on most of these "medicinal" foods. Why argue ?.
So now, she eats them convinced they will help her improve her health and mine, and I eat them because I do enjoy the taste, and everyone is happy (well, maybe the sofa is lonesome......).
FruitIsGood:
What about how your kids are raised? (assuming you will/do/were to have kids)
If 1/2 believes these things and raises the kids with those beliefs, how does one navigate such dissonance?
all part of of the indoctrination. chinese people are special. better than others on this planet. which is why they see the world as chinese and not chinese
nevermind:
Which makes me laugh, cause it's possibly this crappiest place on the planet and EVERYTHING Is worse here.
If you have time watch this clip by Billy Connolly on "new age medicine" cracks me up and 100% true.
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=2686031473970491218&hl=en
Jíliú.hé:
i think i now have to give you thumps ups when ever i see your post
Ok, as a TCM practitioner (well, trained), I'll jump in....
Firstly, the word 'constitution' does NOT equate to 'biological'! So, there's your first major blunder.
I'm NOT going to argue about what it does to endangered species (or any other species, for that matter), because on that, I TOTALLY agree... there is NO need to hack into animals or plants...
But, we have a different diet, a different 'energy pattern' (ie, cycle... eg, I can get up in the morning, and go through til night... Chinese are used to having their midday nap). We have different exercise routines and requirements. To put it completely simply, you'll notice that the Chinese physique is somewhat different to a western physique.
But, most importantly, in TCM (and, for that matter, in western medicine as well), how we perceive the medicine has a DIRECT effect on its efficacy. The BEST western drugs will be meaningless if someone doesn't believe they will have any effect on them.. (yeah, go on - tell me all about poisons and narcotics.. I'm talking about MEDICINE - not merely drugs). There is MORE to the human than just a body.
THAT'S what 'constitution' means!
Significant enough of a difference - probably not! But, all humans ARE different...
kchur:
So, what you're saying is that everything is a placebo. If I get a brain tumor and a surgeon takes it out, just a placebo?
Jíliú.hé:
no he is saying that everything is reaction based and that Chinese body’s and mind are set up to react better to Chinese medicine most of the time, so a herb will help their headache better than a pill will.
To give an example a b c and d are letters but a goes better with b than with c and goes better with d.
So horse penis does not cure cancer but it might treat a headache if the person is set up to react to it.
So if the mind and body are not ready or willing to except treatment the treatment will not work. But sometime TCM will because a Chinese persons mind and body are able to except it.
But none or that matters ether way you can prove it, you can prove how a lot of TCM works. the same way leeches and maggots are still widely use in today’s western medicine because they work and you can prove it.
Shining_brow:
No Kchur, I'm saying that in TCM (and my opinion) is that we're not JUST a meat-sack... to effectively treat a human (and any other animal, for that matter), yoiu need to look at beyond just the body.
And, as we know scientifically from western medicine, there are some drugs which have no (discernible) effects on some people.. same is to be said for TCM. Waht's the relevant difference? People want to say that western medicine has 'valid' reasons for it not working... and TCM is just hocum...
BTB, I did specifically put in the bit about DRUGS - not opening someone up!
Jíliú.hé:
TCM is drugs what do you think drugs are man.
drug/drəg/
Noun:
A substance that has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body, in particular.
Verb:
Administer a drug to (someone) in order to induce stupor or insensibility.
Synonyms:
read this one
noun. medicine - medicament - narcotic - remedy - dope - cure
verb. dope
TMC cures and treatments are drugs so is western medicine which is the only real medicine because it is the only one that is explained tested and proven. Half of TCM has become part of western medicine it is only the stuff that they have not tested yet or have not proved works that is still TCM. Which is why TCM is called TCM because the only way to prove it works is with western medicine, and if you prove that it works with western medicine then it is western medicine. We are meat sacks and your drugs are still drugs only you cannot prove it is not killing people unless you are not using TCM.
Shining_brow:
Ummm - what???
By your 'logic', acupuncture is a drug... as is cupping, tui na, moxibustion, qi gong, tai qi, etc etc...
TCM is a range of treatments, not just the herbal medicine!
Jíliú.hé:
so is western medicine my aunt is a physical therapist and my uncle is a dental surgeon they do not do nothing but give out meds but they can prove everything they do western medicine is the scientific method TCM is tradition.
WHY ADMINISTRATOR CAT SURPRESS GLORIOUS CHINESE SCIENTIST?
CAT IS TONGUE OF FOREIGNER OBAMA GOVERNMENT???
kchur:
"ME AM FOREIGNER SCIENTIST HOUSE ME AM PROVE EAT BANANA SO DELICIOUS"
"ME AM GLORIOUS CHINESE SCIENCE HOUSE ME AM PROVE EVERY TRUE FACT!!!!"
I get this argument all the time from my gf when I try to discredit TMC as hogwash.
She is sooo stubborn she will refuse Advil from me in favor of some hocus pocus herb even though she is is in pain.
Her argument is routinely "but I Chinese we are no same same"
I get the same argument after she douses her cooking with gobs of oil and salt. When I complain she says "Chinese people no problem eat this way.. we live long time"
Jíliú.hé:
the dude there are tons of scientifically proven alternatives to Advil, so do not nock it till you do a study proving the herbs and natural compounds all the pharmaceutical companies study to make all there pills, do not actually work. though most of it is crap who was it who brought us silver eggs
I will have to agree with Happy, mind over body and a definite placebo effect. Of course who cares if you take all your endangered species and make them extinct, and the as long as I'm ok complex is rampant here. And the dude, tell me about it, my god, my wife spent 2K rmb on Chinese traditional herbs that looks like oil and tastes about the same for some common problems she has with her health, the western doctor I go to told her two things a while back.
One: Exercise doesn't kill you
Two: Take vitamins
My wifes response, it's a chemical and too much sun is bad for your health
So I took some of this traditional medicine from her bag and took it to my doctor, just to see what it really was. Licquorice, WTF, 2k rmb for a bag of roots and leaves they use to make licquorice and they take it for pain, colds, fevers, unknown diseases, fatique and anything else you can think of. Side effects: constipation, causes liver disease, increases heart rate and blood pressure, burning sensation when you pee, over use can cause severe kidney damage.
So tell me please: really WTF
Shining_brow:
You're not seriously going to go down the line of 'side-effects = bad medicine" , are you???
Do you really want me to pull out my lil medicine cabinet of western drugs and reel off all the side-effects possible?/ (including, I might add - DEATH!)
OTOH, what's a 'side-effect' for one application just happens to be an indication for a different issue. Take one of what you just said - licquorice can cause constipation... fantastic if you're suffering from diarrhoea - yes??
No, you can't effectively say I'm full of crap with that one - Aspirin - don't take if you have low blood pressure... but fantastic for reducing high blood pressure - see, western medicine does the same thing!
Are you specifically against the use of licqorice, because it's a fairly common herb? Or because it's flavour is nice enough to be replicated into candy? Or just because it's used in TCM, therefore it must be crap and useless??? (which, FTR, it's also used in western herbal medicine). Or are you against the use of any sort of 'herbal medicine', because western medicine is obviously superior (and yet, all of our drugs started out as herbal prescriptions, until we whittled away and left only the active ingredients...)
FruitIsGood:
I agree with your points Shining Brow, but 2000RMB sounds like a steep price. -_-
Shining_brow:
Well, true! I would NEVER suggest that,while part of what is passed of as 'TCM' isn't crap, it's also expensive rip-off crap!!! Makes it more believable here! "It must be good, I paid lots of money for it... and, I'll need to pay much more for it to be effective long-term".
OK Shining-brow Ague these two points don't deflect as normal.
You need to apply logic here as hard as that may be. You also have a huge conflict of interest that effects their impartiality because you make your living I pressume from others believing all of you unproven cures.
Let me give you a simple rebuttal to ONE of your claims.
You claim medicine will not work if the patient does not believe it will work. '
OK how do you explain what happens when a Doctor first arrives in a remote African village where malaria is endemic. They use western medicine and the locals are cured (if they don't have a resistant strain). Insert any number of curable diseases in place of malaria. They can't even speak the language and have nothing to believe in or not
While I am on a roll. How is traditional medicine doing in China in it's fight against Hep B. Lets now look at how many of those who have the vaccine have contacted the virus.
Eagerly awaiting your reply
Jíliú.hé:
woody i think he ment that people often improve more from TCM becouse they beliave in it and there bodys are set up to recieve it. or at list i hope other wise he is an idiot who needs to be put down like a dog that wont stop walking in circles.
Shining_brow:
What's my "deflect as normal"??? I love logic - I love applying logic... I hate when other people don't - and I see it a LOT in the TCM argument!
BTW, no, I don't practice - I can't be stuffed trying to look after other people's health - but I did learn it back home - and in doing so, a goodly amount of (western) pathophysiology, biochemisty, anatomy, physiology, etc... enough to put me into a 2nd year B.SC. program (or heading towards a medical degree...).
I didn't (or didn't intend) to say that the mind is the ONLY influence on the efficacy of medicine - that would be just stupid. Just as stupid as saying it has NO effect... I"m NOT against western medicine - but just because I can accept the efficacy of western medicine doesn't mean I have to discredit any other form of medicine - does it???
Does western medicine work all the time, in all situations? Well, the proof is out there - NO! (oops, looks like western medicine just handed over its flawless victory!)
How is it against Hepatitis? Well, according to some studies, not too bad! A previous poster put up about licquorice - well, guess what - scientific research on RATS has shown that it actually helps in that regard!
(I'll continue in a post futher down...)
Yes it is true why do you think there are a bunch of different heart and cholesterol medicines for black people every one has different medical needs, and some ethnicities have different ones. Though I do think it is complete bull for them to use it as a copout for shoving raw salamander up there ass’s when they get a cold.
I myself refuse to take any form of medicine that does not directly save or lengthen my life on the Basis that it weakens the collective of humanity, it interferes with the body’s natural signals and function which will make you sicker if you use it to treat pains. Though I might have this opinion because I suffered years of horrible side effects from the medications they had me on for my autism. But most people thinks I am crazy because I hate taking pills so I keep an open mind most of the time.
Though I do strongly believe that natural medicine is the best form of medicine if it can be proven scientifically, and that only idiots get over the counter medicine when they are feeling bad.
Huey Lewis And The News - I Want A New Drug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uEMOeDZsA
here just to answer lord wu mao
The FDA Approves a Race-Specific Drug for the First Time in History. Will it Address the Real Health Issues Facing African-Americans?
Pharmacogenetics, personalized medicine, and race | Learn Science at Scitable
Will tomorrow's medicines work for everyone? - Nature Genetics
Ethnic Differences in Cardiovascular Drug Response
and no fried chicken is not why
crimochina:
you are clearly dumb. different medicines for different races?? you really need to brush up on your reading comprehension. greater health risk to something is completely different and it has more to do with eating habits.
Jíliú.hé:
you are clearly not a black man and to prove it
Pharmacogenetics, personalized medicine, and race | Learn Science at Scitable
Will tomorrow's medicines work for everyone? - Nature Genetics
Ethnic Differences in Cardiovascular Drug Response
and no fried chicken is not why
lord wu mao
As for TCM, after reading an article about some of it having harmful chemicals...let's just say I've never touched the stuff. If every other food and drink has some kind of safety scandal, would TCM be safe either? It's not like many people are questioning it in China. I will not take something if I don't know what it is and what it does. I had a cold and went to the clinic on campus, and she wanted to give me 3 different things. I don't know if they were regular medicine or TCM and I don't care. It was in Chinese and I couldn't read it, so I'm not going to take it. Doctors can be wrong too, it's important to do research. As for the Advil thing, yes, I've had several friends refuse to take any for cramps because they think it is bad for them. One won't take any pills at all, she'd rather just suffer. Me, I take ibuprofen. It works, consistently, and it's not a placebo effect.
Jíliú.hé:
ya i took that whem i bad a bad case of pneumonia last finales i think i got stuck with a 98 on my psych finale but hay at least i did not get an incomplete.
Shining_brow:
Just as a general point, pretty much everything you're putting in your body has chemicals you're not aware of (food and water are chemicals...). Cerrtainly, western drugs fall into the same category.
Ok, firstly I think we all need to accept that there's a LOT of ignorance on BOTH sides of the fence on this issue! Most Chinese know bugger all about western medicine - AND TCM! And, most westerners know bugger all about TCM (and, for that matter, about western medicine!). Both sides just agree with the general public in the society they were brought up in! And, in doing so, have formed opinions regarding their own, and any other, form of medicine (often called 'alternative).
I choose to use both. I acknowledge that some western medicine is crap (or, should I say, quite specific in its usage), and much TCM is crap. TCM, however, suffers another problem - its history. About 60 years ago, a certain leader decided that knowledge was bad, and ignorance must rule - so China lost a lot of its knowledge (which, fortunately, went overseas 
). The result is that most Chinese are blissfully ignorant of their own stuff.
The FACTS are that both forms of medicine are great for certain things... while being woefully deficient in other areas. Also, in relation to TCM, it's not a quick fix thing... it's based around the idea of 'balance' - and it takes a hell of a lot to get back into balance! One quick pill, or herb, or needle, will not get that balance back. Western medicine attempts to fix the immediate problem, TCM looks at over-all situations. So, drinking hot water may be better for you - to get your balance back (if that's what the problem was...) - not to 'fix' you... (and, drinking cold water didn't 'make you sick'... it was just an additional 'weight' to upset the balance).
Back to what I said... western medicine is great for some things, TCM is great for other things. The best example I like to use for this situation - post stroke paralysis. Western medicine has basically NOTHING effective for it (nothing that gives a good success rate, anyway...). TCM, however, can treat it, and effectively! Medical acupuncture - using needles (and ONLY needles) as anasthetic during an operation (yeah, a full cut open into the abdomen, not just a little stitch somewhere).
Jnusb416:
My mother uses acupuncture to help with pain, and if it works for her, then I support it. I also think that some TCM can be useful for certain things. However, I think people get mad because there are people who only believe in TCM or only believe in Western medicine, and don't think that the other will help them. It also doesn't help that a lot of the TCM that is promoted in China doesn't work. I think some herbs and other plants can do some great stuff, but I like it much better when it's backed up with scientific evidence.
Scandinavian:
interestingly, this unnamed leader was a heavy user of western medicine
Shining, my point was the myth of one is better than the other, or that we are different. I take both Western Medicine and traditional medicine, it's simple to say that the Chinese believe only they are correct in all facets of life, and i say that's wrong
Thanks shining. From your previous posts I just assumed that you discounted all western medicine. I too do not think Western medicine is a cure all (but some drugs and vaccines are proven to have almost 100% success rates) or do I discount all TCM as it is also a proven fact that belief in things will assist in wellbeing and wellbeing assists in healing. It is when you get back to the drinking hot water or the different physiology stories or those who tell you tall tales like cupping expelling (air? or something else) from the body or blood vessels that you loose me again. Let us explore the stroke story again. Stroke is a lifestyle related problem and change by adapting heatlthy lifestyle can reduce it's occurrence. There are also a number of Western medicines that are PROVEN to be very effective in reducing strokes in the first place. Acupuncture has anectdotal evidence in helping rehab after stroke but so does physical therapy and the body and brains ability to repair themselves. But to say medicine has nothing effective shows you do not tell the truth or ignore published studies and literature. There is a treatment alteplase (TPA) a clot buster that can reverse the effects of a stroke in 1/3 of patients if they are treated within 4 hrs of their stroke. Yes it can cause around 6% of those treated to bleed more and have complications. Great medical breakthroughs are happening all the time improving stroke treatment. Maybe you need to do some research on it for your BSC degree.
My suggestion would be that acupuncture would be well down the list of places where most logical and well researched people in any country would hang their hats if they were unlucky enough to suffer a stroke. But hey shinning lets not let truth stand in the way of a good story.
Shining_brow:
Ah Woody.....
Ok, I haven't looked up much research on this sort of stuff for a few years now, as I've been out of that line for a while. Cool to hear that western medicine is coming along with it. Obviously, I was referring to post-incident, not pre-. For now, I'm more considering an M.Ed. or Phd.D. or something similar in TESOL.
I think TCM needs a lot more research to be done on it - but it needs to be a form of research that actually uses the paradigms it works with... not merely from the western perspectives. Eg, there are about a dozen different TCM reasons for headache... so, just taking a single treatment and seeing if it works or not doesn't really count as research (not without a TCM diagnosis first) - that's just sticking needles into people!
Most people don't like anecdotes, but when you know someone who had complete paralysis and NO feeling in part of their body for more than 2 decades (not 4 hours) - and they got it back in ONE treatment - do you really want to discount it???
woody:
Wow. I believe. No feeling in part of his body, ONE treatment. CURE Wow. Must be true I believe. No one thought to document this. I hope you took him for a ride on your flying carpet once he recovered. I am not trying to infer that very strange things do not happen but as I self proclaimed educated person surely you understand that provenance of any cure takes a large number of results and needs to be measured against a placebo. I am sure that somewhere someone also knows a person who had lung cancer and just gave up and started smoking more cigarettes, then became well. Would you know believe that smoking cures lung cancer.
Shining_brow:
Oh, I didn't realise that personal experience isn't worth relating - my bad! I mean, from what I gather, that's what everyone else wants to bring into the discussion...
Sure, if you want to only allow for documented research, then we can spend time on that (because, after all, my documented case studies are meaningless...)
And, yes, I was impressed too! I expected at least a few months treatment... but the guy knew what he was doing.
So, Woody, I presume you think that TCM is 100% crap???
Western Medicine shines in areas that TCM is very weak, and vice versa. Diagnosis of certain conditions can be done very accurately in Wester Medicine. Fixing a broken bone, killing an infection, etc.... Other conditions that tests and treatment are totally lacking in Western Medicine, TCM can do amazingly well Allergies, Skin conditions, Menstrual Pain etc.... People who think TCM is fake, explain to me how I see a TCM Dr tell a woman she is pregnant just by holding her wrist, and then proceed to tell her the sex of the baby? or people who are allergic to Novacane from the dentist can use TCM acupuncture to block all of their pain during treatment at a dentist?
When Western Medicine relies on pain symptom management, or symptom blocking for certain diseases, and has NO treatment for actually curing a certain disease, (allergies, chronic diarrhea etc) those are usually the areas that Chinese medicine can do very well.
It's nothing more than a pathetic attempt to save face. "Oh, well we've been doing it for years, so our genetic make up is used to these remedies" total BS. Just laugh at them and remember, when you leave China (As I have) and go back to the outside world, China looks so ridiculous no one gives it any serious thought.
Do you know what they call alternative medicine (traditional Chinese, or otherwise) that has been proven to work? MEDICINE.
Shining_brow:
Well-known examples of “alternative medicines” that have made the transition to “medicine” include aspirin (explicitly cited in ‘Storm’) and artemisinin, a compound identified in a type of traditional Chinese herbal medicine, derivatives of which are now used to treat malaria.
GuilinRaf:
Recently, they also found out that the tonic water used by the British for their Gin and Tonics had an ingredient that protected against Malaria.
Note: Todays tonic water is much weaker to the one used 100+ years ago so it does not have the same effects.
MissA:
I thought people always knew that tonic water contains quinine, that's why it was called a tonic? And the gin was put in to make the crap they had to drink more palateable!
GuilinRaf:
No fair!
You know that only because you are Australian!!!
When I found out about this last year, I was astounded and so were my friends in THe States when I told them.
Ok, guess I have just reinforced the stereotype of the "ignorant American"
Carry one...!
I am curious... what are people's thoughts on this article... http://www.forbes.com/sites/sciencebiz/2011/03/27/chinese-medicine-infil...
Basically, a well respected medical publisher has decided to have a journal dedicated solely to TCM research - using the same research requirements for all it's other medical research (ie, what people tend to call 'scientific'). The author of this article is all against such a publication.
As I hope I've indicated above, I thik it's precisely what is needed... after all, you can't really say 'there's no evidence of it working', if you're not supposed to do any research!
Well, as a Chinese trained with both TCM and western medicine, I have to give some opinion. Some way of TCM does work, like acupuncture reduces pain, meditation improves one's sleep and relaxation, and herbs also have effectiveness etc. But most of TCM effect can be explained in the way of western medicine, other part is possible to be explained but not yet, and the rest is neither proved nor effective. I believe the first two parts of TCM. For western medicine, I believe I got high scores in study and think it's scientific, and think in the same way - every conclusion (like diagnosis) must have concrete proof or supporting facts. That is to say, I prefer and strongly believe western medicine, but not complete reject TCM. I've got into argument with a couple of my fellow country men who were majored in TCM by citing the example of surgery for Acute appendicitis (if no timely surge, patients die), asking them: how would you do this with TCM? They can't answer. In fact TCM is also systematic, but a common understanding of TCM among the public is distorted，exagerated or even fabricate
from nothing. For food, I eat according to western medicine thoery. How much protein, energy, water or vitamin a person need every day is the foundation that determines what I eat. And those hazardous or cancerous substances or fatty & salty stuff that impairs health are something I always stay away. Sometimes I have to face a battle between me and my non-western-medicine trained family members who care taste more than the contents of the food. Most other fellow people especially those from less educated areas (their average educational level during the past 300 years) decide what to eat according to what they have been eating by tradition that lasts many generations. They care the action of eating rather than what contents are put inside their stomach. Luckily about 30% of Chinese I know don't.
Jíliú.hé:
See someone else thinks traditional medicine is just unproven western medicine scientific method is what western medicine is plain and simple. If it is proven using the scientific method then it is western medicine.
Ok, I've read all of this thread, and I know for a fact ShiningBrow will either get angry or ask me to delete it, but I can't help myself. BS is BS in any form, and hokum is hokum.
Look, if a placebo effect works for people, whatever. If it works for a culture that believes in BS, FAHKING WHATEVER. It is NOT and NEVER WILL BE, scientific evidence that something works as a medicine. Hey, a lot of people in China outside of major cities believe smoking cigarettes has health benefits. Hey, I smoke, and I think cigarettes make me more youthful, healthy, and calm my nerves. Given EVIDENCE, will this be true for the placebo effect? If I BELIVE cigarettes will do this, will it?
As with all TCM arguments, there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF that any of this crap works.
Just because some tribal elders who can't let go of tradition says it does, well, it doesn't make it scientific FACT.
ShingingBrow will tell you that he's "seen" the "amazing effects" of TCM and say he's seen people be cured of XXX YYY, but he never NEVER provides any evidence to his claims other than "Well, I saw a person with cancer get cured by TCM!!!11111"
Sorry, that is not evidence. That is a witness account. And unlikely at best.
I know you hate it when I post because I use logic and reason
TCM has been around for a long time,maybe 3000 years. Some benefits have been discovered, but by trial and error. Amazingly, clinical trials of most TCM has been shown to be BS. Actually, Prayer has seen a better success rate than most TCM. This is why the survival rate in China (until the Jesuits arrived with wait for it, ACTUAL MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE) was 35.
TCM is witchcraft at best. There have been some "discoveries" derived from it, oh and is 4. Four. Four "medicines" from China that actually have passed clinical trials.
Four.
With 3000 years of history, 4.
Need I say more? Or tell me another story of a cancer patient that ate some green pills and lived.
Asshat.
Shining_brow:
Actually, MrT, I get angry because people don't use ENOUGH reason and logic - including yourself!
You start with a holier-than-thou, god-like omniscience that says "WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU!!!" (eleventy)
Qi? Bah, no scientific research has EVA found it - so it CAN'T.BE.REAL!!! (eleventy)
Sheesh - how many centuries did it take to find what we take for granted - viruses??
Another part of the ridiculousness of most arguments I've seen on here is the "there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF" crap.... well, depends on your definition of the word 'proof'! There is STACKS of research (Chinese AND Western Medical) which DOES provide evidence for TCM having discernible effects!
Try - JUST TRY - to look for it!
Now, I'm sure, once you DO actually start looking, AND finding that evidence, you're STILL going to say "Oh, but that's not PROOF. WE WANT PROOOOOOFFFFFF!!!!!!!"
(So, I demand, if you want that level of 'proof', to have the same level of proof for why western medicine doesn't work 100% of the time for all these 'facts' and 'known cures'! Not excuses - REASONS!)
And, before I get blasted AGAIN, if we're going to see if TCM actually works or not, why OH WHY would you use a western derived medical paradigm to test if something works or not??? When 'research' is done on TCM, (and it gives low results), it's because they get 100 people who all have a headache, They give some the stuff they're testing, some a fake (placebo), and others, nothing - and watch what happens! Then, those results mean something... Unfortunately, in TCM, a headache isn't just a headache - so, it's not treated as just a headache, and the treatment regime is based around it not being 'just a headache'.
As I asked last time this came up, about the same results for 'headache' in western medicine - and the various drugs for that... what, your aspirin didn't fix that brain tumour that was giving those headaches - well, obviously western medicine doesn't work!!!!! eleventy-one even!
So, I say again - fix the research so you're actually researching what you set out to research (ie, not WESTERN medical conditions with a form of TCM, but TCM conditions using TCM prescriptions - a concept that is lost on virtually ALL people who look at the current research and scream "IT DOESN"T WORK - IT'S ALL BS - IT'S ALL A SHAM AND A PHAKE!"
So, please, Mr.T - next time you post, try using a BIT MORE reason and logic.... and get off your high horse to demand we all meet YOUR requirements for 'proof' (which, btw, keeps changing - as I've said to you before....)
(oh, and don't get me started on 'witchcraft'... I'm a practicing pagan!)
No, I won't ask you to delete this post - this is an appropriate thread for it - the last thread WASN'T! That thread was someone asking for a location... this is debating the actual topic. I really hope you can see the difference (although, given your need to attack people for having different ideas to yourself, I guess not.. sad. Really sad...)
MrTibbles:
Can you provide any evidence? I found websites that say it works wonders, but they're all by "doctors", practitioners of TCM, or companies that sell TCM products. If you look through peer-reviewed articles, reports, and dissertations, sorry man, not a lot of evidence to support your claims.
Scientific method exists because it works. And while this is used extensively in the West, it's not totally a "western world" concept. Some consider Ibn al-Haytham, a Muslim born in Iraq in 965, to be the founder of the first written documents that explain the central concepts. That was during what people call "the Dark Ages" in the west. And this method DOES NOT just "take 100 people with a headache and give them medicine or a placebo." (which is a horrible analogy by the way - people with PERSISTANT headaches are usually given a cat scan and an MRI, which is a FAR more effective method of finding a tumor than feeling a pulse or smelling your breath - plus, aspirin never ever claimed it could cure tumors - your argument implies that TCM can be used to cure brain tumors, so your argument is ridiculous) It's MUCH more involved than that. YEARS of research (sometimes decades), animal testing (if needed), analysis of data, then clinical trials, more data collecting and analysis.
Amazingly, when using this concept to test TCM medicines, they break down the drugs into base compounds, test what these compounds do, test what careful mixtures of specific compounds do, test what the drug as a whole can do, etc. They RESEARCH it. Extensively. Any test, when done in this method, gets plotted onto a chart and the results most often look like a bell curve. The better something works, the further to the right the peak of the curve will appear. This is because there will ALWAYS be some people who have adverse effects to a medication, allergies, or perhaps no effect at all. Then for some, it will be HIGHLY effective. Like: Bad reaction - little to no effect - slightly effective - effective - highly effective - extremely effective. Then this is compared with the placebo chart.
When TCM scientists submit papers to the medical community (which they do) they often omit any negative findings, so their results are invalid. Even if they DO include them, their results and findings SHOULD be able to be reproduced by others in the medical community. They're often NOT able to reproduce these results. It has nothing to do with "using TCM methods to prove effectiveness". It has EVERYTHING to do with confirmation by multiple sources. This is how ALL science works, even medical science. When scientists REPEATEDLY TRY to prove something works and it doesn't, it becomes accepted fact. That's what a majority of TCM results are. Proven to be false claims.
Look, any illness, disease, problem, or affliction a person has can be researched, understood, and explained. Scientifically. So can medicine. Even TCM. The problem is, when it IS tested, it often FAILS. As I said above, with tons of research, testing, and scientific analysis only FOUR drugs have shown any effectiveness FOR THE DISEASES/ILLNESSESS/AFFLICTIONS THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE FOR. Not saying they didn't have any "effects", they just didn't do what they were supposed to do.
So, I know I'm not using enough logic and reason to just blindly accept that TCM works wonders because some people on the internet say so, but I think I'll stick with what the SCIENTISTS say
Shining_brow:
Odd... I DO find lots of articles with evidence! I wonder where you're looking... and what you're taking as 'evidence', rather than 'proof' (we've had this discussion before!)
No, there's not a lot of scientists doing research on this topic (especially in the west), but let's face it, there's not a lot of money in it (compared with western pharmaceuticals), and given your earlier observations of invalidated theories, why would there be??? Once the scientific community has invalidated a claim, it's highly unlikely they'll go back and do a pile of research on it.... even if that original research was faulty, which I claim it is!
Why do I claim this? Because of the next statement I made that you have interpreted in a really odd way... my analogy of aspiriin and brain tumour was the idea that one treatment (aspirin) will treat ALL conditions (headache) without actually looking at the underlying cause. I had no intention of saying TCM could cure a tumour (I have NO idea where you got that from in my analogy...).
TCM does NOT work on western medical principles - so why should it get tested using a western medicine paradigm??? Western medicine says a headache is a headache - and, rarely and only more recently, relatively speaking, has it bothered to look at underlying causes. TCM doesn't talk about hypertension, thyroid imbalances, tumours or stress... it uses other things - Liver Fire Rising, Yin Deficiency. etc. (for headache, there are at least 9 different types of headache). Given this difference, don't you think the research should be more focused on 'does TCM treatment XYZ prove effective in treating Liver Fire Blazing resulting in headache?' - rather than (as has been the case in western research of TCM) 'Does this TCM treatment of this WESTERN diagnosis of a condition have any effects?"
Seriously, NO research paper can be considered reputable or worthy of reading if it doesn't even know how to frame it's questions correctly - to actually research what it sets out to look for!
So, when you go looking for TCM research by your 'scientists' (and I put that in quotes, because of what I just said - not actually testing for the right thing!), do ANY of them actually research from a TCM perspective? Or from a western perspective???
Your descrption of what happens with herbs is the PERFECT example of what I'm talking about!!!
So, reproducibility in the western medical community is going to interesting... how many western medical doctors know how to effectively treat Liver Fire Blazing? How many know even what the S&S are?? (why would they bother to find out, when they a) already know better, b) 'know' it's all hokum, and c) can just write out a script for a pill???)
Given what I just said (about actually researching from a TCM perspective, and with TCM knowledge and understanding) Is it really surprising that most of the research coming out is from the TCM community? To put it bluntly - the people who you want to do the 'right' sort of research know NOTHING about how it's supposed to work! And, their findings come back negative... OMG, what a surprise!!! (just as not surprising as, say, giving an aspirin for ALL types of headache). Which 'scientific' explanations will you accept for all illnesses, diseases, problems and afflictions? Which explanations and understandings (and thus, research) will you accept? Only the western?? "Oh, 'Liver Fire Blazing' is complete hogwash... give me a western explanation!!!" Isn't this what you're basically saying??
Just so you don't think I'm completely ignorant, or living in the Dark Ages - yes, of course if someone has persistent headaches, CT's and MRI's would be called for. Appropritate treatment is just that - appropriate. Why can't that treatment, and diagnosis, come from both sides of the fence? I've got stacks of treatment protocols at my disposal for persistent headaches - depending on my diagnosis (ie, TCM). Guess what - they're effective when given for what I actually try to treat.
THIS is the level of logic and reasoning I'm expecting people to use!!! You wouldn't get a biologist to search for su-atomic particles, would you?? So why would you get a western scientist to look for TCM effects?? WRONG FIELD OF EXPERTISE!!!!
BTW - please remember, TCM isn't just herbal medicine.
MrTibbles:
Scientific Theory works on everything. EVERYTHING. That's the beauty of it.
I'll ask AGAIN. Share those links you've supposedly found. I'd be more than willing to look at them.
So, your explanation is to use a system which is based on ancient mythology (hun spirits in the liver? I mean, yes, this is SCIENCE!) based on a pre-scientific understanding of disease and how the human body functions to show how TCM works? Oh yes, this is EVIDENCE! And PROOF! OF COURSE that would produce positive results showing it works. A flawed system to "prove" something else flawed is not proof nor evidence. A TCM perspective? Please. You complain about a lack of logic and reason? And you don't see the obvious flaw in your statement?
Liver Fire Blazing? Wow, this is completely contradictory to ANY current and reputable knowledge of anatomy and biology. Yes, it's hogwash. That's exactly what I'm saying. Most of the symptoms "described" by this total and complete bogus "science" can amazingly be accurately diagnosed with western medicine and it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITS LIVING IN YOUR SPLEEN. Again, absolutely 100% it is BULL$H!T.
Bleeding people has been abandoned in Western medicine because it is a useless practice. IT IS STILL PRACTICED IN TCM. Why? Because they did it 3000 years ago. Eleventy whatever you think that is that proves your useless points.
PS - Scientific method has been applied to ALL ASPECTS of TCM, even the feeling of pulses, accupuncture, you name it. Even if it's the practice of "diagnosis". IT FAILED.
Sorry, the only way TCM will ever be a valid form of medicine is if "meridians" and "qi" can be scientifically proven. They will never be because they have already been proven to be HOKUM. They contradict FACTS about the human body and how it actually functions. Just like the concept of humors was abandoned in western medicine. THEY DON'T EXIST.
So, you don't like that I'm not open to believing in magic and superstition. Fine. I'm ok with that. Me telling people MY BELIEFS is a stupid and pointless venture because it doesn't agree with YOUR beliefs.
Whatever.
Shining_brow:
Western Scientific method should be good for explaining most things. It, however, has one huge flaw - people! People such as yourself who are so adamant about the methods that they believe they CAN'T be wrong - and use the "we didn't find it, so it CAN'T exist' mentality. In this particular case, 50 (or less) years of scientific research has failed to find Qi, Jing, Xue (blood), etc, so IT CAN'T EXIST!!! That's a pretty strong claim you've got going there.
You don't even limit it by saying it's an opinion... or admit that there is a POSSIBILITY of being wrong... you KNOW!
Do you know what western scientific research has said about TCM?? (no, what it really said...). It said "in these instances of this type of research, done in this time and place, etc, we found this result". It has NEVER said "This doesn't exist". It has NEVER said "this doesn't work"... All it said was "we didn't find what was suggested we would find". You have a serious issue with how the western scientific method actually does! Research does NOT make claims about anything other than what came out of the research... PEOPLE DO!
So, off my rant, and to actual argument... yes. Use this 'ancient' method for assessing disease-states, and apply 'pre-scientific' methods, to see what happens. Do you know how long it took for something as simple as meditation to be 'researched' before it became acknowledged that it actually has benefits to a person - after DECADES or CENTURIES of ridicule from the western scientists. To do 'correct' research (as I've mentioned NUMEROUS TIMES - all of which I notice get ignored when I've mentioned it before... how odd!) is to take a number of patients all complaining of the same problem (eg, hypertension), do a TCM diagnosis on them and take those with the same disease-state with a similar constitution (ie, not people who will have opposing constitutions - and thus, the TCM diagnosis and treatment should effectively be the same.. equating to western medicine needing to differentiate between migraine from stress, to that from, say, allergy), apply correct treatment protocols, and compare them to a) controls (ie, NO TCM treatment - either with or without western medicine), b) placebo treatments, an c) 'sham' TCM treatments (in some cases, not easy to do...). Why did I choose hypertension as a suggested issue (which, obviously, is a western medical problem)? Because it can be objectively measured! Migraines, headaches, pain, etc are all subjective conditions... not helpful!
You don't like the idea of Liver Fire Blazing? Well, tough! This is part of the paradigm... it's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE western medicine!!! The best you'll get is where the 2 cross-over for research purposes...
Now, how about, BEFORE you bash the 'beliefs' behind the methodology (and THUS, bash the whole system), we find out if using those beliefs has any significance??? Sure, the idea of the Hun may be BS, and have no place in 'real' medicine - but, surely we need to find out f the diagnosis and treatment using this paradigm actually work. If so, then we can look at possible explanations. I'd have thought this pretty logical.... obviously, you don't think so (please refer back to my opening paragraph...)
You seriously confuse me with your last paragraph.... So, you think it's ok for you to bash 'magic and superstition', but not ok for me (or others) who believe their methods to do so? You feel quite ok with insulting people who think differently to you ("asshat"). Someone has used TCM, and had positive results for a condition that western medicine didn't help with after years (or decades) of trying, and you want to insult them????
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085832/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17620944
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-7141.2008.07565.x/abstract;jsessionid=3267470A72841A26B125C5DD44A43044.d03t03http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.1999.5.371
These are all META- analyses... so, not the precise research (individualised ones that you're looking for!) But, they're all quite willing to go into the limitations of the studies. Peer-reviewed? Yep! Evidence? Yep! Proof... nope! Will YOU accept them? NOPE!
I did a post earlier regrding a research journal dedicated to TCM research... what are your thoughts on it? I think, you'd say "what a waste of time and money". After all, you did say 'The only way TCM will become a valid form of medicine is if qi and meridians get scientifically proven. But they never will, because they have already been proven HOKUM".... So - which is it? They should be researched? Or, too late, already proven not to exist? You can't really have it both ways, you know!!!
(done for now, cos my internet sucks!)
MrTibbles:
I had written a large reply to you, but apparently accidently clicking outside of the comment box on this site closes it and deletes everything that you've written. It's a lovely feature I wish more websites had. Oddly, I thought that's what the X in the upper corner was for, but apparently the rest of the screen is a giant "close" button as well.
I'm tired now. I will offer rebuttal when I'm not. PS my internet also sucks right now, so that's also a factor. Hope you're having as much fun as I am.
Shining_brow:
Yeah, I'd noticed that in that past with a couple of comments I posted as well. I reported to admin.. said it would be looked into, but don't know of anything further. Totally sucks, cos of the need to scroll up and down to get the right arguments, quotes, etc etc... :(
Fun? Sorta.... I like sticking to the argument, not attacking people (ie, insults)
Okay, I have a slight case of dyslexia that causes me every now and then to misread something if I just give it a quick glance.
For example, the main question here asks,
'Chinese biologically different' to explain TCM?'
I read:
'Chinese biologically different' to explain TMD?'
I nearly pissed myself laughing.
Jíliú.hé:
wait did you mean sex induced lock jaw, because i do not think any Chinese man has ever gotten that.
Xpat.John:
TMD is short for 'Ta Ma De" in Mandarin. It is a fairly nasty insult and one of the first things most people learn when they live in China. :)
Jíliú.hé:
just looked
it means "His Mother's". Used as "Fuck!"
so i guess you did not mean a form of lock jaw
Jíliú.hé:
wait so his mom is a whore becouse of bad genes i guess that sort of funny
Let's try to reason a bit about Western medicine and TCM. What I say is deeply arguable.
Western medicine is based on the observation of symptoms (headache, fever, diarrhea, vomit, pain, etc), then by analysis (urine, blood, saliva, etc) and finally ends with a possible prescription of drugs that may treat, heal or reduce these symptoms. If not, then usually, more tests are made until, the doctor can know almost to a certainty what the problem is and maybe prescribe other drugs. It doesn't mean you can be cured or treated for everything.
In order to prescribe drugs, symptoms must be in some way quantified (how high is the temperature, for how long the patient felt the pain in the stomach,).
TCM or other oriental medicines is essentially based on the observation of the symptoms and provides directly a medical treatment for it based on herbs and other substances, without doing any other medical tests. Then the treatment may work or not. But, if it works, you don't really know why; if it's doesn't work, you also don't really know why.
Though biology and evolution has produced different races of human being, with all their physiological particularities to adapt to local climate and environment (color of the skin depends on the production of melamine), a human body remains a human body, and everything can be explained by cause and consequences if not globally at least on a microscopic level.
Chinese people may think that if you eat the heart of an animal, it would also be beneficial for your own heart. The problem with our Western mind is that the theory is so simple and based on no facts, except observation maybe, that it is hard to believe in it. Now let's analyze it through our Western eyes. What if, the heart of each living animal contains some special nutrients that, because of their uniqueness, are eventually good for a human heart. The same that if you lack Vitamin C, you need to eat orange. So why not with any kind of food.
I also think that the placebo effect has also his own great part in healing and curing diseases. The brain is a huge and unknown machine capable to make some extraordinary things that it wouldn't be impossible that you may be cured of a terrible disease just because you believe it. Western medicine has still no explanations on how some tumors may remit without reasons in some patients, while in other it doesn't despite the prescription of the same drugs.
We are far to know everything from the human body and especially the causality of each cell at work. As a Western person who believes in facts and logic of events, I don't believe in general TCM statements (eat the heart of that, and you will feel better), except if it can provide me factual information or explanations why this is good for that, such as a Western doctor may tell you to eat oranges if you lack Vitamin C, because oranges contains lots of Vitamin C. That is a fact and you can rely on that fact. The same for acupuncture, if you tell me that by pressing on some point of your body, you can alter the flow of the blood in such part of the body, or influence your brain reaction in perceiving pain which in turns may have your pancreas to produce more insulin or your brain to produce more endorphin to help you in recovering your health problem, then it starts to be more factual and believable.
GuilinRaf:
You nailed it re: the human mind.
They all it the "placebo effect" yet they discount it because they skip over the fact that somehow, the placebo WORKED!
Dr. 1: We gave him a sugar pill to cure his malaria and in 5 hours he was dancing.
Dr. 2: Paf! The Placebo effect.
Me: "Um guys, it still woked....?"
Now, having said that, there is NO WAY that I will EVER allow ANYONE to perform "guasha" on me AGAIN!
In Yangshan （雁山） just outside of Guilin, they have this "Medicinal Botanical Garden" where they grow and test Traditional Chinese Medicine "recipes" and subject them to Western medical research. The guide, an Australian, was really excited as she gave us the tour telling us about the many "old wives remedies" that actually work!
kchur:
Lot's of modern medicine comes from old African and Native north/south American cures. Inoculation comes from Turkey, and various things come from India. And of course, Modern Medicine is the result of people gradually taking a more scientific approach to a mixture of Middle Eastern, European and Jewish folk remedies that had melted together as a result of the Sephardic diaspora, with some Greek mystic herbology thrown in. Medical researches spent a couple hundred years sorting the wheat from the chaff, and the birth Modern Medicine is practically just the result of people shifting most of the medical traditions from around the world through the scientific method. Why Chinese medicine never entered into the process, I dunno, except to say probably because of all that general isolation and protectionism the Chinese/Manchus so desperately tried to keep up for so long.
But as some guy said: "They have a word for traditional medicine that works: medicine."
