Many children are now learning mandarin in Australia as are most Chinese learning English in China. It is all about people from all cultures wishing to communicate and most realising that for commercial and emplyment reasons in the world economy that these are now the 2 most important languages. I do not think any of us on here will see a decline in Mandarin, but most will see a large increase in Westerners who will learn it. I would say though that I believe most other Chinese dialects will decline more rapidly as the older generations pass.

chinese is not doomed to die but chinese think simply because the high number of people speaking means thst it is an international language. i think as international languages go it's english spanish, french japanese. chinese is only spoken by chinese people in china, it just so happens that there are 1.5 bil of them

I'm a little shocked at the tone of the OP. I don't think Chinese is going anywhere for a while. But I think that English will remain the world's trade language and just so you know, English does not have simple grammar. It's one of the most complicated languages on the planet. Back in the 80's when Japan became the #2 economy many schools in the West started offering Japanese. That eventually died out and I'm inclined to think that the recent craze of learning Mandarin will too.

The problem with Chinese (and I mean as a written language - spoken "Chinese" is made up of a bunch of totally different languages) besides from the obvious computing issues already stated, is that it's pretty much fixed and will not grow and evolve unless official changes to the language are made. It's been like this for a while. For example, train. 火车 -huoche - literally "fire cart" = train.

Any "new" word or concept usually needs to be made from already existing characters. Prime examples:

量子力学 - liang zi li xue - "measure/quantity - offspring/seed - power/capacity - knowledge/school" = (loosely) the study of the amount of power from (inferred from yuanzi - "origin seeds") atoms = Quantum Mechanics.

航天飞机 - hang tian fei ji - navigate/boat - sky/heavens - fly - machine = flying machine that navigates the heavens = Space Shuttle.

Well, at least they're slightly descriptive, but they're bulky and if you don't happen to know that these 4 characters put together mean this specific thing, well too bad for you. There are other flying machines that navigate the heavens...

The "naming process" is remarkably similar to how the Vatican comes up with modern Latin terms for things even though Latin is technically a "dead" language.

In media advertising, sometimes companies will "create" new characters, usually by adding a radical to give a specific sound to a character that means a specific thing:

Here's a good link explaining that: http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/mojicakes.html

But keep in mind, this isn't exactly creating a new character, it's more like in English how I could write "kewl" to mean "cool" or "donutz" to mean "doughnuts". You wouldn't ever find these characters in a dictionary.

In most spoken variants, there is also a set number of actual spoken words. In Mandarin, just over 400 combinations of initials and finals X 4 tones = just over 1,600 actual sounds, all of which are already used multiple times (look up any tone variation of "shi" in a dictionary - different character, but the same sound means more than 1 thing). So now, some names are phonetic pronunciations of other words, which in itself is just confusing:

可口可乐 - ke kou ke le - can mouth can happy - Coca Cola. Sounds similar spoken, but if you didn't know what a coke was and you tried to read this, what the hell would it mean?!?!

Anyway, "Chinese" is only useful in China, and often only useful in a specific city or region.

English is useful just about anywhere on the planet (even China). The hopes of making Chinese as common as English is also just silly and wishful thinking. English is everywhere simply because it can evolve and grow and absorb other languages. Chinese cannot.

I think it's pretty obvious where this is going.

I wont get into a debate about the complexities of English grammar compared to that of the Spanish, the German, the French, etc. I will just say as far as grammar is concerned the English language has shrugged off the archaic verb systems that hold sway over other latin/germanic languages.

English spelling hasn't evolved very well, so I understand that there are difficulties for non native speakers to dominate it. Lots of countries think we don't write the way we speak, I'm inclined to agree.

The English language also has more vocal sounds than other languages which makes pronunciation difficult to say the least.

As far as English being the most complicated language on the planet. That is just bollox. If it were so complicated it would never have spread like it did. Even if the Chinese take over the world tomorrow their language would not spread like the English.

No doubt people are learning Chinese (I am!) but I'm not talking about tomorrow when I talk about the future. My way of seeing things is that Chinese as with most other languages will disappear as we know it. It is becoming apparent that Spanish and English are engulfing the world.

I say Spanish because I read that soon there will be more Spanish speakers in America than English speakers and the white American will become a minority in 2 or 3 generations. If the U.S. continues to be a world power then we might just see Spanish become the worlds number one language. I'm just theorising.

As far as Chinese is concerned: they need to ditch the pictogram system and start to use a better method for writing. Pinyin should be the official way to write Chinese in my opinion.

So much to write so little time....I'll be back.

"I say Spanish because I read that soon there will be more Spanish speakers in America than English speakers"

Assuming "America" to mean the US, uhhh, NO.

82% of Americans are native English speakers so I'm not sure where you read that article, but who ever wrote is is on crack.

mrtibbles in a way i sort of agree with him, usa is allowing illegal immigrantsfrom latin america to funnel into the country unchecked. anytime someone tries to say we should curb illegal immigration and deport the illegal immigrants in the country, they get labeled racist. illegal immigrants sadly have built a strong political base in america. as the usa continues to crumble economically the native speakers will slowly leave to go to europe or canada or elsewhere. the bush years saw the biggest exodus of american families from america. our military is already starting to rely on illegal immigrants to fill the ranks. fall of rome all over again.
but where i do disagree with GB is that by the time spanish overtakes english in america america would have fallen to the point of being a second tier country or a low first tier country . china will be the the 1 superpower but we all will still need to learn english because chinese is too limited as a language.
then comes the end of the world:((

"I say Spanish because I read that soon there will be more Spanish speakers in America than English speakers"

I read this a long time ago. I would love to point you in the direction of the original source but it was just too long ago.

I was reading about, as crimochina said, immigration, but also about birth control and ethnic minorities.

The article explained that there has been a boom in the number of Latin American's residing in the U.S and that they have overtaken the 'black' community as the largest minority. There was also something explained about political campaigns and the importance of the Latin vote.

The article explained the difference between the strong catholic culture of the Latin Americans as a pose to that of the 'white' American. This led the article to a conclusion that, with the Latin Americans, everything is family orientated. On the other hand, the philosophy of 'white' Americans (in general) was to pursue their careers. 'white' American families prefer to have a single child on average whereas Latin Americans have babies in abundance.

The birth rate of the different ethnic portions of people residing in the U.S.A shows that there is a pattern of growth which indicates that in 2 or 3 generations there will be more Latinos than any other ethnicity in the U.S.A.. 'Whites' will become a minority and Latin's the majority. The will control the country's democracy in a similar way the 'whites do' now.

Spanish will more than likely become, as generations pass, more dominant than English in the U.S.A.

I honestly hope this doesn't happen but it makes sense, does it not?

If anyone does any research on this topic, post it here.
I for one find it very interesting.

Golden Boy. I find a possible flaw in your logic. If it takes two to three generations for this to happen, wont those 2 or 3 geherations grow up in the US and attend schools where English is taught, In that case even if they are Latins by ethnicity they will be English language as a first language speakers. So while the majority of the US population may be able to speak Spanish, pretty much ALL of the population will be able to speak English and as such it will remain the spoken language of business, Education etc. Or are you suggesting that there is a probability that once the majority of voters become Latin and Oscar De La Hoya 111 becomes president that his first act will be to ban English in schools and proclaim Spanish as the Nation language.

if you ever been in a usa school you would know that you can go all the way through high school without learning english thanks to mandatory bilingual education

as an american it is tough to admit GB is right many latins are uncounted in the census it could be double whats reported

Woody, It will take 2-3 generations for there to be more latinos in the USA. How many generations it will take for Spanish to overhaul English is unclear.

I will however point out that we are all proud people in the world and the Latin American's will always hold onto their culture and only tolerate the one they are forced to adapt to.

They will always teach their children Spanish just as I would teach my children English here in China.

I see a possible 'Canadian' thing happening in the U.S. Two languages at least as a first evolution.

I spoke about birth rates and crimochina commented on uncontrolled immigration. Add the two together and you have a time bomb, tick, tock.

I may be right; I may be wrong; I may be neither. One thing is for sure: the U.S.A will change as we know it.

This makes ZERO sense.

Look, if 15% of the population is Hispanic, that's still a minority. According to the US census bureau, the Hispanic population of the US should reach about 25% of the population in 2050.

Mind you, those figures don't count language, just ethnicity, so again, dig deal.

But, also according to the last census, more than HALF of the current Hispanic population of the US can speak basic English or better, and more than half of them are fluent or are native English speakers.

3rd generation children of Hispanic immigrants often only know English.

Either way, this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Forgot this:

This argument assumes that these numbers are going to change drastically and somehow the entire population of Mexico is going to invade the US or something.

Of course, this isn't happening. Check the most recent stats: The economy in the US sucks right now, and illegal immigration has dropped off accordingly, so even the official numbers are less than expected.

This argument also assumes that Hispanic people in the US will also simply refuse to learn English and force the US to cater to their language preference. If this happens, please remember that there are tons of people with guns in the US that already enjoy taking potshots at "Mexicans" and that would just push them over the edge. See Arizona for reference.

i dont know why ppl made it complicated , itz very simple, yea, maybe compared to english ,chinese ,especially written chinese is damn difficult . and for a long time , it will be changed gradually , but doomed to die?! it depends! chinese learn english just becoz it rules not becoz itz simple !so....we dont know!

I would like to throw another ingredient into the pot. I thought that difficult or easy depends on your native language.

Now I do not know about Chinese people but I know that for example:

For Spanish people it is easier to learn Italian and vice versa, even Portuguese, and French.
Give them German or English, however, and they will complain it is difficult.

No explanation needed as to why.

I read that Dutch is the closest existing language to English, how close I do not know nor do I know if it is phonetically close or grammatically. I imagine it would be easier than Italian for English speakers to learn. Even German would be easier for us to pronounce.

So is Chinese difficult for everyone? There are aspects of Chinese that are quite simple to understand and learn, maybe not the accent nor written.

I think that Doomed to die is not just a question of easy or difficult rather I put foreword another explanation and that is that languages that succeed must be logical and 'easy to a point'.

@Mr T, I'll get back to you when I have time to delve into a bit of research, as up to now I've been simply trying to remember something I read a long time ago. Even so I still believe that there is some kind of truth in there, maybe just the time estimates are off mark. Having said that If so many Hispanics speak English and some of them only English, Why are there more and more Spanish speakers in the U.S. every year.

Another thing I remember reading once was that in a state or some states in the south of the U.S.A. they put up (official) signs and notices in Spanish and English.

Some states do. Just go to any ATM or call an automated system.

Remember though that Spanish is just behind English in being wide spread, so it sort of makes sense.

Anyway, with native, bi-lingual and EFL speakers, 1/4th of the population of the world speaks English, and this number is going up.

@Mr T
Good answer as always. I am not surprised your answer was answer of the day as it was fully deserved.

It seems to me we might actually meet somewhere in the middle and agree in the end. First I will inform myself before speaking anymore as I would like my arguement to be valid.

Moving back to the topic what do you think of my statement about logic. For me this is what all people have in common (maybe excluding China) and that is why I believe English has and will withstand the test of time. Chinese on the other hand may just become another part of impotent Chinese culture. Obviously I'm talking way in the future because China has a firm hand, keeping
China in China and with China.

Thats the reason I gave the thumbs up to your post about a possible Chinese InterLAN.

Hey, thanks. I'm not trying to slam anyone and I also enjoy your posts here. It's nice when people have actual ideas and thoughts and aren't posting things like "whychinahavenothavethisorthathavesomething?!!?!!?!!111111"

I'm pretty sure we actually do agree on a lot of this .

Mr Tibbles: 可口 means tasty. and 可乐 is a transliteration for cola.

If an English speaker has no idea what gongfu is, then how will he know what the hell you are talking about when you say "Kungfu"

Golden Boy: I actually think the Chinese input system on a computer is very efficient. Maybe you are working with bunk software.

I personally it is easier to learn highly specialized words in China...the characters just make more sense. For example, if a 9 year old English native speaker reads the word pneumonia for the first time, he will have to read the definition to understand the meaning; if a 9 year old English native speaker reads the word 肺炎(fei yan), or pneumonia, for the first time, he will understand its meaning through the two characters...肺fei means lung and 炎yan means inflammation. Also, in many ways, Chinese is a more efficient language than English, especially when it comes to what can be said and implied in 4 word Chinese idioms.

Saying that, English is still undoubtedly the lingua franca of the world. It is easy to learn when compared to Chinese but learners worldwide struggle with English. It's a task that takes years of hard work.

The power of English has more to do with the power of America and England than anything else. The French language has been and will continue to fade because a large amount of French people speak great English. That's not the case in China. Anway, as China grows in power, so too will its language.

Everything dies, baby, that's a fact.

Ok, I didn't see this thread until now, so....

Firstly, please remember that being monolingual is a minority situation in this world. Most Europeans, educated Africans, Middle-Easterns, and Asians, are multi-lingual. So, in that respect, all talk of how the USA will fare is really, based on ignorance.

So, too, is the idea that Spanish will take over the US. Take a look at any decent socio-linguistic research done over few decades... they ALL point to the fact that each generation (of immigrants) successively adopts the local (national) language, to the point that the 3rd generation can't even understand their grandparents' native language. Those Mexicans and Latinos will face the same situation. Sure, there are going to be pockets where that language (Spanish) survives - and does well - but the dominant language in the USA (and the REST OF THE WORLD) is English.... Thus, given the opportunities, English will remain the main language, no matter what! (see below...) What is most likely to happen, is that most people will become much more bilingual, and have 2 (or more) native languages that they have complete command of. English still has a lot of power, and advantages, that Spanish simply doesn't have.

RE: Chinese. Hell, even after 5000 years they still don't have one language for the entire country!! What's going to happen in the next few hundred to change all that??

Secondly, anyone who learns English needs to learn 26 characters. Anyone who learns Chinese needs to learn at least 2400 characters (to survive well enough.. there are obviously more, if you want to get into deeper philosophy and literature, and the occasional situation).

Then add the tones. Tonal langauges for the non-tonal native is a hard thing to get, compared to non-tonal languages for the tonal native... given this, which way do you think it will go? Especially since that small difference in pronunciation makes a HUGE difference to your business dealings!

Let's look at Africa.... English has become an official langauge for one simple reason - it stops wars! If one of the local dialects was chosen as the official language, then some other tribe would be up in arms (also the reason why Swahili is also an official language). Most Africans speak at least 2 languages, if not 3 or 4.... fluently! (Home dialect, official language 1 - often Swahili..if they're educated to high school level, official language 2 - English. Also depending on which country, they also have French, Dutch, Portuguese... and maybe another local dialect). Do you really think Chinese is going to make much of an in-road there???

India is in a similar situation, where many Indians speak 3 languages. Chinese has no REASON to enter into the world language domain to the extent that English has... it doesn't, quite simply, have anything new to offer (other than more money... but, if Chinese want to trade with the rest of the world, they learn English... instead of having to learn 16 other different world langauges...).

English will continue to dominate, and given that a) every Chinese child (as well as most around the rest of the world) start to learn English from a young age, and b) English offers the best opportunities (as a language) around the world, and c) it's getting easier and easier to communicate to people from around the world (much less to actually GO overseas)... China will adapt!

In all honesty though, I expect to see English change.... some of its grammar is too complicated, and the spelling rules are horrendous (with all those exceptions). Spanglish is a more likely result... Spanish for the much easier and basics, and pronunciation.English for a lot more of the vocabulary and concepts. I also expect a world language will incorporate many new letters, and will become more phonetic. At the moment, English has about 40 different sounds... we still need to add in other European and African langauges' sounds for completeness (say, /ch/, /tsch/ etc...)

There will be a lot more Chinese words, but like in many languages, English will get adopted into it- even with transliteration (such as, coca-cola... a completely meaningless term if you didn't know what it was!)

Btw, I teach my students just how important Greek and Latin is, and to use it for etymology, and to help work out new vocabulary!!! (Can't really do that with Chinese!)

I believe that Mandarin should be a school subject in other countries. To have three main topics in schools is daft beyond belief. When I went to school we had only three language teachers: French, German and Spanish. I was put into French and German even though I had no interest in the subjects whatsoever (Nevertheless I did rather well in my German GCSE's). I was never given the choice to do Spanish, it was made for me.

But the truth is, our nations are actually ignorant of other cultures whether they want to admit to it or not. Unless it is a private institution or someone trying something new, I feel that children of tomorrow will continually be forced to learn languages that they do not want.

From a young age I have always wanted to travel to Asia, Japan and China specifically.

A nation should be allowed to keep its spoken tongue regardless of how the world changes around it. This is what helps keep its traditions and historical importance in check. A zebra wont change its stripes, why should China be forced to change its language?

I think Mandarin is an important language to learn and it will not 'die' anytime soon. I think even languages like German or French would die off before Mandarin.

In my opinion, Mandarin is perhaps in the top 3 to learn right now in terms of usefulness and potential benefits. Depending on where you live and what you do for a living though of course.

They speak Chinese on Firefly. That takes place in the distant future, right? Vis-a-vis Chinese is not doomed (the same cannot be said for earth though). Instead, its epic swear words will combine with the English language.